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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Arcane archers overpowered
Thread: Arcane archers overpowered [ This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9) 10 11 12 13 14 15 ]
Vexon
Vexon


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2008 01:27 PM

That's not fair, Elvin. Perhaps they voted for MHs because their potential exceeds that of the Alcoholics Anony- Arcane Archers. I mean, if you manage to get the Archer's Dream, the AAs hold no ground on MHs whatsoever.

Of course, I'm not saying that's the right way to examine the case, but let's face the fact that some people have strategies that fit MHs better than AAs. Personally I try to keep equal stacks of both; AAs to take out ranged units and push back / cut short large stacks I don't want near me, while the MHs focus on the front line infantry (Raiders, Cavaliers, Bloods, etc.).

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 23, 2008 02:13 PM

Of course there are but my point is that master hunters are now a specialized case that only pays off few times and under special circumstances. That does not equal the master hunters being better when they almost always are not. Unfortunately they are simply not balanced with each other and if you want to be practical you'll usually rely on the arcanes.
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We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted August 23, 2008 05:56 PM

HM is the Arcane Archers realy overpowered, well Yes and they should be because the Elves are Masters Of Bow and their Bow using units should be the best of all shooting(from bow crossbow)units.
I like Master Hunters Mainly for their Double shoot it look so greate
But i agree with Elvin that AA is much stronger then MH and it's look like the upgrades are not balanced.

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razor5
razor5


Famous Hero
Freezing...
posted August 24, 2008 03:35 AM
Edited by razor5 at 03:36, 24 Aug 2008.

Here's the comparation:

       Arcane Archer   Master Hunter        Score:

Atk:         6                5               1-0        
Def:         5                4               2-0
Dmg:        8-9              5-8              3-0
Inn:         11               10              4-0
Spd:         5                5               5-1
Hlt:         14               14              6-2
Sht:         16               16              7-3

Abilit:    Shooter          Shooter           8-4
        Force Arrow       Double-Shot        9-5
        No Range Pen.   Warding Arrows      10-6

Look,Arcane Archers are Overpowered  

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 24, 2008 04:35 AM

A score for each stat? That makes no sense.
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We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

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Vexon
Vexon


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2008 05:02 AM

I'd like to point out, Razor, that MHs damage output is actually 10-16, as opposed to the stated 5-8, counting the Double Shot. So the potential damage of the MHs is actually higher than the AAs, but harder to achieve with the lack of AAs Full Range. But I think that's the ability that is causing the problem in the first place.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted August 24, 2008 06:58 AM

Quote:
So the potential damage of the MHs is actually higher than the AAs, but harder to achieve with the lack of AAs Full Range.
No it's not, because the Arcane Archer ignores 50% of the target's defense.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 24, 2008 07:05 AM

Let's not run in circles, Doomforge had even pinpointed the defense value after which arcane archers ALWAYS deal better damage.
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We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 24, 2008 07:07 AM

Not to mention the +1 Initiative (which most people ignore)
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted August 24, 2008 07:08 AM

Yes sadly this really isn't even a contest.  Though there are a few times Master Hunters are better it is a moot point.  A few (select) cases vs every other situation.  The AA's outshine them 95% percent of the time.  That's like buying a car because it has a better bumper, when the other car has better everything else
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 24, 2008 07:09 AM

Ignore? That with no ranged penalty alone are reason enough to pick them without a second thought
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We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

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Zenithale
Zenithale


Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
posted August 24, 2008 10:19 AM

Quote:

       Arcane Archer   Master Hunter        Score:

Sht:         16               16              7-3


AA can shoot 16 times and MH only 8 (because double-shoot).
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Elemental Paradise

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 24, 2008 12:10 PM

LOL a hunter never survives for even 8 turns
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We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

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Zenithale
Zenithale


Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
posted August 24, 2008 12:26 PM

Rarely, but you can (aid of Teleportation / resurrection / magic immunity / raise dead / deflect arrow / ...).
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Elemental Paradise

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Adon
Adon


Known Hero
posted August 24, 2008 05:26 PM

The only time I lament not having MH over AA is when I face ghosts and their upgrades.  The double shot usually means a pretty good chance of killing them.  Incorporeal is my LEAST favourite skill of any creature!!

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grantsin11
grantsin11

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2008 08:11 PM

I agree with the Incoporeal for the Ghosts. Sometimes it feels like their incoporeal 100% of the time instead of 50%. I also agree Elvin's point on the no range penalty. I would pick them 9 times out of 10 (depending on what faction I was playing against)
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 29, 2008 09:45 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 31 Aug 2008.
Edited by Doomforge at 09:46, 29 Aug 2008.

If anyone still has doubts, here's more math for Geeks.

Let's assume we have arcane archers, master hunters with unicorn horn bow and ordinary master hunters, castle population, with basic stats.. shooting against enemies with increasing defense, from 1 to 50. How will it look like?



As you can see, arcane archers will deal better damage as master hunters, range penalty or not, when the creature's defense is above 27. That's not that big, even a low level knight, barbarian or ranger can have 10+ defense, effectively making even tier 4-5 creatures have that much DEF.

Now let's assume that our hunters have more than the basic attack. Say, you play Ossir and you've found some nice ATT arties, setting your Master Hunters at 24 ATT and Arcane Archers at 25 ATT. The situation will change.



In such situation, arcane archers will score better damage than master hunters with no penalty when enemy creature's defense exceeds 22.

So, the higher the attack of our hero is, the better AAs become compared to master hunters.

Conclusion: taking into consideration that AAs have better initiative, defense and don't need unicorn horn bow to offer higher damage against low DEF foes (against higher DEF foes it doesn't matter anyway), all I can say is: Master Hunters are rubbish.

Thanks for your time.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted August 29, 2008 10:00 AM

Thank you for your detailed approach Doomforge

I was going to do something similar with Maxima but hopefully this explains it visually better.

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Adon
Adon


Known Hero
posted August 29, 2008 11:45 AM

Excellent graph Doomforge, thanks for that.

I still like master hunters when fighting ghosts, I find them so annoying early on...grr, but usually by the time I have upgraded hunters cabins my army can take out any neutral ghosts without losses anyway.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 29, 2008 01:52 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 13:52, 29 Aug 2008.

glad you like it

Perhaps I could also cover the "2 shots mean better use of luck and avenger" myth.. But I can't find my statgraphic to make a professional approach, lol

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