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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Races vs. Themes
Thread: Races vs. Themes This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 27, 2008 03:58 PM

I prefer my own system, since everybody have diffrent opinions of creature line-ups I have mixed all together into one.

It goes like this:

Sylvan for example.

1. Pixie-Sprite or Scout-Stalker H4 & H3
2. Battledancer-Wardancer/Wind Dancer H5
3. Ranger-Mystical Ranger/SharpshooterH5
4. Druid-Elder Druid or Faun-Satyr H4 & H3
5. Griffin-Solar Griffin/Lunar Griffin H5
6. Treant-Treant Guardian or Unicorn-Silver Unicorn H4 & H3
7. Green Dragon-Earth Dragon-Emerald Dragon H2
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
of nastiness
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 27, 2008 07:05 PM

Quote:
About the question. I prefer themes (but not for all towns).

Why? Heroes of Might and Magic is not Warcraft! In Warcraft the player have races...


That is just wrong. Warcraft is based on themes or at the very least unions, not main races. And it doesn't matter how every calls those unions, especially since the official names are not Humans, Orcs etc., they are Alliance, Horde etc. For example, the so called "human race" contains a big number of elves and dwarves (especially dwarves), the "orcs" are actually orcs, trolls, ogres, tauren and others. So if you want a distinction from Warcraft (which by itself is somewhat silly, because a game is valued by how much better it is than other games, not how much different it is) you should vote for races.
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geny is a meanie - fred79

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 27, 2008 09:07 PM
Edited by xerox at 21:09, 27 Jul 2008.

His right. The races of Warcraft are not only based on one race, but a lot of races that has formed a big union/alliance.
Only Night Elves and Undead are based around one single race (but with many of "natures allies").

Warcraft 3 Alliance Races
High Elves, Dwarves, Humans

Warcraft 3 Horde Races
Jungle Trolls, Orcs, Tauren


____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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VokialBG
VokialBG

Hero of Order
First in line
posted July 27, 2008 09:34 PM

They are still pretty diffetent, aren't they? The Themen in H3 and the "themes" on WC (if you wan't to call them). It's true in WC3 they are themes, but the names are still race names (human, night elf, orc and etc...). I like the H3 universe.

..., however WoW and SC are more race based. I agree with Geny.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 27, 2008 09:54 PM

Quote:
I prefer something like the creatures system in H4, but with upgrades, and no alts. Nival can't balance the alts. One of them is always better in stats or abilities (or both), and most of the new/old alts are useless, players keep using one of them - the better one. With H4 building system you will need to think about your development strategy. Also this reupgading for alts, it should be removed imo.


Guess we're moving slightly off topic here, but I don't think this is true. While it is likely that one of the upgrades will have a more general application than the other, and hence will be more commonly chosen, I think there are plenty examples in the current game showing that the alternative option can work so that sometimes you prefer one, and other times the other.

I think the key to success in this aspect is making the units so that each upgrade has radically different application - the Squire vs. Vindicator is a good example of this. While personally I normally choose the Squire, I know a lot of players go for Vindicators, and this comes down to whether you use this unit offensively or deffensively.

I think the Heroes 4 model where you could not undo the choice - and here I'm not talking about re-upgrading the unit, but rather choosing to recruit one or the other - was bad because it often made conquering enemy towns useless, particularly when playing vs. AI (Ogre Mages - duh!). While it may be more realistic and even more challenging, it simply reduces fun and gameplay because you are prohibited from pursuing your own strategy through events you could not control. And yes, adaption is a challenge that requires skill, but more often than not, it was simply a matter of stupid frustration.
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What will happen now?

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 27, 2008 09:58 PM

Would there be a problem with Daystar's model if it were possible to demolish / rechoose the dwelling you've built?

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 28, 2008 01:52 AM

Quote:
however WoW are more race based.


WoW are a mmorgp ffs. Give me one multirace mmorgp that does not contain the choice of race? In WoW you chose your side: "Horde or Alliance". The fact you start somewhere different from each race, is because of the lore. And because all areas are mostly level spesific.
You pick Orc or B-elf, then you are part of the Horde and do Horde quests expect for the very spesific race and start quests.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 28, 2008 02:06 AM

He probably meant Warcraft.


Of course all RPGS and MMORPGS are race-based.

I mean would you like to play as a Turtle, or Giant Wolf wtf?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted July 28, 2008 02:18 AM

Why would you want to, there are only 7 dwellings...
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted July 28, 2008 02:16 PM

Daystar's model is quite simular to mine where I have 2 tiers per lineup where you have alternative upgrades, and currently considering to change the non-upgrade into a choice-upgrade ala Heroes 4

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted July 29, 2008 09:27 PM

But possibility to choose is best (tactic).

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blitzkrieg777
blitzkrieg777

Tavern Dweller
Mmmm! Love that monkey sweat!
posted August 12, 2008 02:33 PM
Edited by blitzkrieg777 at 14:35, 12 Aug 2008.

I think the question everyone needs to ask themselves is: If the units were different, would you play them more?  For example; since the Fortress faction seems to be the hot button, if that faction was drastically altered to be more thematically based on the previously recognized Norse theme (but all of the affects and abilities were the same) would you still avoid them?  So instead of the current units, the Fortress faction looked more like this:

Troll/Shield Troll
Valkyrie/Valkyrie Skirmisher
Fenrir/Garm
Sea Serpent/Kraken
Rune Priest/Rune Patriarch
Giant/Fire Giant
Fafnir/Nidhogg

There, only one is an actual dwarf.  But they do all of the same things.  Do you feel like you want to play them any more than before?  The problem with a purely thematic faction is that as far as the storyline of the race goes, a writer must suddenly come up with a background why all of these little critters are around.  So they decided to have a very dwarven clan in their fiery fortresses wrapped up with a theme of fire that many players feel is lackluster.  However other players feel that they resemble a real situation and are attracted to them.

To contrast this, let's look at a very thematic faction and flip it.  The most disjointed I would consider is the Academy.  So keeping all of the same abilities, here is a race focused Academy (I'm sorry in advance these are so rough):

Janissary/Janissary Cannoneer
Carpet Rider/Insulated Carpet Rider
Nomad/Armored Nomad
Mage/Archmage
Djinn/Djinn Sultan
Cavalry/Sipahis
Great Sultan/Thunder Sultan

Here is a faction based on the Ottoman Empire (sultans, etc.).  It is very human and many people will cry for their titans (myself included) others will say that they never liked those stupid gargoyles and gremlins anyways.  Why because we all look for something different.

What the game creators need to focus on is finding the happy medium.  It's okay to have a faction based on a race, and a faction based on a theme.  But honing the majority of the races into a combination of the two will help ease both tensions.  Maybe you don't need a gargoyle just to have a gargoyle.  It's okay to have a racial figure fill in a spot that seems out of place.  And it's okay to say, this is a magical world; perhaps dwarves should fight along side valkyries and powerful wolves instead of have all of the units look similar.

And if you are too desperate to wait for HOMM6, then maybe if you ask a modder real nice, they'll change those annoying thanes into something else for you.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 12, 2008 02:37 PM

Quote:
What the game creators need to focus on is finding the happy medium.
I completely agree, that's why I like the factions in H5 the best

As I once said:
Quote:
Haven, Necropolis and Inferno don't count, as nobody has problems with them.
Sylvan - 3 out of 7 perfect!
Dungeon - 4 out of 7 perfect!
Stronghold - 3 out of 7 perfect!
Fortress - 6 out of 7. I know, this is a purely race-based town, but it is in perfect contrast with Academy which is a theme-based town, since it has 1 out of 7 race-based creatures.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted August 12, 2008 03:09 PM

But Academy works as a theme-based town, but Fortress isn't really that well-designed.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 12, 2008 03:18 PM

Quote:
But Academy works as a theme-based town, but Fortress isn't really that well-designed.
What does "works" mean? First, for me Fortress is not an "utter-failure" and "disgusting" town, I can live with it. I don't have more "sympathy" towards Academy, which the Tier 1s, 2s and 6s are just completely wrong for me.
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 12, 2008 03:24 PM

Actually I disagree that Academy works, it's a mishmash of one theme too many.  We've got desert-based, mechanical, magical, vaguely air- and fire- based and sort of "construct"-style stuff going on, which doesn't mix in well and translate into an excellent town IMO.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 12, 2008 03:53 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:53, 12 Aug 2008.

Yes, not that we really needed this thread to come alive again () but now the harm is done, I have to join the chorus, Academy doesn't work particularly well for me. I don't mind the creatures in academy as such - I would just like a different lore for them, so that there was a common tie, rather than a total missmatch of origins (one is animated, another is mechanical, a third is sort-of elemental, yet another is a spirit, and the fifth one is even a little bit of all of this, as Cepheus pointed out).
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What will happen now?

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 12, 2008 04:00 PM

Quote:
Yes, not that we really needed this thread to come alive again () but now the harm is done
Don't shoot me, it wasn't me!
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 12, 2008 04:06 PM

Did I say anything about you?
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What will happen now?

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted August 12, 2008 05:04 PM

All of you are making the same point, so I'll respond to all of you at once.

Academy works because it is more than the sum of its parts. It is a perfect representation of the Wizards - changed Goblins, animated constructs, mages themselves, summoned things, and Collossi. None of these elements could really work independently. I mean, we already have Stronghold, we don't need a town full of slightly different Stronghold creatures. We only need one Gremlin. As for the constructs, I wasn't aware that Forge became a popular idea all of a sudden. I'd like to see a Forge town, but until we do, constructs need to stay with the mages. The mages - no one wants to see a town with creatures like "Demi-Mage" or "Giant Mutated Mage". The Genies work well with the desert theme. Rakshasas are an interesting new creature, and represent the mages' magic side, as opposed to their animating construct side. And a town full of Collossi just wouldn't work.
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Eccentric Opinion

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