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| Thread: Random Maps |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 04:28 AM |
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.......
Jiels i totally agree with what u said about Phantoms posting 
i had exactly the same thoughts but im to dumb to express em in english
Dictionaryschaaf
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 04:41 AM |
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To jex posting...
i agree u cant compare tim554 and Andi
i played andi countless times and i cant remember a 1o1 i killed him , and in the 3 games i had with tim554 he ran around like "da man with no plan" who got absolutely no idea what he is doing.
Commentschaaf
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 05:29 AM |
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Quote: I played Tim554 twice, both times he killed himself
I played him about 20 times, and he has never killed himself.
I´m also quite surprised to see so much roughness against Phantom´s post. Compare these two:
P:"For me at least, random maps were an evolution of gaming"
"... to do the TOH maps ... takes great skill, but just in my opinion, randoms take more"
A:"everyone can win against everyone on randoms since its only luck"
Jiels, I do not really think that Phantom is the one here who acts in a disrespectful and prejudiced way. I completely agree with what you say about "good rules" and "bad rules" being quite a matter of taste and point of view, and I personally wouldn´t enjoy the ones that Phantom prefers either. But even after reading through the text several times, I do not at all see him claiming that this it were one and only best way.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 06:35 AM |
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Wow, trust phantom to come and spice things up
What I would love to see is people to respect others opinions on the game, instead of getting on their high horse and saying "I'm better than you" Most of us are guilty of this (including me), and of trying to shove our points down others throats, especially in the hit and run thread. If me and phantom want to play no diplo/necro/scrolls then thats great. If Lews wants to play no rules, thats cool too. If Andi and motor dont like randoms, coz they dont see it as a test of skill, then so be it. Why not a discussion about these types of games like grown ups, which most of us are, rather than a full blown flame war, especially from those senior members of ToH, who, like it or not, set an example for the newer players.
Cheers
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Myctteakyshd
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 09:00 AM |
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Random maps and random rules and who is better and this and that!
Well i agreed for the most part with phantom1500s rather lengthy and insightful comments. Random maps do take more skill and are more fun... but that is just my opinion (also many others opinions too).
I don't intend to criticize all the wonderful one map wonders or the numerous playes that dont play randoms.
For me, random maps are best because you dont know what is around the next corner. You don't know that you can move 10 more spaces and find a watering hole or a mine..or a new town or...you just dont know.
One must be able to adapt to whats given to you...you can't come into a random game with a specifically outlined plan for your game and expect to pull it off every game. Sure, you can have a general plan but these maps throw you curveballs every game... not too mention the fact that you may have comp players to further complicate matters.
Yes, TOH maps require skill, but the skill required for TOH maps is the skill of mastering certain moves over and over. Mastering certain sequences of moves to maximize your production and overall development, once mastered these maps takes little skill to stay at that level. For me... thats no fun.
Sure... you may say `well how do you know that unless you've mastered XXX map and so on?'. Easy, the map stays the same, you can study it in the editor for as long as you like, plan routes, plan certain days to attack, outline the exact day you can take the Utopia.
I dont have the patience to study a map for extended periods, play a map 10 plus times and/or save daily against a one-map wonder and recreate his moves during my next game on that map.
On a slightly similar but separate theme, most random map players are not concerned as much about TOH pts as players who play only certain maps. Simply because the maps are random and by playing them you actually take a chance of losing to any player.
Yes random maps are not all good and rarely evenly layed out, that's of course where skill comes into play. Maximizing all heroes use and movement and using and adapting to whats givin to you. The chances of one of these top ranked players who plays DW or HG 75% of the time losing to someone who does not know the map is nil! I believe those that are driven by pts, the players that need recognition, that need to be #1 are forced to play and master certain maps. Its just the way it is... but how can you have fun when you play HG or DW 75 out of 100 games, how much different can each game be?
But of course, this is all just my opinion and eveyone has there own opionns and styles of game play they prefer.
Well its late here and i am sort of rambling on here. so Goodnight.
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 10:58 AM |
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hehe, i try to make my posts funny and sometimes agressive too, coz thats the way i like to talk, i think the "hi, how are you, fine, oh yeah i think that too, exactly, your great man" talk is boring 
im a nice guy most of the times thou, maybe not too often on this board 
as for the randoms, you need much luck that you get a game that will be good, and it needs a ton of rules, yeah rules to make it playable, like no diplo, hillfort, cartho and so on, you know them all. most important prolly no DD and fly.
ok, so now you stand in front of a pandies box, you might get all air spells in it, happens quiet often, and than alrdy its messed up.
dont get me wrong all random map players, randoms are fun inbetween, but you cant take them serious, you cant say "im a good random map player and i would win 90% of my games on it". coz dont u think others know too how to play on unknown maps, they know how to scout too, they know it requires diferent building orders almost every game, at least i do, so its silly to say "the perfect random player" would beat me 75% of the games on a random.
no, its a matter of luck, if i get the lucky sides of the maps i beat "the best random map player" 75% of the games, whorver that is now
as for that running away, thats just not my style of play, coz its just boring to chase a player around a XL map after you took his castle and there is no way for him to take it or yours back, just to watch him hoping to get DD in a box and than he can get it all back ... "scary"
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 11:25 AM |
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Larger maps...
I don't think random is that dif from a large map. You might not know it, but unless it is truly terrible, that doesn't really make a big deal to the final outcome.
You just have more options to puruse, or also mistakes to make since you don't know all the variables like you do in a regular medium mirror toh map. In any large map almost all the artifacts likely to be present and so there is every counter, also a good amount of towns are present so even if you lose your main town you might not have needed it anyway. Actually, a main town is great bait ofr a d-doorer. Especially if they didn't scout much first. Just last game I played someone d-doored into my land and took my town... well, he stayed in it to get back his mana after d-dooring thru half the map- my heroes were close enough to attack since I also had d-door(I just wanted to scout first for this exact reason) I H&R him in the town he took and then attacked with big armies from two seperate towns I was building. I had only time to evacuate my 7ths from that town, but that was all I needed.
Scenarios like that don't happen on ToH maps except perhaps for the allied maps that also contain neutral towns(but usually a suicidal ally gives up and won't give away his armies before he is gang banged by two opponents). So it's alot more fun because you have to adapt, but I think the better players will prevail by the win ration in the final outcome. Maybe lose a few on randoms, but even one map wonders occasionally lose.
Really I think some people prefer ToH maps because they are lazy and want a quick game. A real good competitive game on a non-ToH map probably takes at least 6 hours, at least- even if it's medium. I know my turns take about 8 min on 4 min turns when I have to think each turn rather than playing on automatic like I can on ToH map. Fighting the numerous battles and not having your artifacts and towns all in a nice easy route for you to race thru increases game length. Also- sure there is some luck in map setup for randoms, but I think it's less than that present on ToH map when there might be only 4 relics, and if you get sandals of saint and angel wing shows while opponent gets spell binders hate and helm of enlightenment...
At least on a random map you can have a chance to really outplay your opponent rather than win the race. It's two different things, playing vs racing.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 11:35 AM |
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Ok Andi
Heres something...
Day 1 chain your heroes around to get mines, guarded by 22 imps and 1 day from your town, next few days, chain around and get money, send your main towards the quest hut, after that we get some more cash, take the quest, head toward the box that has log and 8000 xp in it. take that, go get our 1 relic and go break out. Maybe get diplo on the way etc, hopefully get crag or Tazar to kill em in week 3 without too much trouble...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Cheers
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Myctteakyshd
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 25, 2001 11:45 AM |
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Okay, time to put on my big head...
I beat Rychee on a random map.
Geez I'm really good.
*smile*
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 12:28 PM |
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lol
ok 1 back for ya, rych
here i sit on my random map, 2 ways out are blocked by a horde sharpshooters and a pack devils, but i dont know yet...i will see it in a week or so...
this time i got lucky and got my ore and wood not blocked by lots dread knights, but snow im tower and where are my other mines?
meantime i see that my opponent alrdy has 5 towns, wonder how it is to be able to do something...
now i see those nasty devils, guarding the sea captains hat, but damn it blocks the road too 
cool thou, i will have that hat later, but for now i have to stay in my area if i dont get lucky and find a fly scroll
cheers
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MidnightWraith
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 02:49 PM |
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that doesnt sound boring andi, that sounds like a challenge we gotta toughen u germans up a bit in current game with rych he got a dungeon drag dwelling in week 2, so he starts week 3 with a crazy amount of red drags. The only dwellings i have give me imps, but have more income and with tricky chaining via doors can prolly hit 5 conservatories in week 3. Main town is crappy tower, but i can focus building lvl 5 magic super fast by resource hunting at the same time. And track rych down with my angels and whatever army is left after fighting a zillion griffons with lvl 1 scouts. That sort of game is fun cuz u have to play unconventionally to maximize chance of winning. I may have to waste an hour on restarts and play an impossibly unbalanced map in a previous game (which we didnt report) but i can't get that sort of challenge of my current game from anywhere else. Yep it is unbalanced, the odds r in rych's favour, but i like that, cuz it forces me to come up with new strategies which i can then use in other games.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 05:09 PM |
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....
Looks like i have to repeat it once again :
I dont think randoms require more or less skill than TOH Maps. i just think they require a DIFFERENT skill.
A lot random players totally suck on TOH maps and same goes for TOH map players on randoms .
Of course there are exeptions of players that rock on both.
about that blind map thing : Phantom for me its very clear that the biggest test of skill is a blind, well balanced and play tested map. And a bigger test of skill than a random or a known TOH map ever will be . Both players dun know what the map looks like and both dun know if its open or closed but what both know it is balanced and playtested with same options for both. On blind maps almost allways the player with more skill wins the game.
Thats probably the reason why i never won on a blind map
Blindschaaf
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 08:24 PM |
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A little spice is always nice
Anyway, i don't know how people thought i meant my rules were best. I don't even have my rules, just suggestions. We tried many, like only native town heroes allowed, no artifacts at all, no spells at all, etc. I am not saying rules are good, i am not saying my rules are good, but rules can bring a little variety for fun. And yes jiels i have had games vs diplo and necro also and won them. Killed 4000 skels once with 7 devils and force field, but most these rules are actually just made to try to balance game, it's not even that losing matters, it's that winning by getting thousands of joiners with diplo is as much fun as losing to a thousand joiners.
In the end it's all personal preference anyway, play what you enjoy. Randoms is not all luck though, and I guess that is my only point. And to Andi's post, i had about a 90% winning rate playing only randoms including a 25 in a row streak and i played pretty much only high colonels. The numbers don't really matter, but it is possible. Some of the strategies that came up in the random games when you are losing bad are crazy. I had a pretty crazy game once, where i had no chance whatsoever, but i decided to trick opponent. Since i knew where he scouted, i set my hero speed to slow, so he can see every move, and right when it mattered most, switched it to fast and hid behind smoke stack. He thought i TP or DD and left the area and I stole his main castle with all the troops. Lost the game anyway though, but that sure was fun.
Great description of a TOH map Rychen
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 08:44 PM |
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Oh yeah,
This is a video game forum, yet somehow i got labelled with an immature mindset. This is rather amusing cause i wonder what is a "mature" mindset in heroes.
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted November 25, 2001 09:40 PM |
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*sigh*
I wasn't flaming for the sake of flaming, I was arguing. Phantom if you don't understand what mature is go look in the dictionary, surely, that's not too hard. Lews Therin, Ironmlh, Rychen, Ichon etc. have all given mature posts. Look to them for examples of maturity.
Lews Therin, in the "open maps, closed maps, randoms maps" thread Phantom insulted everyone who likes playing toh maps with rules. When pointed that it is similiar to the rules made for Randoms that he uses, he responded with your just stupid.......
I have played over a 100 randoms maps. And from that much experience I conclude that they all play the same. You scout around until you find your enemy, after you have, you find an advatnage(utopia, conservatories, relics, matching castles) and then you kill the other person. That's it. Wheee, it's as fun as Hg for 10th time, imo.
I am sick of people saying that this map or that map is better. For me it's the person I play against that makes the game. I can have good games on hg if I am playing a skilled player, same as on randoms. It's not the map that makes the game, although it does have an impact, it's the people you play it against! So there.
jiels (the immature child)
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 10:28 PM |
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Quote: Lews Therin, in the "open maps, closed maps, randoms maps" thread Phantom insulted ...
Jiels, I looked at that thread and found neither a post from Phantom, nor any responses to anything Phantom might have said, in case he would have deleted it later. And I find the quality of his posts in this thread very good, even if I do not agree with everything he says.
(Instead of this stupid sun-glasses wearing smiley, I had intended to use the "?" symbol.)
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted November 25, 2001 10:41 PM |
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Edited By: jiels on 25 Nov 2001
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lol, you beat me to the edit button Lews!
It's in the Hit and Run thread where he, imo, says that anyone who plays with no H/R is stupid for dumbing down game. To which I responded with; Yeah, it's as dumb as these rules for randoms by your own logic. He then responded with, If you think that your stupid, can't you se that my rules are better.
This is the way I have read his posts. But like I said earlier, I assume he was calling me stupid and as such have responded in a personal manner.
I have made some, valid, points I think. I have yet to see him refute them in an intelligent fashion. Why is it that no necro for randoms is better no h/r for a toh map? What is it that makes these 2 rules so different? The people that use these rules are both making them out of personal experience in a effort to balance a map better. Why is one person right and the other wrong?
And yes, most of his posts are good, I'm just taking offense to the ones' where he calls me stupid.
I mean you can talk about puppies and kittens in mature manner, but somehow he doesn't see it that way.
jiels (the bad editor)
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2001 11:06 PM |
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....
Quote
Phantom1500 "STOP WATERING DOWN HEROES WITH STUPID RULES"
Quotationschaaf
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MidnightWraith
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 26, 2001 01:12 AM |
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motor, my point before is not wether a player is better or not on the flavour of map to play (except in jest - good to see u took the bait there he he), but just that the challenge i get in randoms is just not there in mirror maps except in few days leading to the final battle which is usually via the middle of map. That is the pattern on the majority of fixed maps whether u play them blind or not. So i'm willing to put up with a crappy generator to get the unpredictable games i like even with the large variation in luck possible.
And jiels, yeah there is a limit to the variations u can get in any game, but saying that the variation in strategies on randoms is no more than in hg3 is suprising. The randoms r based on templates, on XL there is over 20 of them with varying terrain each time, on gold poor ones i may only have 1 or 2 heroes in week 1, others like ring r so rich i get 8 out by day 2 usually. No way u get that same variation by playing a few maps of fixed terrain, even on hg maps which allow more variability than most.
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted November 26, 2001 01:18 AM |
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:)
if random maps need only luck to win or they are very unbalanced, why good players who likes to play random maps won 70-90% of their games?
what skill or strategy is used to play HG maps except to click fast and to use bug that allows to view how many cities opponent is building?
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