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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 05, 2008 10:18 PM |
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Alcibiades' crazy Heroes 6 vision
Everybody else is doing it, so why can't we I?
I don't remember if that was how this project startet, but it might well have been. All I know is that once I startet thinking about a Heroes 6 concept, the whole project turned out to be every bit as huge as I had feared, and then some - and at the time of writing, I'm not even close to having finished everything I want to do. But hey, it has to start somewhere.
I'm not quite sure yet where this thread is going, but I think this first post will just cover the basics, and then more detailed descriptions will follow through the thread. I'll try to link to details from the master post, at least that's my intention now.
Overall framework
As this is a Heroes 6 concept, and not a Heroes 3 or 4 concept, I will take my base in Heroes 5, which is after all the latest chapter of the instalment (yes, that was a jab to wake you up, Moonlith, but I mean it with love  ). This means that the geography, mythology and game mechanics will for large parts be based on Heroes 5 – and then developed to bring the game forward (although one can always discuss which direction is the right to work in).
World setting and General Mythology
As general setting for the game I use the “Dark Messiah” map, which was for a long time speculated to have Heroes 6 relevance (which later turned out not to be the case, according to the developers) – none-the-less, it forms a very good setting for continuing the Heroes 5 storyline, as we have a number of new nations apparent here.
The Mythology will be based solidly in the Heroes 5 Myth Of Creation, which forms an admirable mythological setting for the game and far surpasses everything we’ve seen before, if you ask me. Some minor changes or adaptations might be done, one or two cases remain unsettled at the time of speaking.
Game Content
The current plans for the project includes the following:
- 10 different Factions, each with 2 Hero classes.
- More than 400 creatures (beat that!).
- 16 different general skills with more than 200 different perks.
- 6 schools of magic with more than 100 different spells.
Plus exciting new alignment concepts, creature abilities and much more!
As a first spoiler, I will reveal that the factions will be:
Haven (post 10 on page) inhabited by Humans and their allies, the Angels.
Inferno (post 12 on page) inhabited by Demons and Devils.
Necropolis (post 14 on page) inhabited by the Undead.
Sylvan (post 20 on page) inhabited by Wood Elves and their allied magical beasts.
Dungeon (post 11 on page) inhabited by Dark Elves and their enslaved beasts.
Academy (post 12 on page) inhabited by Dark Humans and their animated servants.
Fortress (post 5 on page) inhabited by Dwarves and their elemental allies.
Bastion (post 17 on page) inhabited by Lizardmen and their beasts.
Stronghold (post 15 on page) inhabited by Orcs and their allied brutes.
Sanctuary (post 4 on page) inhabited by Nagas and their allied hydrophile beasts.
For an overview of the creatures and factions, click the thumbnail below - for complete descriptions of creature abilities, follow links above.
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What will happen now?
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 05, 2008 10:38 PM |
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Everybody else is doing it, so why can't we?
yes, that was a jab to wake you up, Moonlith, but I mean it with love
That's what she said!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Alright, back on track: This proposal is alright, but I don't think Dwarves would ally with the Elementals, it just doesn't make any sense!
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 05, 2008 10:56 PM |
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I didn't say Dwarves are with Elementals.  You are reading between the lines.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 06, 2008 12:42 AM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 00:50, 06 Mar 2008.
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No offence, but for the love of Krohn, please don't use the old beta map as a Heroes VI build. Sure, it looks great. But it doesn't have any relevance, nor will it ever.
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which forms an admirable mythological setting for the game and far surpasses everything we’ve seen before, if you ask me.
My good man, I have just lost all of the vast respect I once held for you. 
Sorry, couldn't resist 
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted March 06, 2008 01:11 AM |
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No relevance? It'll pick up where DM left off. Why not continue with Ashan. Alc, its been a long time coming. Nice proposal, nice and flashy. But that's all it is: Nice and Flashy
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Steel Yourself for War
Next Set: Mirrodin
Beseiged
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 06:43 AM |
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Looks interesting (I've never played HoMM5 so I probably wouldn't understand some of it), but that many creatures I mean, 10 towns * 7 levels * 3 creatures per level gives 210, so where are the other 190+ coming from?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 06, 2008 07:33 AM |
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Looks interesting, but that many creatures I mean, 10 towns * 7 levels * 3 creatures per level gives 210, so where are the other 190+ coming from?
That's what you'll see later when I fill in the contents.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 06, 2008 02:20 PM |
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No relevance? It'll pick up where DM left off. Why not continue with Ashan.
You don't understand what I mean. The map has no relevance to our current Ashan - for the seventh time, it's a beta map, not connected to the current storyline and certainly not applicable to a sequel or whatever.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 02:51 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 06, 2008 04:40 PM |
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Ok, to make a few comments on the above:
- Forget the map, it doesn't matter at all. I just included it because it looks cool and serves the needs, but it's without importance, as I'm not writing campaigns.
- There will be 400 creatures + Neutrals, as it looks now. The number of neutrals will be 10-20 I think, but that's not quite decided. To see how I get to this number, read below. 
I had initially planned to do a bit more background and alignment thingy, but I think I'll start out by presenting the first faction instead, to answer a few unspoken questions. This will be the classical Haven.
Units are presented with upgrades and abilities, but stats are not made. I don't think stats will come, as the pure numbers hold little interest to me.
To see unit details, click on the image with the basic name.
Heroes: Knight and Cleric (surprise).
Alignment: Good, Lawful, Conservative.
Portefolios: Life, Community, Water.
Opposed Faction: Inferno.
Details about Hero classes and Hero skills will arrive later.
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What will happen now?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2008 05:06 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 17:09, 06 Mar 2008.
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Niiiice... Only one thing to say: let the bashing begin
Level 1
Good overall, but I think you meant to give cowardice to the farmer/landlord upgrades and not to conscript/militia.
Level 2
Crossbowmen don't go well with manoeuvre too well. While it makes them fierce opponents, especially marksmen, a crossbow is a big heavy weapon that's hard to operate "on the run".
Level 3
I understand that Long weapon does not give the ability to hit 2 units, right?
Unlike all other levels, the different upgrades of the pikeman seem to be both very deffensive and serve more or less the same role in the army.
Level 4
Fine as is.
Level 5
Fine as is.
Level 6
Fine as is.
Level 7
Fine as is.
Level 8
So, Master of Wrath teaches the hero (Mass) Divine Vengeance and (Mass) Righteous Might?
P.S. in the first post you wrote "allied magical beasts" twice. Creativity crisis got the best of you?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 06, 2008 05:08 PM |
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This should be interesting IMO, and I like your Haven line-up
For Undead, if you need some creature, here are some:
1) Shadows
2) Blackguards
3) Doom Knights
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also alternative names for zombies: Slurper, Cadavre
why "Light Elves" and not "Wood Elves" -- I thought Sylvan meant Woods? besides we've got a 'light' faction already
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted March 06, 2008 05:14 PM |
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well Alc, i'd generally asy your garented at least 1 QP here, but your a mod, so i guess your simply doing this to shows everyone up
lots great i say, and 400 creatures! you must have so much spare time on your hands right now
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 05:30 PM |
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The Mythology will be based solidly in the Heroes 5 Myth Of Creation, which forms an admirable mythological setting for the game and far surpasses everything we’ve seen before, if you ask me. Some minor changes or adaptations might be done, one or two cases remain unsettled at the time of speaking.
I don't know. What you say it's true, the Myth is powerfully suggestive and makes for a great setting. But I can't bring myself to like the fact that they took the whole continuity previously created (that we loved) and basically implied that it was crap by erasing it completely. The decision to break all bounds with the previous story settling manifest the fact that they dislike something that, in my opinion, had huge potential and didn't prevent them from doing what they did with Heroes V.
This is not to say that an eventual Heroes VI shouldn't continue the story of Ashan, but just to keep into account that this is not strictly necessary. What I'd like more than everything is tying Ashan, Axeoth and Colony together, but that, I think, is not going to happen.
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Game Content
The current plans for the project includes the following:
- 10 different Factions, each with 2 Hero classes.
Argh 10 factions! YOU COPIED MY IDEA! CURSE YOU! I have the copyright on number ten since it was invented!
(this is a veiled reference to an old, old post and I hope no one gets it; but I couldn't resist)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 06, 2008 07:25 PM |
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Niiiice... Only one thing to say: let the bashing begin
Yay, I look forward to your feedback!
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Level 1
Good overall, but I think you meant to give cowardice to the farmer/landlord upgrades and not to conscript/militia.
Hmm actually this was not a mistake, but I agree that it would make more sense that way. I guess this is one of the reflections that some of this was made a really long time ago, and that Haven was the first faction I penned down. The logic of my constellation comes in the number of skills - Conscript gets Enraged but keeps Cowardice, whereas Farmer looses Cowerdice but only get the inferior upgrade of Taxpayer to Landowner ability.
One solution might be to substitute Cowardice with anoher negative ability - something like "unorganized", maybe:
Unorganized: This unit works poorly in large numbers. Instead of doing normal linear damage (damage = base damage x number), the damage increases logarythmically with numbers, which means that effective damage < base damage x number.
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Level 2
Crossbowmen don't go well with manoeuvre too well. While it makes them fierce opponents, especially marksmen, a crossbow is a big heavy weapon that's hard to operate "on the run".
Hmmm ... yes ... again, I follow your logic, but I think perhaps this is one of those times where I will let gameplay win over logic: Maneuver + Precise Shot is just too nice a combo to rule it out. Btw. I did not correct it in the list, but I probably intend to nerf Precise Shot a bit, 100 % Defence reduction seems quite overblown.
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Level 3
I understand that Long weapon does not give the ability to hit 2 units, right?
Unlike all other levels, the different upgrades of the pikeman seem to be both very deffensive and serve more or less the same role in the army.
Long Weapon simply gives the ability to attack with a range of one square between the units, and thus avoiding retaliation (except if target has reached or is ranged).
Good point with the two units being very similar. I guess that's an artifact of this being some of the earliest stuff I did. Can anybody come up with some cool offensive abilities that would go naturally with a Halbardier?
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Level 8
So, Master of Wrath teaches the hero (Mass) Divine Vengeance and (Mass) Righteous Might?
No, Master Of Wrath teaches the Angel Mass AOE Righteous Might, just like the ability with the Hero. Again, there's something in the description I need to upgrade at some point.
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P.S. in the first post you wrote "allied magical beasts" twice. Creativity crisis got the best of you?
Frankly, the master post was not very worked through, so yes, guess it got the best of me. Corrected.
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This should be interesting IMO, and I like your Haven line-up
For Undead, if you need some creature, here are some:
1) Shadows
2) Blackguards
3) Doom Knights
...
also alternative names for zombies: Slurper, Cadavre
why "Light Elves" and not "Wood Elves" -- I thought Sylvan meant Woods? besides we've got a 'light' faction already
I have the Necropolis line-up put down, but might need some input for ideas when I put it up.
Light Elves corrected into Wood Elves.
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What will happen now?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 06, 2008 08:06 PM |
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Quote:
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why "Light Elves" and not "Wood Elves" -- I thought Sylvan meant Woods? besides we've got a 'light' faction already
Light Elves corrected into Wood Elves.
Why not Sylvan Elves?It also sounds better.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 06, 2008 08:12 PM |
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Salutations to Momo for taking the words right out of my mouth However:
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What I'd like more than everything is tying Ashan, Axeoth and Colony together, but that, I think, is not going to happen.
And my oh my, I truly do hope it does not.
Otherwise, sorry to Alc for flooding the thread with my storyline obsession. Allow me to contribute something with a comment or two on names:
Level 5 - Protector sounds off. Might I suggest "Veteran", "Shieldbearer", "Defender" or any such and such.
Level 7 - What compels you to use random the words "Dominion" and "Throne" as Angel upgrades?
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Why not Sylvan Elves?It also sounds better.
Sylvan = essentially synonymous with Elven. Elven Elves?
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2008 08:27 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 21:03, 06 Mar 2008.
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Hmm actually this was not a mistake, but I agree that it would make more sense that way. I guess this is one of the reflections that some of this was made a really long time ago, and that Haven was the first faction I penned down. The logic of my constellation comes in the number of skills - Conscript gets Enraged but keeps Cowardice, whereas Farmer looses Cowerdice but only get the inferior upgrade of Taxpayer to Landowner ability.
One solution might be to substitute Cowardice with anoher negative ability - something like "unorganized", maybe:
Unorganized: This unit works poorly in large numbers. Instead of doing normal linear damage (damage = base damage x number), the damage increases logarythmically with numbers, which means that effective damage < base damage x number.
I see... while Unorganized is a good idea logic-wise, wouldn't it be a great drawback for a 1st level unit that survives only thanks to his numbers? I've been trying to find a suitable substitute, but the only thing I've come up so far is this:
Inexperienced (or ill-trained): The unit has a chance to miss his attack (or just deal half the damage).
The assault ability of the conscript would make it a chance based unit working well with Soldier's Luck ability. (if you're planning on keeping it)
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Hmmm ... yes ... again, I follow your logic, but I think perhaps this is one of those times where I will let gameplay win over logic: Maneuver + Precise Shot is just too nice a combo to rule it out. Btw. I did not correct it in the list, but I probably intend to nerf Precise Shot a bit, 100 % Defence reduction seems quite overblown.
I know it's good, I was afraid that it's too good (remember the Dougal imba era?). But if Precise Shot's power is reduced than I guess it's just a good self-defense mechanism that won't be overpowered with the right stats.
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Good point with the two units being very similar. I guess that's an artifact of this being some of the earliest stuff I did. Can anybody come up with some cool offensive abilities that would go naturally with a Halbardier?
ehh... no? I'll think about it.
Edit: this is tough, both halberdier and spearman had mostly deffensive roles on the battlefield. Maybe, instead of making one of them offensive, it would be better making them both deffensive but in two clearly different ways... like one protects himself while another protects his allies, or one is better suited for stoping one opponent while the other is better at stoping multiple stacks...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 06, 2008 09:03 PM |
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Salutations to Momo for taking the words right out of my mouth However:
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What I'd like more than everything is tying Ashan, Axeoth and Colony together, but that, I think, is not going to happen.
And my oh my, I truly do hope it does not.
Otherwise, sorry to Alc for flooding the thread with my storyline obsession.
A quick remark here: There is a huge difference between history and mythology. Personally, I don't care what history is chosen - call the main character Catherine, Isabell or whatever, frankly, I couldn't care less. Call the family Ironfist or Gryphindor - no wait, that's another story - but it doesn't matter to me.
What I like about the Heroes 5 myth is that it gives us a frame to understand the races and their relations to each other. It hinges the Humanoid races with the elements through the elemental dragons, and furthermore sticks out some overall alliences with many of the mightier beasts - Dragons, Angels, Devils, Faceless - at the same time. That has great value to me in my developing, as it creates a frame into which I can put my line-ups in a senceable way.
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Allow me to contribute something with a comment or two on names:
Level 5 - Protector sounds off. Might I suggest "Veteran", "Shieldbearer", "Defender" or any such and such.
Hmmm ... Veteran does not really indicate the specific defensive / protective function of this unit imo. Shieldbearer and Defender are both Dwarven units, so neither of them will work here.
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Level 7 - What compels you to use random the words "Dominion" and "Throne" as Angel upgrades?
In fact, these names are not random: As you will read here there are a total of 9 types of Angels mentioned in the biblical mythology:
First Sphere:
Seraphim
Cherubim
Ophanin
Second Sphere:
Thrones
Dominions
Powers
Third Sphere
Principalities
Archangels
Angels
Thrones and Dominions are also refered to as Avenging Angels and Judging Angels, which is why I picked these for names for the spellcasting Angels (Divine Vengeance).
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I see... while Unorganized is a good idea logic-wise, wouldn't it be a great drawback for a 1st level unit that survives only thanks to his numbers?
Well it would be a drawback - but notice, that damage WILL increase with growth, it'll just increase less rapidly than normally.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 06, 2008 09:12 PM |
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What I like about the Heroes 5 myth is that it gives us a frame to understand the races and their relations to each other. It hinges the Humanoid races with the elements through the elemental dragons, and furthermore sticks out some overall alliences with many of the mightier beasts - Dragons, Angels, Devils, Faceless - at the same time. That has great value to me in my developing, as it creates a frame into which I can put my line-ups in a senceable way.
Ask for such a frame relating to Colony or Axeoth and I can provide one. You can believe me when I say Heroes V is the second-least detailed game in the series storywise and mythology-wise (apart from Heroes I, which still had a great backstory in the manual).
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In fact, these names are not random
Sorry about that - I stupidly failed to bother proofreading my post and forgot to delete the word 'random'
Thanks for the explanation.
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