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| Thread: What's wrong in Belgium... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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DagothGares
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posted June 08, 2009 10:45 PM |
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God, I hope belgium stays together...
I suggest we abandon the constitutional democracy and flip to a republic, where the person in power has the last word in critical decisions and we're not sticking into a political limbo for several years, because the parties can't agree on ONE THING. ALL this started with BHV and that is so ridiculous, I wonder when God will hand me the punchline.
Also, it is you right to vote on someone else, after the party of your choice failed you, but... Since when are Belgian politicans inspirational or interesting? I admit, it would be fun to have someone as invigorating as Obama, but someone else could be an inspirational politician, but still a bad idea to vote for. (I know Godwin's law and I'm not saying De Wever is as bad as this) But when are we going to pick politicians for their ideas and not the feeling thy give us?
Well, I suggest never, since inspirational political leaders can be a blessing (look at America and their take on their presidents), but our political leaders are still our kings nd they are a joke, if our worst and most famous comedian is to be believed.
Bah, whatever, I don't know enough to actually be able to actually discuss this.
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TheDeath
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posted June 08, 2009 10:55 PM |
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Seeking one's own happiness isn't acceptedly wrong. Well, it shouldn't be.
Why do people think that altruism means you shouldn't care about yourself? It means to care about others the SAME as you care about yourself (and obviously very few ppl do that including me). If you don't care about yourself you can draw the conclusion from the above phrase that it means you won't care about anyone else either.
Basically "altruism" for the above (happiness) thing can be summed as "seek your own happiness but don't place it above anyone else's happiness, nor theirs above yours, but at an equal level".
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Lexxan
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posted June 08, 2009 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 23:00, 08 Jun 2009.
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God, I hope belgium stays together...
Okay, I've gotta ask thing. Why? Why do you keeping clining onto nothing more than a mere illusion? Why? [DO know that I wouldn't care less whether Belgium would stay together or fall apart - I would already be satisfied with a State Reformation, but nothing less.]
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I suggest we abandon the constitutional democracy and flip to a republic, where the person in power has the last word in critical decisions and we're not sticking into a political limbo for several years, because the parties can't agree on ONE THING. ALL this started with BHV and that is so ridiculous, I wonder when God will hand me the punchline.
Wallonia refuses to split what LAWFULLY should have been split a long time ago. End of Story, for now. I hope, for Fairness' Sake, that I will be split in the near future, lest the Country WILL fall apart. The whole conflict, and Wallonia's disdain for Flanders, just fuels the Flemish Nationalism. (an objective fact - I myself an neither Belgicist or Flemish-Nationalist - I just don't care much about Nationalism)
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Also, it is you right to vote on someone else, after the party of your choice failed you, but... Since when are Belgian politicans inspirational or interesting?
The never where. Never ever. Hath I voted Emotionally, I would not have voted at all. I just rationally contemplated the possibilities (which were limited to CD&V, VB and N-VA), and voted for the part which, imo, would improve the life of the Average Fleming the most. N-VA will lead responsibly, no doubt, and might even split BHV and force a State Reformation on Federal Level. All for the Greater Good, with no apparent disadvantages (though no guarantees) => Vote Granted. 
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I admit, it would be fun to have someone as invigorating as Obama, but someone else could be an inspirational politician, but still a bad idea to vote for. (I know Godwin's law and I'm not saying De Wever is as bad as this) But when are we going to pick politicians for their ideas and not the feeling thy give us?
Like I said, I vote rationally, not emotionally. Eventhough I enjoyed and followed the Broadcasted escapades of De Wever, it did not influence my influence in the slightest. Being good at Quizzes doesn't guarantee competence. In Bart De Wever's case however, he seems to be both a good quizzer and a competent politician. It was the latter that made me vote for him, and *NOT* the former. (though many of De Wever's adversairies would claim the opposite)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
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posted June 08, 2009 10:59 PM |
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And so quote wars have begun... 
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Lexxan
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posted June 08, 2009 11:05 PM |
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And so quote wars have begun...
*sniff-sniff*
Do I smell a hint of hypocricy, here?
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DagothGares
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posted June 08, 2009 11:10 PM |
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quoting for frame of reference
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Wallonia refuses to split what LAWFULLY should have been split a long time ago. End of Story, for now. I hope, for Fairness' Sake, that I will be split in the near future, lest the Country WILL fall apart. The whole conflict, and Wallonia's disdain for Flanders, just fuels the Flemish Nationalism. (an objective fact - I myself an neither Belgicist or Flemish-Nationalist - I just don't care much about Nationalism)
What do you mean lawfully should have been split long ago? I don't want to talk about long ago and lawfully actually, because then Congo would've been ours, we'd be a part of th netherlands (GOD NOOOOOO!) and the spanish would be our masters.
I don't want it to split apart, because we destroy our cultural diversity and part of our economy. Where will Brussles go? What will be our new form of government? And you shouldn't care about what makes the other people think this or that. Our enhanced schooling system should beat the hell out of the apparent incapable thinking of the voters or we should abolish the mandatory voting.
And what disdain for Flanders? Did a great heap of earth rise up and erect it's middle fingr from wallonia to Flanders? (I'm picturing it comically, but you apparently know more than I do, so I would love it, if you explained a little bit of this and that here and there)
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TheDeath
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posted June 08, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Quote:
quoting for frame of reference
Just for the record (Dagoth especially) I didn't mean to say a quote is bad or anything, in fact like you said it's useful for reference. Even 10 quotes no problem if they are not trivial answers
Anyway since I don't know much of Belgian politics I'd say carry on 
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Lexxan
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posted June 08, 2009 11:40 PM |
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Quotes! (sorry, but this is MY "I gave up believing in")
What do you mean lawfully should have been split long ago? I don't want to talk about long ago and lawfully actually, because then Congo would've been ours, we'd be a part of th netherlands (GOD NOOOOOO!) and the spanish would be our masters.
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I don't want it to split apart, because we destroy our cultural diversity and part of our economy.
There's no such thing as a Belgian Culture. There's no such thing as a Belgian Economy. Both Culture and Economy differ greatly in FLanders, Wallonia and Brussels.
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Where will Brussles go?
THAT'S the question. Brussels is the glue that holds the country together. Both Flanders and Wallonia would wish to have Brussels, should belgium split. What the outcome would be is something I do not know and cannot predict.
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Our enhanced schooling system should beat the hell out of the apparent incapable thinking of the voters or we should abolish the mandatory voting.
Schooling is Regional. Flemish Schooling is af a great level. Walloon and Bruxcellois schooling is of average level only. So far for the Enhanced Schooling System.
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And what disdain for Flanders? Did a great heap of earth rise up and erect it's middle fingr from wallonia to Flanders?
You MAY have noticed that it's ALWAYS Flanders that helps Wallonia. Always. That is oonly the tip of the iceberg. Wallonia is indeed, in need and needs to be helped by it's northern counterpart. So far so good. Okay, Flanders donates some of it's money to Wallonia (12.68 BILLION a Year), out of solidairty. Good job, and blah blah.
However, what is done with our money? Yes, Dagoth, OUR Money. The money of the Flemish Taxpayer. Is it used to improve the Walloon Economy, as it should do? Alas!
You must have heard of corruption scandals in the PS lately. Guess which money was wasted! Yes, the money of the Walloon Government, but where does THAT money come from, mostly? From Our wallets that is. We in fact (partly) have been supporting, and STILL support the corrupt (Socialist) politicians in Wallonia. For at least 40 years! DO you realized what a waste that is? And NO reprecussions for the Corrupt Politicians, NONE. (after all, they are the same that actually "rule" the place). This is sheer INJUSTICE, and must be stopped. If the Walloons cannot use Flanders' money (and soon enough your and my money) for it's proper use, and they DON'T, they solidarity with Wallonia must end! I will not pay for the private pockets of some drunk, down-rotten socialist, I will *NOT*!!! And it won't stop, cause for as long as Wallonia's Economy suffers, the Money flow will continue, and the corrupt ones keep grabbing more and more. Untill someone resists and ends the so-called "solidarity" (Spinelessness would be a better word).
More Examples? Well, when Flanders itself was in need (Around 65 years ago), did Wallonia help us? Did it? NO, it did *NOT*. It left us to scramble for ourselves, sparing us only the left-overs. Now that FLanders is economically strong, and Wallonia is weak, we are supposed to help them, them who in practice still see us as lesser. An Outrage!
More? Well, the overall mentality is just rotten. When Walloons settle themselves in Flanders, they speak French, and expect they enviroment to speak french as well. That they speak French at home, is normal. In fact, it would have been abnormal if they didn't. However, Walloon citizens in Flemish Towns near the Language Border, refuse to be spoken too in Dutch in Administration Offices. Okay, it's their right to, as these Towns have Special French facilities for them.
However, if a Fleming would go to (let's say) Brussels, enter a Governmental/Administation building, and ask to be helped in Dutch, he would have been ignored in half of the cases. In the latter case, it's either the personnel that doesn't speak French, or refusing to speak Ducth, "the language of the common people", Around 50% of all Official Buildings, and that is a suposedly bilingual town. That's the mentality that's possessed by Walloons overall, and is fuelled by Fleming-haters, like the FDF. Most either see us (whether consiencly or subconsiously) as lesser, or expect us to "deliver" in some kind of way. That's a menality that's rooted into their demeanor, and I really hate saying this (honestly).
That's a few examples of the Walloon disdain. Just follow the Political news in wallonia, and you'll stumble upon is eventually. And more than just once.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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DagothGares
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posted June 08, 2009 11:56 PM |
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Lexxan, I don't want to lose the culture of the Walloons, if you understand me better, you know, Brel, Tintin, Red. 
If we split up, we openly acknowledge the fact that Flanders is hostile towards the Walloons or opposite, which just isn't true or shouldn't be there is little to no ground other than some stuck-up 'ambtenaren' (translation?) and corrupt politicians.
A country that's bilingual scores well in foreign relations and it forces the educational system to satdn stronger... Also, I like going to the Walloons, nice people (hey emotional argument vs emotional argument).
And the big money problem is more of an inherent flaw with goverment check-up or, if that's too difficult, with socialism. I mean, we are very socialist and put a lot of our money into government to keep everyone happy, but rather than disbanding our government to make sure we have enough money lft, we should maybe stop with universal healthcare, high minimum wages or, you know, the fact someone can have a decent living in here without aving worked a day in your life, you know, that kind of thing. I do see why you'd like Bart de Wever to be voted upon, since then our problem would be put to a halt, since the Walloons would go to France and we... DON'T go to the Dutch
What do you think we should do with our political leaders? (the constitutional monarchy)
And, well, I thought our education and such was in the hands of the EU 
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Lexxan
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posted June 08, 2009 11:58 PM |
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I'll reply tomorrow.
I'm a bit tired now, and I'm MUCH MORE AGREEABLE WITH REST!!
(BG reference)
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mvassilev
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posted June 09, 2009 12:16 AM |
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Galev:
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To seek nothing, but self-interest is called egoism and acceptedly wrong.
I beg to differ. There is nothing wrong with following one's own self-interest. Ethical egoism.
Death:
Nope, sorry. Altruism means you care about others above yourself. To quote Wikipedia, "[altruism is] a duty to relieve the distress and promote the happiness of our fellows...Altruism is to...maintain quite simply that a man may and should discount altogether his own pleasure or happiness as such when he is deciding what course of action to pursue."
There's a difference between helping others and altruism.
Dagoth and Lexxan:
IMO, Belgium should split up, but the two halves should be bound by a free trade and free migration pact (one separate from the EU's). As for what to do with Brussels, why not make it something like the capital of the EU).
And I agree with Lexxan. If the government didn't have to do so much, it wouldn't be as much of a problem.
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Galev
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posted June 09, 2009 08:39 PM |
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Off topic (sorry)
@Mvass
Though it would be interesting to discuss the matter, I wouldn't like to off topic too much, because I really know nothing about Belgian politics and I doubt that the moral questions about egoism and self interest have much connection to it -not more than to any other policy.
I received your reply and (hopefully) understood it. I just post because I don't want to look rude.
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Carry on
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TheDeath
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posted June 09, 2009 08:45 PM |
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Nope, sorry. Altruism means you care about others above yourself. To quote Wikipedia, "[altruism is] a duty to relieve the distress and promote the happiness of our fellows...Altruism is to...maintain quite simply that a man may and should discount altogether his own pleasure or happiness as such when he is deciding what course of action to pursue."
There's a difference between helping others and altruism.
First part is correct. You promote others' happiness because you promote yours as well. (unless you're emo).
On the other hand it can be made quite easily to look as disregarding for your self, but in reality it isn't. Take this example. Suppose either you, or 2 people, can live, but not all three of them.
Just because you sacrifice doesn't mean you don't care about yourself. Mathematically, if X is the amount you care for yourself, then the other two people's value is 2X, because they're 2, hence the action (sacrifice).
If you were to not sacrifice then you would put value to your own self as twice that or above them. Certainly egoism and nothing to do with equality at all.
By the way, of course not all people have the same values. Altruism doesn't mean you should look at others, whatever they may be, the same as yourself. But let's put this easier: between you and your "clones", they MUST have the same value individually as your own self, else you aren't altruistic.
Anyway of course altruist people don't sacrifice for those 2 if they are, let's say, serial killers or something
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mvassilev
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posted June 09, 2009 09:15 PM |
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Mathematically, if X is the amount you care for yourself, then the other two people's value is 2X, because they're 2, hence the action (sacrifice).
According to your analysis, it would be equal to sacrifice any of the three people - because the value of the survivors would be 2X anyway. So it wouldn't follow that one should sacrifice oneself, even in that situation.
But one's own life is more important than that of any other person, anyway.
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TheDeath
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posted June 09, 2009 09:23 PM |
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According to your analysis, it would be equal to sacrifice any of the three people - because the value of the survivors would be 2X anyway. So it wouldn't follow that one should sacrifice oneself, even in that situation.
But the situation called that you either sacrifice yourself, or the other 2. Like the classic train tracks stuff or something and you have a remote control, for instance.
(though rational people would try to find a third solution if possible)
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But one's own life is more important than that of any other person, anyway.
I'm sorry but it's this narrowminded view that leads you to believe that altruism means "your life == worthless, others' life == important". Sorry but you're living in either "my life is important" or "my life is worthless". There's no "it's equal" (of course, like I said, it also depends on your morals, like you wouldn't place it of equal value to some killer, but let's use clones for simplicity).
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JollyJoker
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posted June 09, 2009 10:57 PM |
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I didn't know that Belgium had that grave problems. I mean, sacrificing two for one or one for two on any number of train tracks - sounds a bit harsh, really.
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mvassilev
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posted June 10, 2009 12:44 AM |
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But the situation called that you either sacrifice yourself, or the other 2. Like the classic train tracks stuff or something and you have a remote control, for instance.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your example. I thought any one of the three could be sacrificed for it to work.
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There's no "it's equal"
There is no "it's equal". Either you acknowledge that it is your life that makes anything possible for you, and thus is the highest value, or you don't - in which case, what is it worth anyway? "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?"
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TheDeath
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posted June 10, 2009 12:46 AM |
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I didn't know that Belgium had that grave problems. I mean, sacrificing two for one or one for two on any number of train tracks - sounds a bit harsh, really.
Sometimes there's failure of communication. When people think of a word in two different meanings, you won't get much far in a thread, probably that is WHY stuff gets repeated.
"No I think X is good, but not Y"
"X includes Y"
"No it doesn't"
"Yes it does"
"No it doesn't, and I can't explain, you know, people will say it's off topic"
"Whatever. What you said still doesn't make sense"
"Why do we bother then?"
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DagothGares
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posted June 10, 2009 12:49 AM |
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*ahem*
Belgium, gentlemen?
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jormungand
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posted July 20, 2009 11:06 AM |
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I say:
1)Kick all non-working and non-flemish-speaking migrants out of Flanders(give them to the waloons if you want to, they dont work either)
2)split belgium
why?
1)They get money without doing anything. Speak the national language!!!(<---is this that hard?)
2)-If france would ask 'hey waloons, unite with france'. they would say 'oh thank you, nice to get rid of these flammands'
-2different cultures cant exist in one country
-the same with languages
-If Flanders wants to be independent, the waloons say 'NON, we need flemish tax money'
-flanders would exist very well independent
about quote wars
From now on I will call everyone who is flemish-minded "Klauwaert"
and every waloon-minded person "Leliaert"
This war has already been fought in 1302, but with real weapons and Flanders came out of that war INDEPENDENT
A pity that soon after that war Flanders was again unindependent...
Because the Flemish went back to their homes(they had released their homeland from france and didn't see the reason for fighting any further)
Just remember, if the Flemish would have wanted, they could have conquered france itself, but all they wanted was to be independent.
With this i dont say kill every waloon-minded-people, but if the Flemish would rise again, they would be independent oncemore
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I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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