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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Alcibiades' crazy Heroes 6 vision
Thread: Alcibiades' crazy Heroes 6 vision This thread is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 · «PREV / NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 28, 2009 10:20 PM

Quote:
What page are updates on?


Have not posted updates yet, hope to have something ready tomorrow or thursday.
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Kraken
Kraken


Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
posted July 29, 2009 09:32 PM

Alcibiades, this is so great now that I found out that you click on the Icons to see the Creatures, I wish that this was very Similar to Heroes VI.

+1
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 30, 2009 01:00 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 13:10, 30 Jul 2009.

Current status of project

The units and factions have been carried over from previously, while the magic and skill system is being revised. To summarise, the units are listed below. Click on unit icon to see names, upgrades and abilities for units. Some units might be changed at some point.











Credits: Some icons for Bastion and Sanctuary borrowed from SBlisters Naga faction. All credit to creators.
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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted July 30, 2009 01:17 PM

Skimmed a bit through the thread and generally like your ideas but I haven't seen anything about the racials yet. Are both classes per faction going to share the same racial? And what about the new faction racials?

I could contribute some suggestions, aswell as new hero specialisations.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 30, 2009 01:57 PM

Quote:
Skimmed a bit through the thread and generally like your ideas but I haven't seen anything about the racials yet. Are both classes per faction going to share the same racial? And what about the new faction racials?

I could contribute some suggestions, aswell as new hero specialisations.


Haven't gone as far as finishing racial skills yet. Classes would have different racial skills, however. Typically, Might class would focus on expanding and/or upgrading army power (Training, Gating, Necomancy, maybe even Artificer), while Magic class would focus on either improving direct magic abilities (Elemental Chains, some sort of spell building or merging perhaps) or buffing army through magical means (like current Runes, and hae a few other ideas also for Cleric and Heretic).

And ideas are always welcome to provide inspiration!
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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted July 30, 2009 02:14 PM

How drastically different will the two classes per faction be anyway? In my vision, there'd still be some influence towards might or magic depending on the faction (ie. Stronghold magic class is still more might-based than whatever might class Academy will have), but of course the skill selection and attribute growth will vary significantly between the two classes.

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 30, 2009 02:37 PM

Quote:
Haven't gone as far as finishing racial skills yet.

Didn't we do something like this already?

I'm guessing that there's nothing new in the creatures department so there's nothing for me to read right now, right?
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Paulemile
Paulemile


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2009 03:34 PM

Your creature line-ups are quite good even if i would say something about... if I'm allowed to

I am maybe too Homm3's towns style, so you might ignore some of my ideas.

First of all, the racial based towns : i don't like it at all. I'd like to see a "forest town" instead of a "sylvan elven" one, with an elven unit inside, but only one. This would work the same for the Dungeon town and the Dwarven one.

Then, 8 units per town, why not ?

Damn, you brought back the effreet. Best choice ever

I like dragons, but they are far too many in towns. This is very bad for diversity (even if you have a lot of types. This is still dragons). Keeping them as neutral creatures is cool, but inside towns...

Still concerning diversity... Unicorns and Pegasi ok, but the evil side is simply a copy with different colors (this is not you, it's ubisoft, ok ). The two kind of hydras or even the carrion birds are made the same way (keep the Rocs, but not the vultures).

I like your last town, the Sanctuary, even if as soon as you want to make something like this, you have to face the property of War 3 and the Nagas

I made my own creature line-ups and a lot of things are the same as yours. Anyway, it would be off-topic to post it there.

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted July 30, 2009 06:11 PM

Quote:

I like your last town, the Sanctuary, even if as soon as you want to make something like this, you have to face the property of War 3 and the Nagas


That's hard to avoid. You could already draw some very obvious parrallels in H5, and the orcs especially stroke me as very Blizzard-inspired. But then again both universes use the same mythologies as inspiration.
If this was real, I'd be concerned to change maybe one or two units (Couatl and the Sentinel lineup come to mind) as to reduce the similiarities). Not in their characteristics, but name and probably look
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Bladeshade
Bladeshade

Tavern Dweller
posted July 30, 2009 06:50 PM

I haven't seen through the thread yet, but I like the idea of Bastion and Sanctuary.

And I also agree that hydras belongs in the swamp, and therefore I think the Deep Hydras should be removed from Dungeon, and the condors seem like a bad idea to me.

Remove the condors and add harpies as the 3rd tier to Stronghold, and push all the units above the harpies except for the cyclopses one tier up.

Also, remove the Deep Hydra and add some other creature, can't think of anything right now.

Other than this, the adding of pikeman (and the long weapon ability) is a good idea. And the adding of rocs and thunderbirds to Academy seems a little weird at first, but would probably prove to be a good thing.

Summary: I like the idea of this, but some changes must be done to make it perfect imo.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 31, 2009 02:07 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 14:10, 31 Jul 2009.

Well, some creatures can be swapped back and forth endlessly, that's not the subject right now. As Geny said, creatures have been listed previously, and while I might make some changes later, first I'd like to focus on skills.






Skill System
Overall, the skill system will be close to that of Heroes 5 in structure, but with some slight changes.
- There will be 18 common (i.e. class independant) skills.
- Each skill can be mastered at 3 levels: Basic, Advanced and Expert.
- Each skill will have 4 basic perks, each leading to 2 advanced perks, thus making a total of 12 available perks in each skill.
- A hero can learn a maximum of 3 perks within each skill.
- Skills will fall in 3 classes: General skills, Combat skills and Magic skills. Specifics of these will be explained later.
- Each hero will probably be able to learn 7 skills in addition to his native class skill.



The 18 common skills are as follows:









Click on skill icon to read about Skill effects as well as basic perks.

Notice: Only descriptions of Magic skills are uploaded at this point.



Magic Skills
The Magic Skills do, as the name imply, allow the Hero to improve his mastery of Magic. This skillgroup contains 2 general skills, namely Sorcery and Enlightenment, which will control the speed and the general casting capacity and power, respectively, of the Hero. In addition to these skills, there are 4 skills relating each to a Magic school, which will allow the Hero to learn more complicated spells of these schools as well as increasing the power of the spells.

The 4 Magic Schools are as follows:
Light Magic: Works primarily by making the Hero's army stronger through Blessings and Transformations, or by protecting the army against opponents through Abjurations and Healing magic.
Dark Magic: Works primarily by making the opponents army weaker, either through Curses and Transmutations, or by direct damage in form of various Diseases or even giving the Hero direct influence over the enemy army through Mind Control.
Creative Magic: Manipulates the powers of nature, and brings in support for the Hero, either in form of units summoned from the material or even external planes, or through creating various obstacles or effects to hinder enemy forces.
Destructive Magic: Controls the elemental forces, providing the Hero the ability to do direct damage to enemy creatures through Elemental manipulation.

Spells for each schools can follow this on demand or come later.
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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted July 31, 2009 02:40 PM

I'd suggest rewording the Light Magic perks from granting Eternal Light to what that actually means (I'm guessing that perk itself won't even be available anymore).

ie. "Makes all Healing spells cast by hero twice as hard to dispel and opposite Dark spells have a 50% chance to fail when cast on hero's creatures".

Some of the perks also sound like you're going to make heroes combat units again?
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2009 03:10 PM

Feedback:

First of all this:
Quote:
Some of the perks also sound like you're going to make heroes combat units again?

I don't remember you mentioning anything like that before. What exactly are your plans on the matter?

Second:
I take it you're abandoning the Heroes V intertwined skill system in favor of a simpler one?

Third:
Arcane Excellence (Enlightment): Pretty strong for a basic perk, wouldn't you say? It's like a combination of all magic schools perks minus the small bonuses, which brings me to...

Fourth:
Why are the 3 perks from creative magic are the only ones that don't have any special bonuses to them?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 31, 2009 03:22 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:44, 31 Jul 2009.

@ Nirual:

Quote:
I'd suggest rewording the Light Magic perks from granting Eternal Light to what that actually means (I'm guessing that perk itself won't even be available anymore).

ie. "Makes all Healing spells cast by hero twice as hard to dispel and opposite Dark spells have a 50% chance to fail when cast on hero's creatures".

Yeah, I'll look into that. I think it was to save space in the layout.

Quote:
Some of the perks also sound like you're going to make heroes combat units again?

Yes, that is indeed true, my current intention is to have Hero on the battlefield, more or less like in Heroes 4.

@ Geny

Quote:
Quote:
Some of the perks also sound like you're going to make heroes combat units again?

I don't remember you mentioning anything like that before. What exactly are your plans on the matter?

No, this has not really been discussed before. It was something that gave me a real head-ache, because there are so many pros and cons to take into consideration.

The exact nature of this is not yet on paper. I think balancing this is extremely difficult (as we saw in Heroes 4). It might even end up being something in-between Heroes 4 and 5, which means Hero will be more on battlefield than in Heroes 5 but less than in Heroes 4.

My current plans go along this line:
- Hero can excecute direct attack on units, either Heroes 4 or Heroes 5 style.
- I'm undecided on whether units can attack Heroes directly. I might be inclined to not make this a possibility, i.e. more Heres 5 style.
- Heroes can potentially attack each other in order to passify enemy Hero (H4 style).
- Hero fysical position on battlefield will effect his ability to cast spells and perform direct attacks. Thus, Heroes may have a range maximum range to their spells, so that you can only affect units within a certain distance of your Hero. Similarly, unless your Hero is able to perform ranged attacks, he will only be able to make direct attacks within a certain range, unit style.
- Combat skills will affect your Heroes direct-attack style, offering a range of direct-attack techniques!

Quote:
I take it you're abandoning the Heroes V intertwined skill system in favor of a simpler one?

Yes and no. My lines go towards a more fixed core skill system, where all 18 skills have a set of 12 standard perks, which will be the same for all factions. There may be certain racial perks that substitute one of the standard perks, however (like current Herald Of Death is only available for Necromancers).

There will still be cross-skill connections, however. Thus, a perk like Retribution will probably still be connected to both Attack and Leadership.

I'm as yet undecided on whether requirements will be different between factions. For balance reasons, it will probably end up so that some perks are easier to get for some classes than others (like current Swift Mind, which is easier to get for Might than Magic classes). Following this reasoning, it might be an option to have a two core skill-wheels, one that applies for Magic classes and one that applies for Might classes, on top of which racial adjustments are imposed.

All in all, it will be a slightly more uniform skill system in the way that difference between classes is not so much in the structure of the skill tree but in their likelyhood to learn certain skills.

Oh, I'm considering a more elaborate "shatter" skill system, however. Let's discuss that later.

Quote:
Arcane Excellence (Enlightment): Pretty strong for a basic perk, wouldn't you say? It's like a combination of all magic schools perks minus the small bonuses, which brings me to...

Again, I have to answer yes and no. I think it's better on paper than in reality. Notice that it raises mastery by one level, but only up to expert. Thus:
- Once you have Expert mastery of a magic school, Arcane Excellence becomes redundant with regard to this school.
- It does not allow you to learn new spells by itself. Thus, it will only apply to level 1 and 2 spells, which you will get Basic instead of None mastery, apart from magic schools where you have only Basic or Advanced mastery.
- It will make a nice duo with Magic Insight, as these two skills will allow you to learn more skills at slightly better mastery.

Quote:
Why are the 3 perks from creative magic are the only ones that don't have any special bonuses to them?


Like I said, some things are still unfinished. I simply haven't decided on (read: come up with ) appropriate effects for these classes.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2009 04:06 PM

Maybe if I knew what spells are going to be in each sub-school I could help you find the appropriate bonus. Like, if you decide to make the hero remain on the lines but restrict his range then one of the bonuses (summoning?) can be used to summon a mirror image on another part of the battlefield and effectively create another range circle.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 31, 2009 04:53 PM

Quote:
Maybe if I knew what spells are going to be in each sub-school I could help you find the appropriate bonus. Like, if you decide to make the hero remain on the lines but restrict his range then one of the bonuses (summoning?) can be used to summon a mirror image on another part of the battlefield and effectively create another range circle.


Feel free to have a look at it. Creative Magic spells are listed here, there's also a legend to better decipher information.
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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted July 31, 2009 05:07 PM

I'd suggest for Illusion that it gives them a chance to resist destructive spells (their biggest weakness).

Nature: Own creatures may pass through created obstacles (but not onto).

Conjuration: passive ability that casts Arcane Armor on the hero if he takes heavy damage.

Summoning: weaker version of Elemental Balance (like 20%). Elemental Balance can still be taken for a full effect.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2009 06:11 PM
Edited by Geny at 13:02, 01 Aug 2009.

For Conjuration I like Nirual's idea: "Own creatures may pass through created obstacles"

For Nature... since most nature spell seem to have a certain amount of randomness about them, maybe the bonus could reduce this amount by letting you better control it. (e.g. select an area where the wasp hive would attack.

For Summoning I'd like to make a change of my previous suggestion. The hero gains the ability/spell "Summon Avatar" which summons a manifestation of the hero onto the battlefield. The avatar cannot attack, but can move freely around the battlefield increasing the hero's abilities' effective range. Avatars' health/defense/both is/are determined by spellpower/mastery/both.

...........................

All right, so some of them may sound too complex and specific, but I never said my suggestions will be any good.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 31, 2009 11:52 PM

I'll consider this later, but keep in mind that the bonus should be something which is not too powerful, and which affects the Hero rather than his army.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 01, 2009 12:42 AM

This may be a stupid question, but what's happened to logistics and pathfinding, and things like that?

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