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nurul
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 23, 2008 08:21 PM |
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Might VS Magic
I think Heroes 6 sill be more interesting if there are some Might faction. It means Heroes of these faction cannot learn magic, but have a Special Might Power.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 23, 2008 08:31 PM |
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You're describing the H5 Orcs. 
The Barbarians (the Orcish heroes) can't use any kind of magic at all, but they have War Cries. In H5, there are a several Might factions (Humans, Elves, Demons), but the Orcs are the only absolute Might faction, without any possiblity of Magic. Maybe H5 will also contain a consept of absolute Might (or absolute Magic?), but we can't know.
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nurul
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 23, 2008 08:42 PM |
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yes it is.
But more Might faction will be interesting to play.
In my opinion, Might is not only meant the power of 'muscle'
Brain power also can be might.
A scientist faction with some combination of human and mechanical creature can be added. like the legendary Atlantis maybe;
Or may be Alchemist faction with chemical ability, etc..
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 23, 2008 11:08 PM |
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Intellegence and knowledge tend to symbolzie magic but cunning and strength symbolize might.
However the shamans in TOTE seem to have all of the first 3, So i guess its not exclusive.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Finrinflux
Tavern Dweller
True Conflux
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posted December 12, 2008 04:34 PM |
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well stronghold in HOMM5 are mostly might, i have a hard time to see any magic (I would not say warcryes are magic).
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When the good say that someone is evil, that person will say he himself is good from his point of view
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 12, 2008 07:29 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 21:45, 12 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
In my opinion, Might is not only meant the power of 'muscle'
Brain power also can be might.
A scientist faction with some combination of human and mechanical creature can be added. like the legendary Atlantis maybe;
I agree
But I'd say: Why not go with the common idea of non-magical dwarves?
Make Dwarves a might-faction, without (spell)-magic and either runic or technology fixed.
ideas for several non-magical factions:
-Barbarians/Stronghold (Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, trolls, etc.), physically powerful, strong RAGE-racial)
-Dwarves/Fortress (Well, Dwarves and maybe theyr allies; Rune-abilities instead of magic)
-Inventors/Forge (Mostly Gnomes and Humans, many mechanical units; Some science/Technology-racial)
-Librarians/Library (Intelligent members of several races, f.e. humans, centaurs, elves, and many more, who have a special interest in studying the non-magical non-technical lore; racial would be some kidn of Lore-Racial, through which you get some bnusses by knowledge...would have to figure it out)
-The banished/Ruins (Former Elves have been cursed by the gods and every drop of magic has been ripped out of them; Some kind of special battle-racial)
-The Witchhunters/Keep (Humans who deny using magic, because they see it as always evil; Some prayer/exorcism/etc. Racial)
Edit:
two more ideas popped into my mind:
-Alchemists/Labratory (could contain of rather different units, would have an alchemy-racial)
-Beastmen/Bastion (wild Beastmen, like centaurs, wolfmen, catman, minotaurs, etc.; having a beastmaster-racial and no magic)
-Voodoo Priests/Bulwark (mix of undead and scaled humanoid/lizardmen creatures and other swamp dwelling beings; Special Voodoo-"magic" ability - using special voodoo artifacts instead of spells)
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Zozma
Hired Hero
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posted December 13, 2008 12:56 AM |
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I think it'd be a bit of a fallacy to deviate from the original Heroes storyline and its strong sci-fi roots only to return to them. Games that feature both magic and technology tend to favor the latter over the former. I think we're in a good place with catapults and ballistas.
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jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 13, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Quote:
Games that feature both magic and technology tend to favor the latter over the former.
That is no need-to-be. An example is Final Fantasy 9, or better, the FInal Fantasy series at general. Most games (from 6 on^^) feature both magic and technology but you cannot say that technology is more favored. THe same goes for rise of legends, imo, and several other games.
When I speak of technology I mean very basic things, maybe based on the da-vinci-kind of inventions...the most modern technology to be used could be firepowder - allthough, in my opinion, steam engines would be funny, but of course a bit too moden for HoMM.
And what do you mean by the "sci-fi roots" of the former heroes-storyline - except of the forge, which wan't introduced and MAYBE the dimension gates, I see no sci-fi there
Aaaand, as I've shown, there is not only technology as only alternative to muscles when speaking of "Might"
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted December 13, 2008 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
allthough, in my opinion, steam engines would be funny, but of course a bit too moden for HoMM.
I wouldn't say that. I think there isn't such a big step from Heroes 4's dragon golems and steam engines.
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Zozma
Hired Hero
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posted December 13, 2008 07:48 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Games that feature both magic and technology tend to favor the latter over the former.
And what do you mean by the "sci-fi roots" of the former heroes-storyline - except of the forge, which wan't introduced and MAYBE the dimension gates, I see no sci-fi there
Aaaand, as I've shown, there is not only technology as only alternative to muscles when speaking of "Might"
As far as FF is concerned, there are a few instances where technology trumped mysticism within the game's storylines. In six machines were able to mimic the properties of magic and the backstory of 10 made it obvious which side was superior. Even if you ignore that, might is always better than magic, as physical attacks in any FF game will always be more powerful than anything, save maybe a final summon. But that's neither here nor there.
The entire Might and Magic (and HoMM by proxy) series save for five was set on a world originally colonated by space-faring, Star Trek-esque humans, no? Likewise, the inferno faction weren't really demons, but Kreegans, an alien organism that warred with the technologically advanced humans.
I think my main qualms with the use of technology is that it tends to conflict the fantasy roots. Put in primitive technology and it'll have to be on par with every other faction for the sake of balance. This leads to the assumption that were their technology more advanced, no faction would be able to stand up to it, which is ridiculous as even today raining meteors and lightning bolts down on enemies would lead to incredible devestation. Likewise, if you put advanced technology in and have it on par with the other factions you return to the old Might and Magic roots. It's more of a conflict of preferences on my part than anything else.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 13, 2008 08:02 PM |
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Quote:
This leads to the assumption that were their technology more advanced, no faction would be able to stand up to it
Why? Having an Ion Cannon instead of a ballista doesn't change a Meteor Shower. Give creature X a gun, it won't change the fact that it is destroyed in a Meteor Shower. But the problem is that people always want advanced stuff to be "realistic" or "powerful" while they don't for stuff like a Meteor Shower. I.e: they want gunpowder to be powerful, but if we go by that logic, Implosion (from H5) should kill absolutely everything in one blow.
After all, that's what black holes do right? You can't be realistic only on 'might'. If you make might powerful (aka 'realistic') then better be prepared to accept that some spell effects (not the spell itself but what it does) are just too damn powerful on a 'realistic' perspective -- that is, the effect of a meteor shower spell for example, is devastating.
What's next? A nuke spell that does less damage than a shot from a 50-BMG caliber rifle? How is that even comprehensible is beyond me.
plus people always seem to have this thing with "it should be similar to our world". Face it, it's different. In the real world there are no elves, dwarves, Heroes demons, wizards, magic, etc... so how can you possibly expect a similar path? If you have magical-floating platforms why would you need an anti-gravity device? So it is obvious that it would be completely different 'focused' on. COMPLETELY.
And who said the laws of physics are the same, since for example it seems magic is alright? 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Zozma
Hired Hero
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posted December 14, 2008 03:21 AM |
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Quote:
Why? Having an Ion Cannon instead of a ballista doesn't change a Meteor Shower. Give creature X a gun, it won't change the fact that it is destroyed in a Meteor Shower. But the problem is that people always want advanced stuff to be "realistic" or "powerful" while they don't for stuff like a Meteor Shower. I.e: they want gunpowder to be powerful, but if we go by that logic, Implosion (from H5) should kill absolutely everything in one blow.
After all, that's what black holes do right? You can't be realistic only on 'might'. If you make might powerful (aka 'realistic') then better be prepared to accept that some spell effects (not the spell itself but what it does) are just too damn powerful on a 'realistic' perspective -- that is, the effect of a meteor shower spell for example, is devastating.
I'm having some difficulty following you, your wording makes it sound like you're both supporting and denouncing realism. I apologize for the inconvenience, but could you rephrase your points?
Quote:
What's next? A nuke spell that does less damage than a shot from a 50-BMG caliber rifle? How is that even comprehensible is beyond me.
It's not like it has never happened in the fantasy genre before.
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plus people always seem to have this thing with "it should be similar to our world". Face it, it's different. In the real world there are no elves, dwarves, Heroes demons, wizards, magic, etc... so how can you possibly expect a similar path? If you have magical-floating platforms why would you need an anti-gravity device? So it is obvious that it would be completely different 'focused' on. COMPLETELY.
You'd need an anti-gravity device because a might faction wouldn't use magic. And I'm not quite sure how an anti-gravity device has any bearing on our world .
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And who said the laws of physics are the same, since for example it seems magic is alright?
At this point we can only speculate as to what magic is in HOMM5. It's different in every fantasy setting. Is magic the ability to ignore the laws of physics and impress your own view of reality on the cosmos? Is magic the manipulation of universal ideologies that manifest themselves as fire or positive life force? What are magic's limitations? Why can you conjure a giant, flaming bird but not a single gold coin? Why are certain creatures immune or resistant to magic? We don't really know the answers to any of those questions, and until we can truly say what magic is we can't say what the laws of physics in HOMM5 aren't.
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