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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Races vs. Themes
Thread: Races vs. Themes This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 02, 2008 01:09 AM

I, subjectively, feel they are an odd, unoriginal and convulted idea.  Subjectively.  My feelings do not define the world's opinion
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A5ado
A5ado

Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
posted July 02, 2008 02:24 AM

About the Science fiction vs. Fantasy:  
They are very very different.  Science fiction explains everthing with science and advanced technology.  All creatures are aliens, or humans, or something like that.  Fantasy explains things with magic and mythology.  The places in fantasy do not exist, although they resemble earth, the creatures do not exist.  There is no science fiction story that has both science AND magic, please prove me wrong with an example if you can.

About the races making sense:
  You say that the castles have to be able to live in a society?? But wait a minute, how could dragons work?  They couldn't build buildings, maybe they could be plumbers, or electritians? I don't think so.  For that matter all of the centaurs I know, and I am friends with several, do not like the forest.  And manticores are solitary creatures, they don't like to live in towns. Also, I happen to know that druids greatly dislike treants.  Treants are also picky about cleanliness - they won't get along with any creature that is sloppy and doesn't clean up.  And your liking of dwarf castles is completely outrageous!   Spearwielders would never eat in the same restaurant as mountain gaurds! I know from personal experience(you do not want to be in the middle of a dwarf on dwarf bar fight).  
 If your really concerned with them living in societies then you have to answer me where are all the women??? They can't even reproduce!  That really bugs me.  I mean its so unrealistic!  They need to quit making these ragtag castles of creatures that wouldn't even live together, or function in society, and start thinking.  Most of the creatures aren't smart enough to graduate high school, so how could they live in an advanced society???  The whole thing doesn't make sense.
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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 02, 2008 05:58 AM

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL WOOOW

I have wanted some one to say something just like that, I just couldn't think of what to say.  This is a fantasy game, it doesn't need to make that much since.  The story should be built around the well thought out, themed castles.  Castles should not be made dull and boring just because it has to agree with some story.

Besides,  There are no great games that are made from a movie.  Great games are made into a movie.

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e-lysander
e-lysander


Known Hero
Lysander
posted July 02, 2008 06:06 AM

I don't think there is any question here. Themes were done in Heroes I to Heroes IV. Heroes V introduced the race-based factions, which seems to be copying Warcraft. :/

In addition, benefits like variety are very good for marketing interest.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 02, 2008 07:18 AM

Quote:
About the races making sense:
  You say that the castles have to be able to live in a society?? But wait a minute, how could dragons work?  They couldn't build buildings, maybe they could be plumbers, or electritians? I don't think so.  For that matter all of the centaurs I know, and I am friends with several, do not like the forest.  And manticores are solitary creatures, they don't like to live in towns. Also, I happen to know that druids greatly dislike treants.  Treants are also picky about cleanliness - they won't get along with any creature that is sloppy and doesn't clean up.  And your liking of dwarf castles is completely outrageous!   Spearwielders would never eat in the same restaurant as mountain gaurds! I know from personal experience(you do not want to be in the middle of a dwarf on dwarf bar fight).  
 If your really concerned with them living in societies then you have to answer me where are all the women??? They can't even reproduce!  That really bugs me.  I mean its so unrealistic!  They need to quit making these ragtag castles of creatures that wouldn't even live together, or function in society, and start thinking.  Most of the creatures aren't smart enough to graduate high school, so how could they live in an advanced society???  The whole thing doesn't make sense.


He he nice post, but don't drag the (associated) beasts into this. Elves can form a community and associate / ally with the Dragons for army means. That doesn't mean the Dragons are members of the community as such. In fact, this is not much different than Humans using horses for their cavalry - that does not make the horse member of society per se. Ok, there IS a difference, but I hope you get my drift. Same with other beasts. And what exactly would motivate the Dragons or Manticores ... well, that's where fantasy plays in. Maybe some creatures are enslaved. Other's maybe act for religious reasons (the Dragons). Some may be allied for sentient reasons (Unicorns) or simply tamed for convenience (Griffins). I still think my point, and Death's also, from previously holds up.

And yes, this IS fantasy. In the end, we can get away with pretty much everything we want, it's just a matter of acceptence. Never the less, some things go down easier than others.

And as for the women - well, I ask the same, when I real Tolkien. In this game, however, we deal with armies, and I don't suppose women participate in combat muchly in this world.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 02, 2008 12:54 PM
Edited by xerox at 12:55, 02 Jul 2008.

Race-based towns dont become boring when there are only 2-3 creatures of the main race. However i think humanoid creatures in the towns should also be heroes, not only the main race ( like Elves and Wizards).

I missed Genie heroes in Academy.
And i also though it was very strange that there were almost no women in the towns. I was very suprised when there were no women in the Sylvan town.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted July 02, 2008 01:58 PM

There...are.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted July 02, 2008 02:15 PM

Quote:
As always alcibiades, you hit the nail on the head.  You make a lot of excellent  points.  And I guess game-play isn't the word I was looking for, it's more of a "fun factor?", I'm not sure.  I was never good at vocabulary.  Sure the game-play of heroes 5 is great, like I said I thought it was the best TBS game out there, but heroes 3 is almost more fun to play because of the diverse creatures, and probably will be more fun after the new castles on WOG.
I disagree, H5 is much more fun

Quote:
Yea the game-play would be exactly the same if all of the units were boxes, and the Units were called Unit A - Unit Z.  But would people have nearly as much fun? NO.
You're right, because the game is supposed to be realistic, not an arcade game, thus a good story and realistic or 'reasonable' armies & such are the "fun factor", not a random soup of creatures.

Quote:
That is how I view the dwarf castle.  Dwarf A upgrades to Dwarf B.  Is that really what people want?  Do you people have an imagination?
Don't use your "imagination" too much -- it may lead to Santa Claus in a random town

Quote:
And on the whole childish thing? So what?  I play Halo and I also play Mario Kart.  Do you not play Mario because you can't stand the idea of cartoon plumber jumping into pipes and killing flying turtles by jumping on them?  So what? It was a bizarre, creative idea that obviously did pretty well.
Let me explain this to you one more time. Mario is an arcade type of game. You can't compare Heroes (which is supposedly fantasy) with an arcade type of game. Arcade games are Tetris, PacMan, Mario, etc..

Heroes is not like that, don't you even start comparing them. Just because you play Mario and is fun does not mean that others have to be the same, especially when they are supposed to be a different genre.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 02, 2008 02:24 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Sure the game-play of heroes 5 is great, like I said I thought it was the best TBS game out there, but heroes 3 is almost more fun to play because of the diverse creatures, and probably will be more fun after the new castles on WOG.
I disagree, H5 is much more fun

I disagree also, but perhaps for a slightly different reason: You say the creatures in Heroes 3 are more diverse, but that's actually not true, rather on the contrary, in Heroes 3, creatures were pretty indiverse: Not a lot of creatures had unique abilities or unique ability combinations. In Heroes 5, all creatures have a unique combination of skills, and many of them have creature-specific skills, which makes the units much more diverse.
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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 02, 2008 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Yea the game-play would be exactly the same if all of the units were boxes, and the Units were called Unit A - Unit Z.  But would people have nearly as much fun? NO.
You're right, because the game is supposed to be realistic, not an arcade game, thus a good story and realistic or 'reasonable' armies & such are the "fun factor", not a random soup of creatures.

Umm... I don't think this game is supposed to be a realistic game. If You understood A5ado's post, he was making fun of that.

Ok, lets say this game became "Heroes of geometry wars".  There were the squares and the triangles  and the hexagons..ect.  And the only difference between the levels were that they were different colors.  So if you saw a purple square guarding a ore pit you would have to remember that that is a upgraded level 5 square. Would you play that game?  What if it had an unbelievable story line that blew your mind away?

Quote:
That is how I view the dwarf castle.  Dwarf A upgrades to Dwarf B.  Is that really what people want?  Do you people have an imagination?
Don't use your "imagination" too much -- it may lead to Santa Claus in a random town

Quote:
And on the whole childish thing? So what?  I play Halo and I also play Mario Kart.  Do you not play Mario because you can't stand the idea of cartoon plumber jumping into pipes and killing flying turtles by jumping on them?  So what? It was a bizarre, creative idea that obviously did pretty well.
Let me explain this to you one more time. Mario is an arcade type of game. You can't compare Heroes (which is supposedly fantasy) with an arcade type of game. Arcade games are Tetris, PacMan, Mario, etc..

Heroes is not like that, don't you even start comparing them. Just because you play Mario and is fun does not mean that others have to be the same, especially when they are supposed to be a different genre.


I disagree.  Every games sole purpose is for the player to have fun.  Whether it be pong, tetris, mario kart, Heroes or WoW.  It doesn't matter the genre.

Anyway, It looks like im loosing this poll, surprisingly.  I guess the majority of people play this game for the campaign.  I see the campaign as a series of single player scenarios with a distinct objective, and a crappy voice over storyline.  I don't what to say.  There are thousands of games out there a million times better to play than the heroes campaigns.  Just leave Heroes to multi player.  The game was obviously originally designed for that.  Infact, I don't even think that Heroes 1 had a campaign.  Although, I could be mistaken since I lent it to a friend years ago who just told me the cd broke recently.

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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 02, 2008 06:42 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure the game-play of heroes 5 is great, like I said I thought it was the best TBS game out there, but heroes 3 is almost more fun to play because of the diverse creatures, and probably will be more fun after the new castles on WOG.
I disagree, H5 is much more fun

I disagree also, but perhaps for a slightly different reason: You say the creatures in Heroes 3 are more diverse, but that's actually not true, rather on the contrary, in Heroes 3, creatures were pretty indiverse: Not a lot of creatures had unique abilities or unique ability combinations. In Heroes 5, all creatures have a unique combination of skills, and many of them have creature-specific skills, which makes the units much more diverse.


Thats not what I meant.  Those are the things that make heroes 5 slightly better than heroes 3.  All of the different special abilities, the racial abilites and the battle sequence.  When I said that the creatures in heroes 3 were more diverse I simply mean that there were different types of creatures not multiples of creatures in the same castles, like in Heroes 5.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted July 02, 2008 06:57 PM

Quote:
I disagree.  Every games sole purpose is for the player to have fun.  Whether it be pong, tetris, mario kart, Heroes or WoW.  It doesn't matter the genre.
I don't think you get my point. I'm saying that Mario is an arcade game, don't mix it with Heroes. Heroes needs to have story since it's a fantasy game.

Or how about Horror games? They are on the opposite of arcade -- but they're still fun in their way, not everyone has the same tastes. Heroes is a fantasy game -- story is part of it. Don't compare it with Mario, they are different genres. It's like comparing a Horror game with Mario.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted July 02, 2008 07:32 PM

Quote:
Anyway, It looks like im loosing this poll, surprisingly.  I guess the majority of people play this game for the campaign.  I see the campaign as a series of single player scenarios with a distinct objective, and a crappy voice over storyline.  I don't what to say.  There are thousands of games out there a million times better to play than the heroes campaigns.  Just leave Heroes to multi player.  The game was obviously originally designed for that.  Infact, I don't even think that Heroes 1 had a campaign.  Although, I could be mistaken since I lent it to a friend years ago who just told me the cd broke recently.
But only YOU think that diverse creatures are more "fun" for multiplayer. For me, race-based factions are much more fun to play.
You see? At least my option (race-based) satisfies BOTH those that play multiplayer (some of them - those that like race-based towns) and those that play campaigns. You, on the other hand, satisfy only those that play multiplayer and that like theme-based towns.

Quote:
When I said that the creatures in heroes 3 were more diverse I simply mean that there were different types of creatures not multiples of creatures in the same castles, like in Heroes 5.
So? That doesn't change the gameplay AT ALL. It doesn't matter how creatures look (for the gameplay), it only matters what special abilities they have and their stats.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 02, 2008 08:15 PM

Quote:
You see? At least my option (race-based) satisfies BOTH those that play multiplayer (some of them - those that like race-based towns) and those that play campaigns. You, on the other hand, satisfy only those that play multiplayer and that like theme-based towns.
You're assuming that having mixed towns makes campaigns worse somehow. Then tell my why the H3 campaigns are better than the H5 ones.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted July 02, 2008 08:32 PM

Quote:
Quote:
You see? At least my option (race-based) satisfies BOTH those that play multiplayer (some of them - those that like race-based towns) and those that play campaigns. You, on the other hand, satisfy only those that play multiplayer and that like theme-based towns.
You're assuming that having mixed towns makes campaigns worse somehow. Then tell my why the H3 campaigns are better than the H5 ones.
Well, I was talking to zazu who said:
Quote:
I guess the majority of people play this game for the campaign.
when he saw the poll results
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 02, 2008 08:50 PM

In H3 people had alot of different units with different stats, in H5 about all units for a special ability. What is boring in H5 is the not difference in design from unit to unit, about every unit is uber special(this IS a ruining factor too), and you MUST have a hero of the faction you are using otherwise it is useless(try a knigth on necropolis or a necromancer on academy, 90% chance for epic fail).

For the story, a good story builds better pillars for the game, and as it goes it can in fact actually improve the game a bit.
For the gameplay, the most importent factor. If a game got snowty grapics, and you force yourself to sit down for a while and play. The gameplay is ridiculessy good and you become addicted only because of the gameplay. Having a decent multiplayer helps, but it can also fail.
Look at H4, if you force yourself down for a while you become addicted. It is that simple.

Design: One of the factors, a little importent but can be partly ignored. Eyecandy is not importent, but the pure design. Is someting looks completely lousy, you will not be that likely to sit down and play it. However if it looks good you will be more likely to sit down and play. I have seen games for PS2 with ridiculessy great grapics, then we start playing............ it was the ultimate 3D version of one of the classic 8-bit games, and i was very dissapointed because i wanted someting more.
And for design on the top of that:
*Poly level
*Skin Level
A model with low poly and a GREAT skin is 10x better than high poly and low skin level. Simply because having 9999999 poly's does not make a model great, and it will require a more powerfull PC to run too. However if the model is poorly made and got to few poly's and look like a square, it is not that great either. Reasonable poly level is like 100-500, for a normal model.
And lets say you play a FPS or a adventure game, then another factor plays in: Shadow system. A game with a great shadow system does look very sexy, look at cel-shading O.o


So lets go to the next game that will be made: Heroes of Migth and Magic 6.
The more you get without an expension, the better. I do not like overdone poly games, they tend to be unorgianl and not smexy.
Ok, then lets look what failed in H5:
*Overdone cretures
*To few factions
*A more powerfull modding tool than H4 had
*Not so great grapics(for the time)
*Alot of bugs
*Bad story
*Balance(being worked on)
*The AI

However it does got its great sides, and that it deserves a kudos for.

So what do people want in H6?
Easy:
*A very powerfull modding tool, must include a model convertor(look at warcraft 3, it is a succes and is still played today because of the modding capabilties)
*Very few bugs(people want to be able to sit down and play with the 1.00 version, preffered to be able to online with 1.0 too)
*Extremely good balance
*Good storyline
*Alot more factions
*More variation(all possible ways)
*Great gameplay
*Great design
*A great AI

I would say 12 factions is not enogh, maybe 13 uniqe factions based on possible mythologies and design is enogh. For adding on more on a expansion i would say yes!!!!! But orginali i would never consider having the thought of an expension there when the game is out.
When i want to play it: I want to be able to droll over the design, not the poly level!
When i sit down and play: I want to be amazed and gasp over the plot twist in the storyline, as unpredictable as possible and yet follow the laws of logic.
I want to be able to be hooked after 10-20min of gameplay, i want to sit there and starve for an opponent online because the game is amazing.
I want to find more than 1 faction that i find very interristing.
And in the end, i want the balance to reflect upon the level of the gameplay. Having the worlds best gameplay but worst balance is a ruining factor no?
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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 03, 2008 01:30 AM
Edited by zazu1 at 01:34, 03 Jul 2008.

First of all TheDeath, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore.  I still disagree with about everything you say. Maybe that's just my opinion, what ever.  We obviously play games for completely different reasons.  Honestly before I joined these forums I didn't even know that many people really played the campaign.  When I played WoW, not alot of people actually new the story.  Once in the while you would be talking to the 35 year old virgin in your guild and he would tell people the storyline.  And he only knew the storyline because he has a bit too much free time on his hands and read it all in wowwikki.com.  I'll admit the story of warcraft is really cool and interesting.  I think there even making it into a movie, or at least they should.   But I played the game before the I knew the story.  I guess this game just appeals to completely different people.  My new objective is get you people to understand my side.  Because If I see Heroes 6, and it's has 8 castles with 8 creatures theres no way im buying it.  I don't care if its the most in depth, balanced, most amazing graphics game in the world.  It has no appeal.

Quote:

Quote:
When I said that the creatures in heroes 3 were more diverse I simply mean that there were different types of creatures not multiples of creatures in the same castles, like in Heroes 5.
So? That doesn't change the gameplay AT ALL. It doesn't matter how creatures look (for the gameplay), it only matters what special abilities they ,have and their stats.


I have already corrected my self earlier about this.  I understand that the game's game play.  I've explained this all before with my example of "Heroes of geometry wars".  Call it eye candy, or what ever you want but it is very important, just as important as everything else.


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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 03, 2008 01:52 AM
Edited by xerox at 01:53, 03 Jul 2008.

Yes Warcraft is becomming a movie!
But we have not heard news about it in one year... so it looks dark.

Go to Legendarypictures.com and look at "Under Development"
( Sorry if this was off-topic)
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 03, 2008 05:35 PM

Thanks xerox, you are right it is underdevelopment! I can't wait! Says its supposed to come out next year.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 03, 2008 06:27 PM

Now, I like the fact than in H4 and H5, every creature is different and has different special abilities. That needs to stay.
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