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| Thread: Recanters on Balance template? | |
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2008 04:58 AM |
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Edited by Elric at 05:01, 05 May 2008.
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Recanters on Balance template?
I was playing the Balance Heroes III template recently (Size L) and I found the Recanters Cloak. Guarded by a throng of orcs (misplaced guard no less  ).
That seemed very strange to me because I thought the Balance template was supposed to have no artifacts of the major or relic class (except from warrior's tomb). Is it that Balance only very rarely has these artifacts but they're not completely excluded from the random map settings?
Also, while I'm at it, I ran across 7 Dragonfly Hives all located next to each other in this same game. Is there a reason why the generator puts so many hives together? Help appreciated.
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fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
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posted May 05, 2008 07:08 AM |
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Edited by fank0 at 07:09, 05 May 2008.
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Sometimes the map is generated with a very dense hive zone - could reach 15 hives very close one to another. In my opinion when the map has such a layout it is not generated properly and the game should be restarted. 50 + wyverns is too much on balance. Most often there is a road following the borders of the map leading to the hive zone. It takes may be two full hero movements to reach it by it.
About the recanter. I guess it is the same case, some bug.
I also ran into utopias a couple of times on balance - again bad map.
Also, warrior's tombs can be really unfair - the chance for a relic is 5% but you still could be lucky and get HH, SOJ , gladius , sentinel , some other relic att/def artifact which would most likely guarantee you winning the game. In TE relics in warrior's tombs are replaced by endless sack of gold which is a very good modification.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2008 10:55 AM |
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@Recanters: I dont understand it. Shouldnt be possible.
Its also possible to get a major artifact from a black marked. Sometimes the map is generated with border guards which lowers the value of the item behind the border guard. This fact makes topes possible too, but in most cases its hard to find the tent since its a long way from the border guard.
The hive area is the true t-area on balance. It also contains some gold mines and other usefull stuff. Its not easy to reach since it lies next to the desert and in many games none of the players ever reach it. Reaching it first is an important part of game strategy on balance. 15 hives close to each other is not a bug but how the temp was designed. It works fine imo.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 05, 2008 02:34 PM |
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I will check the numbers in the rmg (balance) this evening when I come back home, so I can say more about major arties on Balance template. Currently I have played 2 games the last 3 years on that template, so my knowledge is very poor.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 08, 2008 08:48 AM |
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Quote:
@Recanters: I dont understand it. Shouldnt be possible.
Its also possible to get a major artifact from a black marked. Sometimes the map is generated with border guards which lowers the value of the item behind the border guard. This fact makes topes possible too, but in most cases its hard to find the tent since its a long way from the border guard.
The hive area is the true t-area on balance. It also contains some gold mines and other usefull stuff. Its not easy to reach since it lies next to the desert and in many games none of the players ever reach it. Reaching it first is an important part of game strategy on balance. 15 hives close to each other is not a bug but how the temp was designed. It works fine imo.
You're right about major artifacts from black market- hadn't thought about that before, but just saw Sword of Hellfire in a market. I generated several Balance L maps and looked for hive zones- it seems like 7+ hives all clustered together is fairly rare, but that the template usually has a spot with 3-5 hives (sometimes in the treasure zone). I never saw 10+ hives in a cluster in the maps generated.
As you had a whole strategy guide to playing Stronghold on Balance (very useful- thanks!) based on games with Cons/Hives banned, clearly there are some people who don't like the impact of the Hive zone on games. Recently, taking a 7 Hives zone for 44 Wyverns got me an easy win on Balance L against my roommate (replacing my Familiars with a 3000 HP stack really helps...).
However, as I didn't hit the hive area until early week 3, restarting at that point because of the number of hives wouldn't make a whole lot of sense- it took until something like week 3, day 3 before I even realized that there were 7 hives in a cluster. You can have a rule beforehand about no hives, but after playing 2 hours it would be strange to restart.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 08, 2008 10:29 AM |
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I just created some maps on Balance too. No major or relic artefacts seen. But in desert, I had 1 time 17 hives, and 2nd time 15, all next to each other. So I took a look at the rmg file and checked the treasure numbers. Density of hives (9500-9900) is 50 (!!!!). Not sure why it is that high, but I find this very uncommon. This should be reduced to 8-10.
The only reason for the major artefact I can think of is, it was a bugged map in a way 2 zones were "connected" into 1 by mistake, and the treasure values were just added.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted May 08, 2008 02:49 PM |
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I am not an expert for rmg-s so i cant explain why, but i have seen topes on Balance even without border guard. It happen 2 times. Once in my game and once i saw it in a game a friend show me. So obviuosly somehow it happens.
But since its not suppose to be at this template probably it must not be used. Even if there is tope - dont fight it, if there is relic artefact - dont get it. It should be part of the rules on balance.
Angelito - about the densiti of the hives. I dont know what doest it mean 50, but the avarage hives are 10-20. it will give you 50-150 wyvers. Sure, thats a lot, but as marreti said its not easy to get there.
And in most of the cases if you go to the t-zone your oponent gets your town. so you have only 7 days to walk in the t-zone. if you dont have pathfinding, if you dont have scouts - its a lot slower. and you need time to go back to your castle. so you have actually no more than 2-3 days in the t-zone, so its almost imposible to collect all the hives.
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 08, 2008 07:10 PM |
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Just generated a half a dozen more Balance L maps. One had an 11 cluster of Hives, one had a 12 cluster of Hives, and one didn't have a Hive cluster (only 3 in one spot) but had a Utopia- only guarded by a horde of nomads.
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 11, 2008 12:37 AM |
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Since I already have this thread about the Balance template, let me ask what hero people choose for their starting hero on Balance Large with various towns (difficulty 130%).
In particular, I played a game recently with Castle and deciding on a starting hero was giving me trouble.
Castle: I find Valeksa to be fairly mediocre, since she doesn't come with any Pikemen and I find she typically only has 9-10 archers. Giving the archers +1 Speed isn’t enough.
Orrin has nice skills early on and unlike Valeksa comes with Pikemen. Christian has a Ballista but you can buy one from the Blacksmith early in week 1 (side note: if/when do people playing Castle typically buy a Ballista on this template?).
Caitlin gives you some extra money, but she’s a magic hero and since you’re not going to have the money to hire a ton of heroes, you risk getting a bunch more crummy heroes and having no decent main week 2. Lord Hart is a Knight and gives you money, but I think it’s too little to pick him over a better knight. Tyris- since it’s very rare that I can build Angels on Balance week 1, I’m going to be clearing the map with Cavaliers/Champions week 2. Tactics and the extra speed for Cavs makes going after shooters easier. But her specialty won’t help the first few days.
Rampart: Ivor, Mephala, or Kyrre. Ivor gives you the quickest start. Mephala works very well with Unicorns. Kyrre works better with Elves due to archery. On size M I’d pick Ivor since the game is blazingly quick, but I'm not sure who to pick on size L.
Inferno: I like Pyre for the Ballista/Logistics. Anyone I’m missing but should consider? I find that I’m scrambling for gold with Inferno and don’t buy Imps at all so that I can buy Gogs and then Efreet later in the week. So Ignatius doesn’t seem like a good pick.
Dungeon: Shakti or Gunnar. Shakti has a great start and if you’re playing no Under, I might prioritize him since you start on Dirt rather than native ground, which makes early fights tougher.
Tower: I’d probably go with Neela. Anyone else I should consider?
Stronghold: Crag Hack. Probably don't need to consider anyone else.
Fortress: Tazar. Ditto.
Conflux- if for some reason it’s allowed, Grindan.
Necropolis- if for some reason it’s allowed, Gathran.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 11, 2008 10:01 AM |
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Don't worry about you starting hero when u play with towns which do not have great heroes at all. Just buy the one who helps the most (money, resource, additional army, etc...) and look for a non native hero in tavern.
For castle, Caitlin may be a good choice. The money will help, and u shouldn't go for a knight as main anyway.
Don't forget Monere if u consider Conflux...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 11, 2008 10:16 PM |
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Edited by Elric at 22:20, 11 May 2008.
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Thanks for the advice, Angelito. I just tried starting a few games as Castle and if you're hiring to get 5 heroes total week 1 (typical on Balance L for me), you'll usually get a good non-native might hero. I did have some games where at the start of week 2 after hiring a hero and looking at my tavern the best main I'd end up with was Christian. But more often than not a good Barbarian/Overlord/Beastmaster pops up.
Would you pick Caitlin as a starting hero for Castle on a poorer template like Balance? The gold is nice, but I find that if you're not going for Angels you won't build a Mage Guild week 1 and so having 2 Spellpower/2 Knowledge really doesn't help. By comparison, there are a number of knights who will help in fights.
Oh, one more question about hives on Balance. Maretti, you said that the Hive area is tough to reach because it's adjacent to the desert. The game against my roommate when I hit a hive zone with 7 hives, I didn't have to go through the treasure zone. Specifically, there was a pack of Enchanters guarding a gold mine/the entrance to the hive zone from one of my second areas. Was that just an improperly generated map?
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2008 11:28 AM |
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@Elric: Thats what we call a minebug, when the acces to a new area goes through a mine. In multiplayer games you are not allowed to pass through such an opening.
Caitlin is supposed to give you 350 gold pr day and thats it. She is not ment to be fighting anything.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted May 13, 2008 07:53 PM |
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@Elric
look into statistics of games on Balance template, it may be interesting to you - click here
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 15, 2008 08:11 PM |
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Quote:
@Elric
look into statistics of games on Balance template, it may be interesting to you - click [url=http://randommaps.siteburg.com/stat_all1.php?info=300]here[/url]
Thanks, very interesting. Is that starting heroes or mains? I'd assume that it's starting heroes, but the numbers don't all add up (e.g., Stronghold is listed for 52 games above, but Tyraxor/Hack/Gretchin combine for 54 games by themselves).
So on Balance people mainly choose Tyris as a starting hero as Castle and Ivor and Mephala for Rampart. I was wondering why Kyrre is so rarely chosen- is this because everyone thinks Mephala is superior on Balance L, or because Kyrre is often banned? Likewise, I see very little Gunnar even on templates like Jebus where you'd expect to see lots of him- is that because he's also typically banned?
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted May 16, 2008 07:53 AM |
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Is that starting heroes or mains? I'd assume that it's starting heroes, but the numbers don't all add up (e.g., Stronghold is listed for 52 games above, but Tyraxor/Hack/Gretchin combine for 54 games by themselves).
It should be main heroes - that have participated in final battle. However, i guess that maybe 10% people have indicated starting hero in reports (by mistake).
Quote:
So on Balance people mainly choose Tyris as a starting hero as Castle and Ivor and Mephala for Rampart. I was wondering why Kyrre is so rarely chosen- is this because everyone thinks Mephala is superior on Balance L, or because Kyrre is often banned? Likewise, I see very little Gunnar even on templates like Jebus where you'd expect to see lots of him- is that because he's also typically banned?
For SOD/Complete version Kyrre is banned in default rules as well as other Log spec heroes. In TE version - Kyrre is allowed, however not many people choose him as far as his bonus is fixed to 5% and Mephala's and Ivor's bonuses are even increased (25% HP bonus for elves after level7 and 20% armor on expert).
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2008 09:02 AM |
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In my opinion its a bad rule banning the log specs. They arnt superior heroes. Especially the bann of Dessa is a joke.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Elric
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2008 09:57 PM |
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Edited by Elric at 21:58, 17 May 2008.
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Quote:
It should be main heroes - that have participated in final battle. However, i guess that maybe 10% people have indicated starting hero in reports (by mistake).
People putting down their starting probably explains Caitlin getting in a few games there. Tyris being listed a lot probably means that a lot of Castle players start with her on Balance, but these stats won't really tell me if Castle players on Balance start with Caitlin much, for example. Do you have any particular sense of which heroes people are starting with?
Maretti- definitely agree about logistics specialists. I don't think Dessa is as strong as some of the allowed heroes (e.g., Hack). But since I'm playing my roommate, I don't have to worry about what other peoples' hero limitations are. I just wanted to get a sense of why Kyrre and Gunnar aren't used on Balance.
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