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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: to HOS or not to HOS....
Thread: to HOS or not to HOS.... This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 25, 2001 03:13 AM

Quote:


You witness a crime, but you don't report it to the authorities. How virtuous is this?



it's called forgiveness.  The cheating offense is upon JTL, and ONLY JTL <-- when and where he cheated.
JTL has the right to forgive the offender.

all those who desire only justice should be hanged.  Ever read "Les Miserables"?  if not, you probably wouldn't understand this posting.
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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jex
jex


Known Hero
posted November 25, 2001 04:18 AM

I disagree wiggy

Sure JTL has the right not to report it.

But this doesnt help the ToH community.

My uncle, tdwtdw, sent me a save of a game with xjust. I thought something was very wrong with it and I told him to send it into HC. He didnt want to waste his time on it.

What happens xjust continues to cheat other people. Yes, in this case the cheater got caught. But how many more people did he cheat after TdwTdw had already been cheated????

I see this as the same.

Quote:
The cheating offense is upon JTL, and ONLY JTL <-- when and where he cheated.


How does, Joe or the next guy who catches him, know this is the cheaters first and last offence???

By letting the cheater walk away, wont the cheater just think that now he can get away with it??? Or learn how to improve his cheating???

Where does it end???

Someone has to stop it, oblvious you dont mind beening cheated.

BUT I DO!!!!

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Jex
Jex


Known Hero
posted November 25, 2001 04:30 AM

an example

A friend of mine and an all round good guy, cheated once

He is young, he made a mistake. Chit happens.

The person that caught him reported him. I dont know what went on between HC and him. But I do know the outcome.

He had to apolgize publicly, and ask for the ToH Community's forgivenness.

JTL doesnt speak for all of us.

He doesnt have the right to give out my forgiveness.

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JTL
JTL


Hired Hero
King of Tossers
posted November 25, 2001 07:35 AM

JEX:
You are right.  I don't have the right to speak for all of you.  And yes, I see how that doesnt better the community by letting cheaters slide, much the same as passing the illiterate through the public schools.  So, I guess if I have concrete proof I shall submit it to HC.  BUT...please don't dilute what I was really trying to say by the post which is two-fold: 1) don't slander others in this forum or zone.  2) Remember it's just a game and is supposed to be fun.

THAT being said.  Let me ask a couple of questions to you and others:  

Question #1)  What constitutes proof of cheating (I realize the simple answer is...HC decides)...but let me give you a not-so hypothetical:  I'm playing random map...I have obs. tower so I can see a little bit of other players area.  I see in some turn he attacks 'lots of cerebri'...time passes "XXXX player has left the game".  Ok, so far...no problem, we re-load my auto and the guy doesn't fight the cerebri this time. I get slightly miffed, don't say anything...until the guy does it AGAIN about 4 turns later.

Well...obviously no proof of this (other than re-named autos) BUT when I question the guy on it..he basically admits to doing it...so I take a screen shot of this.  Is that enought evidence?

Question #2:  Whats the statute of limitations on sending something to HC?

PS: the sad thing is .. if someone tells me they blew it and fought something that kicked their butt and asks for 're-load' 90% of the time I say "sure no problem"
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 25, 2001 08:20 AM

Flamingo, I find it pretty scarey that you can come out saying that 95% of well known ToH players are cheats and that you have garnered this evidence from second hand sources at best and that over the years, your database has listed these people as proven cheaters.

Would the other 5% of ToH players by any chance happen to be close friends of yours? Just a question...

And you said that it is impossible to have 100% proof of anyone cheating, especially in your example, which you said could not be proven at all.

Erm... how can you be 99.9% sure then that 95% of ToH players are cheats? You seem awful sure of yourself when pointing the finger at other people, based on second hand and sketchy evidence, but you defend yourself pretty vehemently and say nothing can be proven when it comes to your own record.

In my opinion, you are either convinced someone is a cheat, or you're not. There are no 'grey cheaters' out there. The ToH rules are pretty well defined and your character alone should be enough to stand you in good stead. If you do not have the character to get around things like ISP drops, then maybe you need to rethink how you are playing people over the net.

I'm very shocked that Wiz has been considered a cheater. I've played him before and found him a very honourable and nice player who I would play any day.

I think that tourney coordinators need to liaise more on the issue of cheats. Get caught in one tourney, hey, move on to the next one. More than enough tourneys up and running now for people to be able to do round robins, lol. But transferring a ban from one particular tourney to a full blacklist on ALL net tourneys is a difficult thing to do. Different rules for different houses as they say. I would like to see blanket bans, because I sometimes play in more than one tourney and sometimes I get the impression that some people are in HOS, just playing under a different name in a different tourney. So I wonder why all these new people are slaughtering me when I've never heard of them before and they've got nothing good to say about ToH other than 'it sucks...'

Ever play ToH? I ask.

Nah. Never. Not me.

Hmmmm.....


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MatronBaenre

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WarWizard
WarWizard

Disgraceful

posted November 25, 2001 09:21 AM

Hmm...So let me get this stright, White_Wiz is being accused of cheating because of some funky editing. Is this the kind of editing were it on the tile behind the castle were noone will ever walk their hero unless they know something is there OR is it the typed were you give yourself 10 extra ArchAngels in your garrison, so they can aid you in your righteous cause?

The reason for this question is to get my facts straight and to throw an idea out there for the hungery mob, In my case the second type of editing is always done on my computer, so I have to check the map before every game. because my pathetic brother needs 20 extra archangels to defeat the computer with I have beat him many a times for this but he still edits my maps.

But it is the responsibality of the host to give the map a quick peck in map editor before starting game, expecially if you have younger siblings

Also one more thought, No wonder flamingo is so good, he has a team of KGB agents watching us and our every heroes move  
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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 25, 2001 11:26 AM

I think you're right Jex.  We should leave the justice / mercy in the hands of the Honor Council, rather than just the opponent.
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted November 25, 2001 11:58 AM
Edited By: Ichon on 25 Nov 2001

Language barrier

I have to agree on this- those people who don't write english very well have alot of trouble defending themselves. I think this is pretty prevalent in all the tournaments I have ever played in though.

It is unfair, but I can't see anyway to change it. Some games I have had vs Chinese players they got mad at something and quit, well, I couldn't even understand what they got mad at and they couldn't explain it to me(I think it was my turn length, but that is only a guess). I never had this situation in a ToH ranked games since almost all my games aren't in ToH anymore, but a few friends of mine from Korea who played in ToH occasionally season 2 and 3  finally had enough after the 3rd time someone did something wrong, but as a result of either knowing someone on ToH HC or else just submitting a well written e-mail to Vesuvius, they got off. It's a little bit prejudice, but really I can't blame Ves. Sometimes when both players admit there was a game, but disagree on outcome, you have to make a judgement call, and the guy who can't explain his side usually loses. I think if you are worried abut cheaters then you better make saves every turn and also always save on the first turn no matter what. Still alot of ways to cheat that won't catch, but at least you will have some sort of documentation.

Really, one of the funniest things is when someone cheats and they still lose. I found out after some of the games the guy who hosted the map had edited it, but since he lost anyways...

The one thing that might be impossible to catch for cheating is the trainers. So many of the veteran players speak knowledgeably about them it makes me wonder.

I don't think 95% of the ToH people cheat, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in a high minority. Maybe even 40% Especially people who spend all day playing, they have alot more honor or reputation to lose or whatever if they get on a big losing streak. Not saying all addicts cheat! But for them the temptation might be higher- also, not all cheaters cheat every game I believe. If you are very intelligent you know your odds increase the more times you cheat, so I think the worst cheaters and those still playing with High Honor only cheat a very few games, when they think they need an extra edge; maybe even against those played many games with them and trust them.

I'm paranoid anyway, but I wouldn't be surprised if _______ cheated. If he cheated in another tourny he probably has cheated here. But- you can't make him guilty just because of a rumour. Wait till he is caught here or there is some evidence that the HC can actually see(like saves etc) before banning him.
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andiangelsla...
andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted November 25, 2001 12:19 PM

it is no rumor - it is 100% prooven by saves

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madmartigan
madmartigan


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
posted November 25, 2001 01:14 PM
Edited By: madmartigan on 25 Nov 2001

re:

Quote:
Quote:


You witness a crime, but you don't report it to the authorities. How virtuous is this?

it's called forgiveness.  The cheating offense is upon JTL, and ONLY JTL <-- when and where he cheated.
JTL has the right to forgive the offender.





I think HC should decide if a cheater shall be forgiven or not. I agree that people has a right to forgive their opponents, but this must for fun games, not for ToH. Non-reporting the cheaters will only result in an increase in the number of "cheaters". In other words, "cheat" will be unofficially legalized.
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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted November 26, 2001 06:32 AM

a cheater is a cheater

I respect white_wiz, and have considered him honorable and a player who stands for honor.  But everyone has their weakness.  It shocks me that this situation has occurred with him of all people, and hope that this does not create added paranoia.

Obviously this issue is more not whether this player cheated or not, but about if he should be placed in HOS of TOH or ignored.  According to the database, wiz has not played a TOH game since 9/16/01.  

A decision will be made if he gets placed there or not very soon.  And of course, some of the community will be happy, some indifferent, some upset.  But that is life.
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jb239
jb239


Famous Hero
posted November 26, 2001 09:27 PM

well if u want my oppinion..

Since he been there so long, why not just give him a Skull thingy or something? all it says is play at own risk..so if u dont think he will do it again, then there should be no problem. if yer worried he will dont play him, simple as that.

of course this all assumin he wanna remain in TOH.

I wont name any names, but many people have had another chance or 2 or 3...

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Mad_Unicorn
Mad_Unicorn


Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
posted November 26, 2001 10:37 PM

awe ur no fun

name names jb if u ever come back to HC in the next year

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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 27, 2001 06:17 AM

Well on account of sending in ur fool proof evidence off cheaters to HC, there is no doubt in my mind, that it is ur duty.
I spent one full night playing xjust in Motor`s allied tournie, with Eliogabalus on my side. When we couldnt finish the game, we saved it.
Me and Elio set up a date to finish the game 3 times, and 3 times we where stood up.
I actually stringed Wuderior along for allmost a week, coz It is so hard to set up allied games (Luckily Wuderior was kewl about it). But to finally find out that xjust is just a plan ole cheater, and ppl have had hard evidence against him, from before I wasted 4 nights on the guy. Well, that really pisses me off.
I could have spent my time far more constructively than waiting around for a cheater. And worst part of it is, that we never did get the game finished

Defreni
So ppl, have some sense of respect for the other members of TOH, and spend that measly 10 min it takes to send a save to HC, and the 5 xtra min on replying on their mail, when they tell u that on accord of ur save mr X has been banned.

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destro23
destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted November 27, 2001 04:22 PM

Quote:
Maybe even 40% Especially people who spend all day playing, they have alot more honor or reputation to lose or whatever if they get on a big losing streak. Not saying all addicts cheat! But for them the temptation might be higher


This to me sounds ridiculous.. alot more honor and reputation to lose... hmmm so cheat.. nah.

if anything these players are probably less likely to cheat, not to say that all addicts are more honorable than the average 'game a month player' but at the very least those that are not terribly honorable would certainly fear being caught.  Especially after the examples made in the past...

I would not ever cheat that is for sure.. but I mean take someone like Xjust who is now in HOS.. he played frequently and now has been caught for cheating. Will he find a game with most veteran players?? probably not.. will he find a game with a newbie.. quite possibly..

So really if I am a "veteran" caught cheating I lose my ability to find a decent game in less than the normal 1-3 hour wait lol.  And all I have done is maybe earned myself an addittional 20-30 toh points... which just as easily could come my way by hunting recruits, footman for a week or so
(also: most vets know it is not too hard to catch a cheat.. and if not "catch" it is not hard to "know" with out proof.  And losing the ability to find a good game with a good player is far more important to most (I hope) than a handful of toh points!

As for Wiz.. hmmmmmm got me. I think JB has the best idea I seen here so far. because if it is an isolated one time occurence. then the fear he will hinder toh with more cheating is not present.

Anyway..... Books by Destro


-------------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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zsa
zsa


Famous Hero
posted November 28, 2001 04:15 AM

Cheaters !!

Yep Destro, u r right, if u want to make points and can't abtain yourself from cheating, go hunt some newbyes, you pathetic life forms .

I don't see the reason for cheating, why would you want something that you haven't earned,a victory that you obtained BY STEALING. And besides, it's only a game, it's suppose to be played for fun?

Pfiu had to get that off my soul .


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Qu_Purple
Qu_Purple


Hired Hero
posted November 29, 2001 03:18 AM

Personally I feel extremely annoyed when I think that someone has cheated and that includes those players who leave games when they realise that they are going to lose which is still cheating as far as Im concerned..

I have played wiz 10 games for tourneys and others for fun and have always found him to be an honourable player who is very helpful and always gives you choice of colour when he is hosting the game.

When he says that he let someone play on his pc and they edited the map and he didnt realise it....well I beleive him without any doubt.  I'm really disgusted that so many of you are so quick to crucify someone who has never been accused of cheating before, and has played so many games online.  Also that others have made comments without even hearing both sides of the story.  

Are there personal grudges involved here that are bringing out the vindictive side in some of you?

Well I hate the thought that you have probably ostracised someone who has been a great player of the game and one who does not descriminate against other players.  He was not a player that would say to you that you are not worth playing cos you dont have enough toh points.  Or think that he is too good to play against you.  He has also done a lot to make newbies and not so newbies feel welcome unlike other so called honourable players.

I just hope that i never have the misfortune to make a mistake similar to that of wiz.  Also I hope that my comments make some of you examine your consciences and maybe stop some of the persecutionist attitudes that have been evident recently, as it really destroys the fun of the game.  If you dont trust someone to play a fair game then dont play them.





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Life has ruined my Heroes addiction!!

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2001 06:17 AM

Well... members of the HC have proven it 100% So maybe its up to the members of HC to tell us what "100%" is? The problem is, to say my sister, daughter,mother,aunt, 2nd cousin is an easy cop out (even if it is true)...where do you draw the line? What if the next person came along and said "my little brother was playing around with the editor, and I accidentally played that map" Where does it end?
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Myctteakyshd

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Qu_Purple
Qu_Purple


Hired Hero
posted November 29, 2001 07:45 AM

Trust?

I think that when we played that myths map Rych I loaded an edited version which was ready for a kingdoms game by mistake and we both agreed to play on using the bonuses that were there....that was a mistake even though it was an evenly edited version of the map it could just as easily have been one like in the bastards titles that are weighted in favour of the title holder.

Well I think that it all comes down to trust in the end doesnt it....and what about having an impeccable record as well...do these things count for nothing??  And sure there is 100% proof that the map was edited....that is not in dispute....its a matter of mistakes and whether you beleive that the person made a mistake or not!!

If it was me instead of Wiz would you beleive me?






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Life has ruined my Heroes addiction!!

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2001 08:17 AM

Yes, you are right

It does come down to trust. i have played white wiz a couple oof times in allied games and didnt have a problem, but like I said, where do you draw the line? as for me, I have no opinions either way because I have no knowledge of the saves, what map it was etc. But let me put it to you this way...if the map was an edited map (for a bastards or myths game, or by accident) You say to me "snow this is the edited version", or "oops, this is the castle bastard version of hg3" Did he notice it was edited? and said nothing? or genuinely didnt know. Before we pass judgement, maybe some HC members can answer these questions for us, so we know whether we can trust him enough to play, or whether we steer clear.

   Dont get me wrong, it would be sad if the evidence was irrefutable, but if it is black and white, people need to know.

I guess this is why I player very limited players too, lack of trust on my behalf. The question "if it was you Qu" is a silly one, because u know the answer
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Myctteakyshd

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