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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Races vs. Themes
Thread: Races vs. Themes This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
of nastiness
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 18, 2009 09:40 AM

That is possible, but very "dangerous", because its tough creating 12 unique, balanced, interesting factions. Imo it could only happen over a course of several installments, just like Heroes grew from 4 factions in HoMM 1 to 9 in HoMM 3.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 18, 2009 10:36 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:43, 18 Nov 2009.

From H2 to H3 we got3 extra towns and an extra tier of creatures, and that extra tier to my mind would stuff things up almost as badly as the towns. As for the number of factions, I'm personally working on 14:
Haven (halflings & golems)
Spire (elves)
Empire (humans)
Sanctuary (centaurs)
Fortress (dwarves)
Academy (wizards & genies)
Tomb (undead)
Stronghold (orcs)
Cult (demons)
Deep (troglodytes)
Temple (naga)
Rampart (lizardmen)
Estate (vampires)
Lair (gnolls)
Some of these may be dropped at later stages, but I doubt many will.

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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted November 21, 2009 06:56 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 19:01, 21 Nov 2009.

Quote:


I'd love 50 factions too, it just is impossible to do. The developer would have to animate all of the creatures/heroes/ and biggest off all the towns themselves. Also from a gameplay perspective, it would be extremely difficult to keep the game balanced with all of the different creature combinations.


I guess. Maybe I went too far with 50, but as for balance, that's not really that hard. Just play around with the weekly growth and you can do next to everything, while maintaining balance

In games like the warcraft series you don't have such a powerful balancing tool, but with the Heroes system a developer has much more discretion.
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Alkari
Alkari

Tavern Dweller
posted December 31, 2009 09:59 PM
Edited by Alkari at 22:17, 31 Dec 2009.

Theme based

This was always the HoMM tradition, it was always a theme war game, and not a race based game, something that was the concept for other games, that's why Heroes is so special.

The only race based town should be the humans, they were always the normal guys fighting in a weird fairy land, i don't think it was a good idea to place the Angel or the griffin in the human town.

For each faction there should be a terrain related.

I would not like 50 factions...too many to remember any good creature, and most likely all their creatures would be a version of another one...high elf calvary?...drow calvary....dwarf calvary....etc, etc, etc..

You can read, this, factions ideas is more or less what i'm thinking for the concept, of course is just my opinion
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Lord_Alamar
Lord_Alamar


Hired Hero
posted January 09, 2010 01:12 AM

Theme/culturally based. The race-based idea was one of the things that ruined heroes V for me. The implementation of the dark elves ruined the warlock town, (and is the reason why I play haven instead of Dungeon in Heroes V) those nival defiled an ancient tradition from Heroes I with what I call "sexual preferences" rather than "themes", with goth-elves in shiny leather who has nothing to do with the warlock town! And the fortress was a big failure if you ask me, 6 out of 7 creatures looked like each other, five of them where walkers and terribly hard to differentiate from each other.

They are messing up with ancient HoMM traditions, traditions that makes the game unique and not another warcraft-copy with humans, elves and dwarves.
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archwarl0ck
archwarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted January 11, 2010 04:16 PM

Quote:
those nival defiled an ancient tradition from Heroes I with what I call "sexual preferences" rather than "themes"

Sir, you've made my day.

As for me, I think that the race element is a nice addition, but it should not be overwhelming. I'm thinking into a 30% race and 70% theme mix, that would be fine. And 2-3 creatures of the titular race.
The race explotation leads to a lame concept of an elf\orc\dwarf with a sword\bow or on a horse. They can draw it extremely cool, but if the concept itself is lame, so will be the unit. I like the way Blade Dancers are made, but after all they're just elves with swords, and that makes them look dull.

I thought about having a harpy\dark elf hybrid instead of the blood witches, a medusa\dark elf instead of those shadow what-so-ever's, a dark elf\spider instead of those lizard guys. That's creative, that's not a silly Warhammer copy (a smart copy at least ) and that could be easily explaind by lore that dark elves are small in numbers so they bring the gifts to their goddess to power them up.

Nothing is impossible for a mind which is not trying to copy.
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Lord_Alamar
Lord_Alamar


Hired Hero
posted January 11, 2010 09:24 PM

Quote:
As for me, I think that the race element is a nice addition, but it should not be overwhelming. I'm thinking into a 30% race and 70% theme mix, that would be fine. And 2-3 creatures of the titular race.
The race explotation leads to a lame concept of an elf\orc\dwarf with a sword\bow or on a horse. They can draw it extremely cool, but if the concept itself is lame, so will be the unit. I like the way Blade Dancers are made, but after all they're just elves with swords, and that makes them look dull.

I thought about having a harpy\dark elf hybrid instead of the blood witches, a medusa\dark elf instead of those shadow what-so-ever's, a dark elf\spider instead of those lizard guys. That's creative, that's not a silly Warhammer copy (a smart copy at least ) and that could be easily explaind by lore that dark elves are small in numbers so they bring the gifts to their goddess to power them up.

Nothing is impossible for a mind which is not trying to copy.

Why should we have to accept nay of the dark elves in our town? Race-based factions have never been part of Heroes before nival took over the game and copied everything from DnD and Warhammer. I think that the best solution would be if ubisoft fired nival and scrapped the whole story and selected a new company to develop Heroes VI. This company should show some respect for the history of Heroes and try to create something unique and different. Preferably they make a game which continues the story from Heroes IV, hopefully with the events of LotA added into cannon.

Quote:
Sir, you've made my day.
It's okay for me that they like whatever in private, and I don't really care if they have sadist emo elves in game, but please not in MY favourite town! (one the most ancient and glorious and honourable cultures of the might and magic series, don't you agree dear arch-warlock friend?)

I mean.. if sadists/masochists get their own town how long will it take until gay people want their own...oh wait I forgot about Sylvan. Anyway.. my point was that we need a new company that shows some respect to the fans of the series.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
of nastiness
HC SUPPORTER
posted January 11, 2010 09:51 PM

Quote:
This company should show some respect for the history of Heroes and try to create something unique and different. Preferably they make a game which continues the story from Heroes IV

Something doesn't smell right...
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geny is a meanie - fred79

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archwarl0ck
archwarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted January 11, 2010 10:50 PM

Quote:
Why should we have to accept nay of the dark elves in our town?

Probably because those dark elves can be warlocks in the current setting?
But leaving them mostly heroes, not mostly units, would suit me better - that's what I wanna say.

Quote:
I think that the best solution would be if ubisoft fired nival

And they already did. Or Nival closed first.
But they won't abandon the new world they have created. And we all will have to deal with it.
After Fallout 3 and the public's responce I felt good that didn't bring back the old world - would have been worse if they screwed up the old universe (and I'm sure they would). And it's also not quite right not to include a half of the world (it's sci-fi aspect), but the community will be as frustrated, as it was with the release of the Forge town in AB.
Thinking it over, the new world is a good idea, but it's realisation fails. Also, it's again Nival's fault that the Ashan in HMM V looks so stupid. I like the intentions of making the world more mature, but it looks better on paper, not in a game.
Of course that matureness doesn't mean the race feature is a must have, but what I'm trying to tell is that it would made more sence when properely used. And I mean giving not a stupid set of creatures, but some sort of a theme and a new approach on the race, a cool and a logical one.

Quote:
and I don't really care if they have sadist emo elves in game

Well I cannot but agree with this one, they're sadist emo elves alright. There's still the spirit of mass destruction (ah!) in the air around Dungeon, but now with a flavour of cruelty.
I tend to think it's again not the elves, but the way they are depicted. It would be much better to change their overall style into something unique, not a copy. This and the racial units decrease to two or three, with more monstrocity in the army.

What brings me slight hope is that Ubi may have actually listened to some of the complains, as there are no blade dancers or any other elven units in CoH. Maybe it is possible to find a compromise having both race and a theme, with theme dominant, as an ongoing tradition.

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Lord_Alamar
Lord_Alamar


Hired Hero
posted January 12, 2010 12:33 AM

Quote:
Quote:
This company should show some respect for the history of Heroes and try to create something unique and different. Preferably they make a game which continues the story from Heroes IV

Something doesn't smell right...

I think making an original game continuing the story from Heroes IV would be quite original. At least it's not what people would expect.

And I couldn't stand another Heroes III remake! Making one game in 3 different versions isn't to smart.. that only makes people bored and quit the game.

Quote:
Probably because those dark elves can be warlocks in the current setting?
But leaving them mostly heroes, not mostly units, would suit me better - that's what I wanna say.
Dark elves can be whatever they like, as long as they stay our of the Warlock faction.

The Warlock's Guild has never been racist, we have let troglodytes and minotaurs in, in the past. Some dark elves could be welcome, but not the entire race. There is no actual reason for dark elven heroes calling themselves "warlocks".

Quote:

And they already did. Or Nival closed first.
Thank God for that!

Quote:
After Fallout 3 and the public's responce I felt good that didn't bring back the old world - would have been worse if they screwed up the old universe (and I'm sure they would). And it's also not quite right not to include a half of the world (it's sci-fi aspect), but the community will be as frustrated, as it was with the release of the Forge town in AB.
Now excuse me, what has a dystopian game set in the real world to do with Heroes of Might and Magic? The sci-fi elements could be dropped entirely if the creators wanted it, but it isn't really as impoular as people think it is. It was always present in Might and Magic, and it worked fine.

But one thing I can agree on: the religions of Ashan makes a lot more sense than the religions of NWC:s universe. That's a good part of Heroes V that I liked.

Quote:
Well I cannot but agree with this one, they're sadist emo elves alright. There's still the spirit of mass destruction (ah!) in the air around Dungeon, but now with a flavour of cruelty.
The spirit of mass destruction is something that you unleash upon your enemy as a warlock, it's not something floating around in the society. (especially not combined with decadence and sexual "alternatives") Nighon was a strict and orderly Lawful Evil kingdom, dragons and minotaurs are both lawful beings. In contrast to the sadist emo elves who are chaotic and hardly evil any longer with Raelag as their leader. (that's why I'm thankful for saint Isabel and the renegades, so that you could finally play lawful and evil and feel good about it)

Quote:
I tend to think it's again not the elves, but the way they are depicted. It would be much better to change their overall style into something unique, not a copy. This and the racial units decrease to two or three, with more monstrocity in the army.
While I agree that that would be better than it is now, I would still prefer throwing the elves out entirely. Warlock town isn't warlock town when it's dominated by elves.

Quote:
What brings me slight hope is that Ubi may have actually listened to some of the complains, as there are no blade dancers or any other elven units in CoH. Maybe it is possible to find a compromise having both race and a theme, with theme dominant, as an ongoing tradition.
Now i feel stupid, what is CoH?
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Chaos/Life player, old school Warlock. Heroes IV is the favourite.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 12, 2010 01:42 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:50, 12 Jan 2010.

Quote:
Now i feel stupid, what is CoH?
CoH stands for Clash of Heroes, a DS version of HoMM or  something like that.

Also, for those who say race-based towns are a bad idea, does that mean you want to dump Haven?

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Lord_Alamar
Lord_Alamar


Hired Hero
posted January 12, 2010 07:38 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Now i feel stupid, what is CoH?
CoH stands for Clash of Heroes, a DS version of HoMM or  something like that.

Also, for those who say race-based towns are a bad idea, does that mean you want to dump Haven?
Looked it up, sounds kind of crazy, though the reviews were good.

Well, no, but Haven should also be theme-based rather than race-based, meaning that it should be a town for Light-worshippers rather than humans. (ie. it can include griffins, angels and perhaps a new creature) That means that we could add other human-dominated towns such as pirates or religious fanatics.
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Chaos/Life player, old school Warlock. Heroes IV is the favourite.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 12, 2010 11:29 AM

Quote:
Well, no, but Haven should also be theme-based rather than race-based, meaning that it should be a town for Light-worshippers rather than humans. (ie. it can include griffins, angels and perhaps a new creature)
Hey, it's still 5/7 race, so yes, it still counts as a race-based town. Also, the way you describe 'Theme Based', all towns, regardless of whether the majority of their creatures are soldiers or beasts, can be counted as Theme-based.

Quote:
That means that we could add other human-dominated towns such as pirates or religious fanatics.
Please no, two towns per race is enough.

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archwarl0ck
archwarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted January 12, 2010 01:03 PM

Quote:
Now excuse me, what has a dystopian game set in the real world to do with Heroes of Might and Magic?

Nothing to do with HMM, but it's a good example of what can become of and old world taken by new developers.

Quote:
Nighon was a strict and orderly Lawful Evil kingdom, dragons and minotaurs are both lawful beings. In contrast to the sadist emo elves who are chaotic and hardly evil any longer with Raelag as their leader.

All of this is matter of setting. If you don't like it - you'll find a million reasons why you don't, but we all can't change it. At least we all agree that some sort of theme is necessary.

Also, adding to the above - by elven units in CoH I meant not classical units, but sort of stupid ones - we could have a stag rider instead af a simple stag, or a elven swordsman instead of the bear.
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yesugey
yesugey

Tavern Dweller
posted October 23, 2014 02:21 PM

The best is to have a little from both. I prefer a settlement that under domination of a race, but includes some different themes. Like Castle which has mostly human troops, yet includes Griffins and Angels.

I experienced from other strategy games that its fun to have some different alignments in your army, "but" it must come from a scenario. For example, I play Shogun Total War with Mongolians, I have "Korean Spearmen" or "Chinese Bombardsmen", because they were under Mongolian rule at that time.

And I love to see some bloodmix heroes, or traitors that changed side and joined the enemy! Remember the Lord Haart became Death Knight.. Or Sandro as Necromancer. I love Human leaders in Rampart or Fortress as well.

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Pkdragon
Pkdragon

Tavern Dweller
posted November 08, 2014 07:32 PM

Oh man, old topic is old but interesting. And it seems that generally this forum in general is made of a lot of old topics so I won't feel too bad about posting here.

I actually don't mind the race based towns (and Heroes V Fortress I actually thought was remarkably good, and I say that as someone who adores the old Heroes III fortress), HOWEVER I do prefer the theme based towns. It just so happens that race based towns often have strong themes as well!

There was a lot of arguing about societies back in the day and how the "random mixes" of units can't have societies or something like that. This is actually the reason I posted, because one of the fascinating things about Heroes III towns to me is considering HOW these varied creatures are working together. With, say, Rampart it's pretty easy, Rampart is clearly an alliance between three major forest based races (Centaur, Dwarves, and Elves) who share a common philosophy. With Dungeon and Fortress it's a little harder but that's what makes them interesting.

First, I think the phrase "town" is misleading because it seems clear to me that not all of the bases are towns in a traditional sense. Many are closer to Warcamps (Dungeon, Stronghold), and others are Enclaves of like minded individuals and their sorcerous minions (Tower, Necropolis). This is important because while the Dungeon is called a "town", it seems clear to me that the society of Dungeon is actually based on a single leader who cowers the other creatures through fear (as other people have pointed out, Lawful Evil. I would call it fascism, however.) It is still a society, but it is not a democratic society, it is a fascist society. This is a good thing, because it adds some texture to the game.

Fortress is equally interesting, however, because the Fortress actually ARE a "town" in the usual sense (which is why the name "Fortress" never felt right, I don't know what I'd call them, "Boondocks" doesn't quite fly off the tongue) but they are a town dominated by nonhumans- lizardmen and gnolls. However, unlike most monsterous towns, I got the impression that Fortress is just a bunch of guys trying to survive in a dangerous world. This is reflected in the general defensive focus of the town, and the single campaign (which I'll admit I haven't played all the way through yet) is focused on surviving a necromantic invasion. And unlike other towns, there isn't much of a strong leadership presence in the fortress, and it shows in their unit strength . Fortress has an underdog appeal, and I can't help but feel a bit sorry for them- they're the everyman in a world full of terrifying armies marching this way and that.

SO tl;dr I think that the "themed" towns actually have very interesting societies and make the player think a bit more about how they function. That's something that "race" towns don't really have, because we know they function because they're a single race.


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Greenlore
Greenlore


Known Hero
posted December 25, 2014 11:20 PM

Overall I'd be heavily for theme based towns.

One of the things that got me into HoMM was how the towns had lots of different mythological creatures in their line-ups,which made some factions in H5 rather disappointing.

I'd say it is ok if every faction had 2 units based on their race(these 2 should have very different jobs though,like archer and druid for elves and warriors and shamans for orcs)

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Darkem
Darkem


Known Hero
posted December 28, 2014 12:59 PM

Themes, themes, themes...
It's a more flexible and inspiring choice. Theme-oriented towns don't have strict limitation as these from "Ubi-era". Story telling is easier and lineups can vary more.

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Darkem
Darkem


Known Hero
posted December 28, 2014 02:18 PM

Themes, themes, themes...
It's a more flexible and inspiring choice. Theme-oriented towns don't have strict limitation as these from "Ubi-era". Story telling is easier and lineups can vary more.

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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted February 17, 2015 01:23 PM

Both, one option does not eliminate the other... in fact, well made faction should not only have certain theme but it should be supported  by its ccreatures

Sylvan, Fortress and haven are prime examples of that.

And i do not understand what is behind the idea of "holy"- Haven is pretty similar to castle from HoMM 3- holy gives only way too much light, everything is way too shiny ;

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