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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: 60 Years to Israel
Thread: 60 Years to Israel This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 14, 2008 07:16 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 19:24, 14 May 2008.

Day of Atonement War - 1973

Background: in 1973 Israel's borders were very wide. They included Sinai  peninsula (that we captured from Egypt in 1967) and the Golan Heights (that we captured from Syria in 1967). Those two areas were strategically very imporant; The Syrians had bombarded our towns in the Jordan valley  easily from the Golan Heights, and the Egyptian president, Sadat, said that he was willing to lose a million soldiers to get Sinai peninsula back. Back then, Israel didn't have peace with any of the nearby states.

Israel's borders in 1973:


Syria and Egypt made what was supposed to be a periodic exercise, how to cooperate and defend under an attack. But instead of putting their forces in the regular defensive positions (around Damascus for Syria and around the Nile Delta for Egypt) the put them in a more offensive positions, around their borders with Israel. Egypt put its forces around Suez canal (which separates Sinai peninsula and Egypt) and Suria put its soldiers in front of the Golan Heights.

These weren't the only signs that Israel had. There were also a several other things:

1. A few weeks earlier, there was a secret meeting between the king of Jordan, Husain and the Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir. Husain warned her that Syria and Egypt are planning to attack.

2. Secret listenings told that this attack is going to happen.

3. The Egyptian soldiers were commanded to eat during the Ramadan festing, which is a violation of the Islam laws. This has never happened before.

4. On 4th of October started an evacuation of the Soviet councils families from Egypt and Syria.

5. The exercise that was planned to the beginning of October wasn't executed, but the forces remained on the same place.

But still, the official report of the Israeli intelligence was "The  probability that the Egyptians are going to renew the fighting is low".

How could it happen? Israel had so many signs and warnings, but still, it couldn't predict this surprise attack?
The reasons for that failure of the Israel intelligence were:

1. Egypt was in a very hard condition after the Six Days war in 1967. According to the calculations, in 6 days of fighting the entire economy of Egypt will crush. Israel didn't believe that Egypt would take this huge risk.

2. Israel believed that Syria wouldn't attack Israel alone, since it's just not strong enough (Israel was sure that Egypt is not going to battle).

3. Israel recruited all the soldiers on reserve duty in May of that year for nothing, and was afraid to make the same mistake again.

4. The defense minister of Israel believed that if there's a war, it can be prevented by nagogation and diplomatics.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Development of the War:

Syria and Egypt attacked Israel at 2:00 PM, 6th of October 1973. That day was the Day of Atonement, the most imporant Jewish holiday. The attack of Syria and Egypt was a total surprise. However, since everyone were at their homes, the recuitment of soldiers on reserve duty was very quick.
On the first day of the war (6th of October), the Israeli Hermon post, that helped to defend the Golan Heights was captured by the Syrian forces. The Egyptians managed to transport their forces to the west of Suez canal.
On the first 5 days, the Israeli forces did nothing but blocking the attack on both battlefronts. The Egyptians surprised them with advanced weapons (for example, the Sager, a anti-tank rockets that was used by infantry units, and caused many losts to the Israel armored units). The Isrealis were surprised by the motivation of the enemy forces, and their strength, how much better they are than what they were like in 1967.
By the 10th of October, the Israeli army has managed to recapture all the land that the Syrian army captured, except of the Hermon post.
From the 11th of October to to 14th, in the south, Israel was defending and recuiting forces against the Egyptians. In the north, Israel managed to break the Syrian defense line and going towards Damascus.
Israel tries to do a cease-fire on the 12th of October, but Sadat, the Egyptian president, refuses. Kissinger, the USA president, decided to send Israel supply and weapons.
On the 14th of October, Egypt attacked agressively, trying to get deep into Sinai peninsula. Israel blocked the powerful attack. On that day the Egyptians lost more than 200 tanks while Israel lost only 20. From that point, Israel started attacking the Egyptians back.
At the evening of the 15th of October started the "Heart Knights" operation of the Israeli army, to cross Suez canal. The operation succeeded, and Israel captured wide areas in the west of the canal, and circled the 3rd legion of the Egyptions. The 3rd legions' soliders remained without supply, and coudln't fight.
On the 22th of October, after a battle of 12 hours, the Israeli army captured the Hermon post.
The Egyptians and the Syrians agreed to a cease-fire in the 24th of October, when the Israeli army was only 100 kilometers from Cairo, and Damascus was already in the range of the Israel army cannons.

The results of the war



The table mentioned the lost of every state, not what damage it cause. For example, it says that 2656 Israeli soldiers were killed, NOT that Israel killed 2656 soldiers.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 14, 2008 07:23 PM

Quote:
Oh I just came to think that your first post is missing one picture at least. That is the situation in the area in 1947



Arab population at the British mandated Palestine was 1.7 million in 1945. When Isreal declared itself independent, a bloody war erupted between Isreal and neighbouring arab countries. A great amount of palestinian arabs fled or were departed from the territories of the newly founded jewish state. Estimates vary between 600,000-900,000, the official estimate of the UN is 711,000. Over 400 Palestinian villages were completely destroyed in the occupied territories and the property of the refugees were confiscated. Occupied territories here refers to the ares that were not allocated to Israel by the UN.

That could be the beginning face of your article (just so that people understand why Palestinians mourn the day you celebrate) Oh and that 1973 looks interesting, I'll look at it with more detail later.

This is very untrue.

The Inpedence war didn't start when Israel declared independence. It started in 1947, after the UN declaration of the partition plan. The Palestinians attacked us. In 1948, after Israel declared independence, 7 arab states joined the Palestinians.

In 1948, the number of Jews and Arabs in the area was similar: about 600,000 each.

And in the map that you're showing, mention that the yellow part is not palestinian - it's british. If you show where the Palestinian settled, you will get something like the organge part in that map.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 14, 2008 07:36 PM

Quote:


The Inpedence war didn't start when Israel declared independence. It started in 1947, after the UN declaration of the partition plan. The Palestinians attacked us. In 1948, after Israel declared independence, 7 arab states joined the Palestinians.



Well, you are right, I jumper right to the events after Isreal declared itself independent. That is to the year 1948. The numbers I have are after the declaration of independence because deportation of Arabs didn't happen before that (as far as I know) It was to highlight why especially that day is a day of sorrow for Palestinians.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 14, 2008 08:06 PM

The Palestianian leaders have never agreed to compromise. They didn't agree to even one partition plans, and after the last one had been declared, they attacked us. The Palestianian leaders still refuse to recognize the existance of the state of Israel, even today, when we rule them and want to give them their own state, they refuse. They say that they will get the entire land, and nothing less.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 14, 2008 11:47 PM

Excuse me? So Israel is just trying to reach an agreement all teh time and they are against it all the time? It isn't as black and white as that.

In December 1975, the UN Security Council agreed to consider a resolution proposed by the Arab “confrontation states” with these provisions, also incorporating the basic wording of UN 242. The US vetoed the resolution. Israel’s reaction was to bomb Lebanon, killing over 50 people in Nabatiye, calling the attack “preventive” – presumably to “prevent” the UN session, which Israel boycotted.

In January 2001, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators came close to agreement in Taba. But the negotiations were called off by Israeli Prime Minister Barak four days early, ending that promising effort. Unofficial but high-level negotiations continued, leading to the Geneva Accord of December 2002, with similar proposals. It was welcomed by most of the world, but rejected by Israel and dismissed by Washington

Currently, the US and Israel demand that Hamas accept the 2002 Arab League Beirut proposal for full normalization of relations with Israel after withdrawal in accord with the international consensus. The proposal has long been accepted by the PLO, and it has also been formally accepted by the “supreme leader” of Iran, Ayatollah Khamenei. Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah has made it clear that Hezbollah would not disrupt such an agreement if it is accepted by Palestinians. Hamas has repeatedly indicated its willingness to negotiate in these terms.

What we see, instead, is the stern warning to Hamas by the editors of the New York Times that their formal agreement to the Beirut peace plan is “an admission ticket to the real world, a necessary rite of passage in the progression from a lawless opposition to a lawful government.” Like others, the NYT editors fail to mention that the US and Israel forcefully reject this proposal.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2008 06:42 AM
Edited by GenieLord at 06:43, 15 May 2008.

Quote:
Excuse me? So Israel is just trying to reach an agreement all teh time and they are against it all the time? It isn't as black and white as that.

We understand that's it's reasonable to give them a country.
We don't say "Israel is completely ours or nothing", like they do.

Quote:
In December 1975, the UN Security Council agreed to consider a resolution proposed by the Arab “confrontation states” with these provisions, also incorporating the basic wording of UN 242. The US vetoed the resolution. Israel’s reaction was to bomb Lebanon, killing over 50 people in Nabatiye, calling the attack “preventive” – presumably to “prevent” the UN session, which Israel boycotted.

Please check the conditions of that "suggestion". If they are something like "One arab state which the Jews can live in" it's obvious why we didn't take it. We're looking for agreement, but something reasonable for us, too.
Every time we bomb, we kill people who plan attacks/suicide bombing on us. The people around the wanted sometimes get hurt, too. The point is, that if we kill someone, it's a specific person that we plan to kill. We don't just bomb crowds of civillans. It sounds like that from your text.
And BTW, maybe we did prevent a war between us and Lebanon in 1975? Believe me that the Israel knew more than you know today about the condition between Israel and lebanon in 1975. You're talking like you know there wasn't going to be a war.

Quote:
In January 2001, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators came close to agreement in Taba. But the negotiations were called off by Israeli Prime Minister Barak four days early, ending that promising effort. Unofficial but high-level negotiations continued, leading to the Geneva Accord of December 2002, with similar proposals. It was welcomed by most of the world, but rejected by Israel and dismissed by Washington

Barak was quite an idiot, you can blame him.



Quote:
Currently, the US and Israel demand that Hamas accept the 2002 Arab League Beirut proposal for full normalization of relations with Israel after withdrawal in accord with the international consensus. The proposal has long been accepted by the PLO, and it has also been formally accepted by the “supreme leader” of Iran, Ayatollah Khamenei. Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah has made it clear that Hezbollah would not disrupt such an agreement if it is accepted by Palestinians. Hamas has repeatedly indicated its willingness to negotiate in these terms.

What we see, instead, is the stern warning to Hamas by the editors of the New York Times that their formal agreement to the Beirut peace plan is “an admission ticket to the real world, a necessary rite of passage in the progression from a lawless opposition to a lawful government.” Like others, the NYT editors fail to mention that the US and Israel forcefully reject this proposal.


You're wrong: We agreed to that suggestion, but let me tell you what happened.

In the beginning of 2003, we agreed to have an "Hunda" with the Palestinians. That's sort of a cease-fire of both sides; they stop sending suicide bombers, and we stop the operations in Gaza strip. We really stopped sending any troops to Gaza, and they made horrible terrorist attacks. During that "cease-fire" they killed more Israeli civillians than ever before.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2008 06:20 PM

Quote:

We understand that's it's reasonable to give them a country.
We don't say "Israel is completely ours or nothing", like they do.



First of all that is not only reasonbale, that is something Isreal MUST do. You make it sound like this is actually ok like it is, but you are just noble enough to give teh Palestinians land out of mercy and good will. Well no. You were never meant to take control of the entire area. Now you are (illegally) occupying the territory. Including Golan Heights from Syria.

Second of all, you are bying all too well your government propaganda. You put all the blame on the Palestinians, conveniently. The Palestinian regime has not refused to all and everything, neither has Isreal but there are a lot of cases when you have. Seems like you are deliberately black painting Palestinians, or you blindly following what the media tells you.

Quote:

You're wrong: We agreed to that suggestion, but let me tell you what happened.

In the beginning of 2003, we agreed to have an "Hunda" with the Palestinians. That's sort of a cease-fire of both sides; they stop sending suicide bombers, and we stop the operations in Gaza strip. We really stopped sending any troops to Gaza, and they made horrible terrorist attacks. During that "cease-fire" they killed more Israeli civillians than ever before.


Wow, what a great cease-fire! Palestinians must agree not to do anything. Isreal agrees to leave Gaza strip alone, but continues operations all around elsewhere with renewed passion, including arresting 320 palestinians and assassinations of for example Mohammed Sidr the head of the military branch of Islamic Jihad in Hebron. You assume they would just sit idle while you do those kind of things? If those are your terms, NO WONDER the cease-fires don't last.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2008 06:59 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 19:05, 15 May 2008.

Quote:
First of all that is not only reasonbale, that is something Isreal MUST do. You make it sound like this is actually ok like it is, but you are just noble enough to give teh Palestinians land out of mercy and good will. Well no. You were never meant to take control of the entire area. Now you are (illegally) occupying the territory. Including Golan Heights from Syria.

We are telling the Palestinians that they should have their own state, but they refuse. They say that their state will be on all the zone or nothing else.
You know, we keep the Palestinians alive. We can stop giving them food, electricity, medical care, and treat them like they treat us. They will die. Yes, things are unfair, but we treat them 1000 times better than they treat us. If they could, they would kill us. We can kill them, but we don't do it.

We were attacked, and during those wars we captured Israel. It's ours. We are willing to give them some lands, and that's it. They don't want to take those lands? Their problem. They are greedy. They say "all Israel or nothing".

About the Golan Heights:
The Syrians had put their snipers and cannons on the Golan heights, and had shot the Israeli towns in the valley under it. Before we captured it, people had been afraid to get out of their houses. They had had to run under snipers' fire. Imagine how it is to live like that, and understand why we keep the Golan heights.

Quote:
Second of all, you are bying all too well your government propaganda. You put all the blame on the Palestinians, conveniently. The Palestinian regime has not refused to all and everything, neither has Isreal but there are a lot of cases when you have. Seems like you are deliberately black painting Palestinians, or you blindly following what the media tells you.

Prove it.

Quote:
Wow, what a great cease-fire! Palestinians must agree not to do anything. Isreal agrees to leave Gaza strip alone, but continues operations all around elsewhere with renewed passion, including arresting 320 palestinians and assassinations of for example Mohammed Sidr the head of the military branch of Islamic Jihad in Hebron. You assume they would just sit idle while you do those kind of things? If those are your terms, NO WONDER the cease-fires don't last.
This is simply false.
I was there. I can tell you exactly what happened: During that Hudna we didn't kill Palestinians, and they used it to send terrorist attacks. I'll be honest with you, their attacks came less often than regulary, but they were very painful, because we assumed that they wouldn't attack and we didn't watch out.
Many people said that we can't let this happen, that we have to responde. Others say that we have to give this Hudna a chance. We argued like that for months, until we decided that we can't continue to suffer and finished that Hudna.

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ismail222
ismail222


Known Hero
The Cataclysm
posted May 15, 2008 10:34 PM
Edited by ismail222 at 22:39, 15 May 2008.

Wow it's remarkable how Israel always plays the victim,while they're actually the strongest force on this planet.

Besides the only reason  Israel is keeping the Palestinians alive is not to generate more controversy.Otherwise Israel would've killed them;Cause at the end of the day,they do Israel no good.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2008 10:35 AM

The level of this discussion is falling, and I don't intend to answer anything to these claims below. Everyone can think for themselves if these have any value what so ever.
Quote:

- They say that their state will be on all the zone or nothing else.
- If they could, they would kill us. We can kill them, but we don't do it.
- They are greedy.
- They say "all Israel or nothing".


Ok, I do answer to one claim. Even the prime minister of Hamas with much higher antipathy towards Israel than Fatah, has stated that Isreal is there to stay. And this is the opinion of a radical, so what are the opinions of the moderate ones?
Quote:

About the Golan Heights:
The Syrians had put their snipers and cannons on the Golan heights, and had shot the Israeli towns in the valley under it. Before we captured it, people had been afraid to get out of their houses. They had had to run under snipers' fire. Imagine how it is to live like that, and understand why we keep the Golan heights.


Syria has agreed to a full peace treaty if you return the land that you took from them. That is obviously not good enough for your government. And even not for you apparently because you think that "we took it, now it's ours". Might makes right. I disagree totally.

As for the 2003 hudna you have your version of the events and I have mine it seems. I'd want to believe you but I can't do that, you are so biased towards one opinion. That horrible caricature of palestinian mindset shows it all too well.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2008 11:00 AM

Quote:
Wow it's remarkable how Israel always plays the victim,while they're actually the strongest force on this planet.

We wish.

Quote:
Besides the only reason  Israel is keeping the Palestinians alive is not to generate more controversy.Otherwise Israel would've killed them;Cause at the end of the day,they do Israel no good.
No, we would never kill them because we are humane. We remember how the Natzis killed 6 million Jews and we will never do another thing like that, no matter what.

Quote:
Ok, I do answer to one claim. Even the prime minister of Hamas with much higher antipathy towards Israel than Fatah, has stated that Isreal is there to stay. And this is the opinion of a radical, so what are the opinions of the moderate ones?
Do you think that the moderate rule the Palestinians? Do you think that they are the ones who kill us?
Before the second indifada, Palestinians came to work in Israel, and their economy was better than ever before. The moderate Palestinians have been suffering from the beginning of the Indifada, because now they can't work here, we don't let them pass, fearing that they might be suiciding bombers. They only lose from it, but they can do nothing about it. What can we do?

Quote:
Syria has agreed to a full peace treaty if you return the land that you took from them. That is obviously not good enough for your government. And even not for you apparently because you think that "we took it, now it's ours". Might makes right. I disagree totally.

Do you really think that if we give them the Golan Heights they won't shoot us from there? LOL.
We prerfer to keep our people safe from the Syrian snipers' fire than to look good in the world's eyes.

Quote:
That horrible caricature of palestinian mindset shows it all too well.
I don't have any "caricature of palestinian", but maybe of their extreme leaders. As I said, the Palestinians worked here before the second indifada, and eventhough I was only a kid, I talked to them. They are people just like you and me.

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted May 16, 2008 12:32 PM


Quote:
Second of all, you are bying all too well your government propaganda. You put all the blame on the Palestinians, conveniently. The Palestinian regime has not refused to all and everything, neither has Isreal but there are a lot of cases when you have. Seems like you are deliberately black painting Palestinians, or you blindly following what the media tells you.

What happened to attack the argument , not the arguer? I could say something similar about noam chomsky but you seem to have conviniently evaded that.
And yes i think you dont understand the strategical value of the golan heights . Israel is a tiny country. its not like the distance between America and Iran where you need a huge rocket to attack, even small projectiles can be shot from there and easily kill anyone. And from the gaza strip it seems that giving back land doesnt do much to help Israel. Right after the demand "give back our land!" pops up it seems theres a new demand to do something else.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2008 12:58 PM
Edited by Minion at 13:00, 16 May 2008.

Quote:

Quote:
Second of all, you are bying all too well your government propaganda. You put all the blame on the Palestinians, conveniently. The Palestinian regime has not refused to all and everything, neither has Isreal but there are a lot of cases when you have. Seems like you are deliberately black painting Palestinians, or you blindly following what the media tells you.

What happened to attack the argument , not the arguer? I could say something similar about noam chomsky but you seem to have conviniently evaded that.
And yes i think you dont understand the strategical value of the golan heights . Israel is a tiny country. its not like the distance between America and Iran where you need a huge rocket to attack, even small projectiles can be shot from there and easily kill anyone. And from the gaza strip it seems that giving back land doesnt do much to help Israel. Right after the demand "give back our land!" pops up it seems theres a new demand to do something else.


Once he stated those ridiculous claims about "palestinians would kill us if they could" I took a harsher tone for a second. He rightly has corrected that he didn't mean all palestinians, which I am glad to hear. That was not my main argument, unlike yours where you brought nothing to the discussion but complaining how Chomsky makes money out of criticizing Israel etc. There is a difference. You can first state what is wrong with a atetement with evidence and then perhaps speculate as to why the person has come to a wrong conclusion. (btw, saying that "I don't believe that one bit" is not an argument, although when the information you have is scarce you may be forced to make up your mind on the basis on your belief)

I am not questioning the strategical importance of Golan Heights btw, all though I am probably unaware of all the details. I just stated what is the offer from Syria, that is it. I didn't go into the details. But unlike GL I refuse to accept the Might Makes Right philosophy, although that is how the world works (at least without supervision)


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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 16, 2008 01:50 PM

It's not a question of "might makes right". "Might makes right" is not working.
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ismail222
ismail222


Known Hero
The Cataclysm
posted May 16, 2008 04:57 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Wow it's remarkable how Israel always plays the victim,while they're actually the strongest force on this planet.

We wish.



Actually Israel is.Look how many countries protect and support Israel,not only the US which means that not a single country would dare to start a war with Israel,unless China sends 100 milion people there to live .
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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2008 05:01 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 17:53, 16 May 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wow it's remarkable how Israel always plays the victim,while they're actually the strongest force on this planet.

We wish.



Actually Israel is.Look how many countries protect and support Israel,not only the US which means that not a single country would dare to start a war with Israel,unless China sends 100 milion people there to live .

Believe me, a lot of countries have dared to fight Israel. Too many.

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ismail222
ismail222


Known Hero
The Cataclysm
posted May 16, 2008 08:20 PM

That was in the past,and besides,they all ended up in defeat.
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Faith
Faith

Disgraceful
Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2008 11:55 AM - penalty applied by angelito on 01 Sep 2008.

Sooner or later, Israel and all Jews will be eliminated from this world.
All Zionist are infidel. All infidel go to hell!!
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted May 21, 2008 12:19 PM

Just a quick question/observation, then back on topic honest.

To those out there that think that any of a differnt faith should parish I pose a few interesting questions.

Do you believe your deity is all knowing, all powerful?
If so, why would he/she/it need you to do it's dirty work for them?
Unless they are not a good deity, but an evil one, in which case why would you follow them?
In truth, a all knowing/all seeing/all powerful god can handle things on their own.  Worship them and let THEM figure it out.  Unless you don't have faith they can.

Now back on topic.  (Yes, I know the above risks a -qp. but *shrugs* so be it.  I get tired of hatred, nothing positive can come of it). I think this problem is going to take a long time to figure out.  Maybe one day we will find the exact thing that both can agree to, but I fear that is a long way away.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 21, 2008 12:32 PM

Bah that's nothing.

I've had worse and still no -qps.
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