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| Thread: TOH fan letter to Ubi??? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
So my suggestion is that if we make swift mind harder to reach for wizard and dungeon , lets make counterspell harder to reach for other factions too, to keep balance.
Counterspell requires Sorcery - a very low probability skill for might factions. Besides, the purpose IS NOT to balance out Swift mind - before, might and magic factions faced each other pretty EVEN while in TOTE, with availability of Swift Mind, the weight was shifted towards Magic side. I don't see any problem with Swift mind in general, as long as you pay for attaining it!
IMO, Counterspell requirements for Might factions should remain intact as even before TOTE thas was utopian skill for them. Also, we want to keep changes to the MINIMUM.
I'd like to note though, that this suggestion was very well thought out in respect to balance. This is the discussion that will lead to the TOH MOD's final version from first try (perhaps).
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 05:24 PM |
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Make swift mind harder??? Hahaha... do you have any idea what a swift minded mass haste (coming from a might faction... much easier accessible for might factions) can do vs a magic faction???
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 20, 2008 05:51 PM |
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Can you tell us, in what way it is nerved?
The original base power throughout the four levels of expertise was 10-30-40-60 with a 1-3-4-6 Spellpower multiplier. I cut these values down to 5-10-15-20 and 1-1-1-2, essentially cutting the spell's total effectiveness by two thirds. It's a little extreme, and that's just an example mod of course.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
Make swift mind harder??? Hahaha... do you have any idea what a swift minded mass haste (coming from a might faction... much easier accessible for might factions) can do vs a magic faction???
Obviously, Swift Mind as well as Flaming arrows prerequisites would be harder to achieve for ALL RACES as proposed in the beggining of this thread. Both of these monster perks can be achieved too easy compared to the power they possess. "No free lunch" idea should be applied here...
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 20, 2008 06:36 PM |
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Edited by diegis at 18:38, 20 Mar 2008.
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So Strider, how exactly do you have in mind, swift to be achieved?..If you can explain a bit more for different faction i would appreciate..
edit: I suppose the skill wheel will be changed as well/...
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 08:00 PM |
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1.I dont see how these changes affect sylvan. Are they ok as they are now?
2.Orcs. Dark magic kills them completely. Shatter or not. Destruction is harmless against them. Summoning and light dont offer much either.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
So Strider, how exactly do you have in mind, swift to be achieved
I have had a look at the wheel and I have a few thoughts. I mean I do not really know what alll you guys wanna achieve, harder for might? Harder for magic factions?
today - every magic faction needs arcane intuition and scouting. IF we think that is hard enough, two skills required, and one, in some cases 2, rather useless perks, I will first post a couple of alternatives on that note, and a third alternative on a different note
To give the same prerequisite for might factions - Scouting plus arcane, would make it close to impossible to get for e.g demon lords and barbs. So I can think of at least two possible ways:
1 Slightly harder to get for might
- Keep magic factions as is
- Change requirements for might to Scouting + Pathfinding.
The issue here is that the Knights already have Snatch with Scouting and Pathf as prerequisites. I guess that will be a problem? At least for the skilltreemakers 
2 Much harder to get for might
- Keep magic factions as is
- Change requirements for might to Scouting + Estates
The good part is that Estates is not used as prerequisite for anything. It is obviously plain useless aswell, but as said - this is supposed to make it much harder.
From reading the post all over I see that issue is that you think it is too easy to get for magic factions aswell - hence alternative 3!
3 Harder for all
- Change requirements for all races exept necro to Scouting + Estates
- Change Necro reqs to ... not sure, but Scouting + Arcane Intuition + Scholar? It will be just too harsh to require leadership for necro.
Obviously Estates can be swapped for something else - but I think Estates is a nice choice 
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 09:05 PM |
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While I am at it - Flaming arrows
I find it a bit harder to come up with changes here.
Now it is very hard to get for Demon Lords (Extr. Strike + Archery, and easy for all others (Archery). I find that strange since Demons really need this compared to other races.
So - If the goal is to make it equally hard for all races to get (?)
If we use Demon Lords as starting point. They need one racial skill perk (Mark of Damned), one Attack perk (Archery) and one that builds on MoD and Att (Exc Strike)
If we generalize - we should have close to the following prereqs:
One perk of racial
One perk of attack
One build on perk of attack (if present)
Eg for Haven: Prerequisite Retribuition (Trainer, Battle Fr -> Retribution)
Before we go on to make examples for all factions I wanna get some opinions on if this is a way to go.
And - not to forget this, I think the suggested changes to DV and Stalkers (Reduce inv. with one turn) are for the better and should be implemented in a MOD.
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 20, 2008 10:30 PM |
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Edited by diegis at 22:31, 20 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
And - not to forget this, I think the suggested changes to DV and Stalkers (Reduce inv. with one turn) are for the better and should be implemented in a MOD.
i agree on this so far..also option 2 from previous post or leave it like it is now.
But still waiting other ppl opinions.
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 08:11 AM |
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After read posts i'm start dislike idea for mod more and more. For begining every 1 is unhappy from someting and want it to be changed.
Why we need change Flaming arrows?
Orc: If he get Flaming arrows he loss Stuning blow+Excruciating Strike and they are very useful combo.
Demon: For him to ge it is hard enough.
Knight: He is loss retribution (what is alot more useful/efect all army not only WM) if get flaming arrows.
Necro: WM+flaming arrows is joke for this race.
Ranger: 2% for WM and alot better skill in attack from flaming arrows.
Runemage: If you get flaming arrows you will loss Offensive formation and its so rox for them.
Warlock: They need other skills alot more from WM and Power of speed look more useful from flaming arrows.
Wizard: 2% chance for attack but Flaming arrows will be useful for them.
So in general i dont see why we need change Flaming arrows...when for get it you will loss other useful skill.
Swift mind: Price for get it's, is big enough atm for warlock and Wizard. If they get swift mind will miss warpat and its incredible powerful skill. Wizard have 2% for log skill so he can't get most games swift mind. Another price for both races to get swift mind is they will can't get after it Mentoring. So dont see why we need to change swift mind. If we do it will need "balance" for all nonmagic races to can't get warpath so easy.
All what need much to be change is:
1.Stalkers - reduce duration of the invisibility by one turn
2.Divine Vengence spell - reduce the power of this spell.
For me spels from utopia and other similar bildings need to give spels 1st from same skill what you have and after it to give random.
For this i don't like mods because humans have diferent view for "balance" and what 1 think for good other can think for bad. I disagree for any change on "Swift mind" and "Flaming arrows". They don't kill balance in game and to get them you need to loss some other...so its good enough trade for me.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 09:29 AM |
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Quote:
I disagree for any change on "Swift mind" and "Flaming arrows". They don't kill balance in game and to get them you need to loss some other...so its good enough trade for me.
Here is how I see it. In HOF, races using w/m (no flaming arrows/triple ballista) were creeping really well already. What has changed in TOTE: VERY EASY to acquire one extra shot + ability that negates all defence and adds 50 fire dmg.
For example, when fighting neutral dragons with Flaming arrows you take off ~30 defence; if they are with a hero whose defence is 20, then this perks voids 50 defence (+fire dmg)! Ridiculous...
Another example - I've seen replays where in final battle this single unit annihilates 10 dragons in one act (the backbone of opponents army).
Also, from the viewpoint of gameplay - I often get flaming + expert ballista around days 5-10. What does it mean in reality?? It means that ballista (att+knowl = ~10-20) does SEVERAL times more damage than the whole army (especially on maps with 1-2 towns)!
I wonder, if ballista creeping was so efficient in HOF then WHY OH WHY do we need to turn it into monstrous phenomenon Just consider what ballista is - huge hitpoints, no range penalty, restores if destroyed, cannot be blocked, easy to protect, cannot be slowed down... It ABSOLUTELY cannot be stopped during creeping and even in 6th week final you have to spend 1-2 shots from ranged units to neutralize it (not even mentioning cases where ballista get to act).
Well, nothing to do if TOTE designed it this way... but what we CAN do is to make harder achieving this OVERPOWERED creeping tool.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 09:31 AM |
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Good post Elit.
I have found it hard to see if there are common goals here, and well, at least you show that it`s not that when it comes to Flaming and Swift Mind.
Personally I have not experienced these skills as broken either way, I have just presented some possible changes IF consensus is that they should be changed. You have good arguments in favor of not changing them.
We do agree fully on the Invisibility and DV
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 10:01 AM |
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The invisibility to 2 turns is a really good idea.
Will undermind the creeping by around 33% probably.
As for divine vengence, i haven't had any games using/being a victim from it, so can't comment
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 10:20 AM |
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Quote:
We do agree fully on the Invisibility and DV
It's good that we agree on half of the issues Yet, only few community members have expressed their support. There must to be more!
In the same way I thought that it's clear about too easy attainment of monster perk Flaming arrows as many players agreed, yet we have 1 guy who opposes... Please, be more active, folks, and voice your opinions!
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 11:13 AM |
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OK, i know im no emperor, or have x years of playing in toh, but... if you plan to make changes, those should take into consideration all races and all stages of the game. I mean... nevermind...
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 11:36 AM |
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OK, i know im no emperor, or have x years of playing in toh, but... if you plan to make changes, those should take into consideration all races and all stages of the game. I mean... nevermind...
Exactly, mate And there is no such "never mind"! IMO we have to correct only for MAJOR imbalances to keep changes as few as possible. If we start correcting for all of it then it will evolve into something similar to russian mod of 200 changes...
Again, IF community would agree on that - why not?! Yet, in current state it's unlikely...
When you post, plz, write EXACT changes you propose!
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 11:55 AM |
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i said some before, but seems that there are imbalances only from my point of view. I dont think its right that dark kills orcs so bad, while other magic schools are worthless. Everytime i go for dark vs orcs is 100% win. Shatter or not. Also, i dont like arcane archers or the new sylvan dragons. I dont like that building that prevents inferno from building castle. Im not against removing invisibility from stalkers,if you give something else in return. Like do something about those minotaurs 'cause nobody seems to use them, or give dungeon a decent shooter(i've seen a mod where hydras were switched with matriarchs; dunno if this is a solution, but may start giving an idea) so it doesnt have to rely on spells on 90% of fights.
But, to conclude, even with those, the game is pretty well balanced (the single true imbalance from my point of view is divine vengeance). I mean, during the hof days we didnt need a mod, although the game had obvious flaws.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 12:33 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 12:39, 21 Mar 2008.
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Stalkers invisibility length cannot be reduced by a mod, as far as I know.
And if you are all talking about how IMBA dungeon is, how about saying something about their late-game. I think Dungeon and Necro late game are really really underpowered. Simply put, if you stall the game till week 6 or so, because of guardians or whatever reason, it's pretty much gg for them.
Any suggestions to make them more viable late-game?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 21, 2008 12:34 PM |
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...oh yes it can!
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2008 12:40 PM |
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...oh yes it can!
Then how about making stalkers last 2 turns when invisible, but leave Mistresses with 3 turns, or even increase this duration...
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