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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Haven in principles and advices
Thread: Haven in principles and advices
TheKhan
TheKhan

Tavern Dweller
posted July 23, 2008 09:15 PM
Edited by TheKhan at 21:19, 23 Jul 2008.

Haven in principles and advices

Haven is one of my favourite factions, I’m fan of all might factions. Many will consider it as boring – being human in your real life is enough . This in haven in principles!

About Haven.

Haven is might faction. Some players will leave the spell skills, but here comes principle number 1:

1. Haven is might faction, but magic is always needed.

As Haven player you still need magic, don’t care about your low spell power, most of the light and dark spells aren’t affected by it. You’ll still have mana to keep your units stronger with light magic, or the enemy weaker with dark magic. Light magic is great for might factions – it will grand you even more power, if it's combinated with Dark magic, against the right enemy it's even more dangerous. If we use the letters in the English alphabet as example:

B is where your enemy is in the battles beginning, C is you. Lets C is equal to B in power, D stronger than B and C, A weaker than B and C, with light magic boots you are going to D, with dark magic on your enemy you are sending him to A. But here comes principle number 2:

2. Magic won’t win the day.

Even if your magic is strong you are might hero you need more might skills, magic is there only to help. As might hero you rely on your army/war machines/hero. Especially on your army. That’s why you have light and dark magic – to increase your survival rating and melee/ranged non-magical power, but not to win with it, if you win it will be thanks to your army (not in all cases, but still).

Your attack, defense, initiative and morale are high, your knowledge average or low, your spell power – low. Your army is strong – very hard to kill in late battles (even if you leave the defense skill), but also expensive. Your special ability allows you to train even more troops for your army.

Town development:

Haven is expensive, you can’t built everything on every map, first you need the archers tower and upgrade as faster as possible, then go for blacksmith and barracks, footmen are needed as better meat shield against neutrals (upgrade may wait) it's good if you build town hall, griffins and citadel till the end of week 1. You will need more and more gold, you need capitol fast, and later (but not much later!) castle for more troops. Try to get monastery, stables, jousting arena, and later upgrade griffins. Its good if you can upgrade griffins faster if you will need to attack strong caster or shooter neutrals. After you build angels (they can wait also...) start to upgrade your creatures, paladins and priests have advance here, but it mostly depend on your gold and resources (after week 1). In all cases your town development is slow (except on very rich maps.)

You just need to remember principle number 3:

3. Archers, Griffins and footmen are best friends

This count for all early battles, Crossbowmen are great against everything and Griffins will reach ranged neutrals faster than your footmans, especially with Irina as main hero. Footmans are used as shield for your ranged unit.

Choose upgrades:

Conscript/Brute

I never upgrade them anyway… both have decent abilities, and weak stats. Assault is nice ability, but not when the Brute use it - its always weak. Conscript is more defensive (but still weak). They won’t stay longer if you attack, but here comes the priority of the conscript, he can use his bash ability to stay longer on the battefield. That’s the only different here. If I need one of them I’ll pick the conscript.

Marksman/Crossbowman

Both excellent shooters, in stats they are pretty equal, but you’ll have the chance to use No Range Penalty more often (on every shoot), than Precise Shot – will work only in early battles, when the enemy will reach your meat shield (numberless tactics with this ability , even so, crossbowmen will deal more dmg for the time, especially with the knights morale. Crossbowman here.

Squire/Vindicator

Again – both are very strong and useful creatures. Both have good stats (strong for level 3), the first difference is that the vindicator has 2 more attack and -1 defense, they still have the Large Shield ability, this makes them nearly hard as the squires, they also has the powerful clave ability, vindicators are able to fight monsters without high losses. The Squire has Shield Allies and Bash, nice defensive abilities, but the vindicator can survive without them, they are very strong attackers, they don’t fear shooters and they clave. Very useful creature for offensive faction – like Haven. You can still keep few squires for the Shield Allies ability.

Imperial Griffin/Battle Griffin

Large difference here. In stats and abilities. Battle Griffin is defensive and slower, Imperial Griffin is offensive and faster. I see the most important difference in the dive ability. Rush Dive can be used once, it hit for 75% dmg (and battle griffin has lower dmg than the imperial), and you need at least 5 creatures in your stack. Also the battle griffin has only 10 initiative, this makes them slow and before the dive most of the enemy creatures will move on another tile. With the Imperial, your dive dmg is doubled, you can keep the stack in the air in hard battles, also they are much faster (15 initiative). Great against slow armies and if we add the knights speed in battles Imperial Griffin are great choose. Battle Frenzy is nice add to defensive creature but it still can’t do much more than the powerful Battle Dive, combinated with imperial’s initiative and knight defense, you simply don’t need hard defensive creature like the battle griffin, since your imperials will stay in the skies during the battle. Imperial Griffin is much better.

Inquisitor/Zealot

Very hard to choose. The main difference is in the spell book. Take the Zealot if you fight dark casters, they will give you + 1 cleaning, in combination with paladins and your hero they are great. Righteous might on expert level (+12 Attack) is also nice (Seraph has this spell on advanced). The Zealot will deal slightly more dmg, if you use it as shooter. The Purge ability is good agains light casters, where they are using numberless blessings, If you have the zealot in your army and you fight light caster attack the high level creatures to remove their blessings. On other hand the inquisitor has more spells (-2 mana isn’t important, their spells are cheaper) but on advanced level. Both units are great. My advice here is to pick the Zealot in combats agains casters like necromancers, runemages (to boots your attack and to purge enemies light magic). And the inquisitor against melee fighters, where you can cast endurance on your friendly creatures they will least longer, endurance is better against might armies (defense can’t save you against magic), also the Inquisitor himself has better defense – will least longer against melee hits. You may like to take one of them for spells only (if you have haste and endurance/divine strength on mass level you don’t need the Inquisitor). You may also like to have them both if your magic is weak.

Paladin/Champion

Depends on your enemy. They have equal attack, hp, initiative and speed. The champion hit hardåð with his greater damage and his Champion Charge ability (he can hit the stack behind the target with 50% dmg). The paladin is immune to Frenzy and also has the Lay Hands ability, great in battles against dark casters, Lay Hands not only clean the harmful effects but it also heal the target (1 creature) The choose is simple, take champion if you fight might enemies (like Stronghold) where they can’t cast frenzy on you champions or other powerful dark spells on your friendly stacks. But paladin in case you fight dark casters with puppet master, frenzy, etc… Absolutely obligatory if the game is against Necropolis.

Archangel/Seraph

Hard again. The Archangel is better in defense and min dmg. The Seraph in attack and max dmg. Seraph is much better damager if you can cast Divine Strength (expert level) on him. With the right light spells he will become machine for killing. Also he has the Divine Vengeance spell – useful against powerful low level stacks in high numbers (like Sylvan’s archers). Righteous might is nice, but it doesn’t worth to waste turn and mana, better use zealots or your hero to cast it. Archangels will deal less dmg, but it has the useful Resurrect Allies ability. As knight your mana and spell power aren’t impressive (and Resurrection cost 15 mana). 1 free resurrection is nice bonus, especially for haven, where this is the best way to bring death creatures back to life. For me it depends on numbers if you have few of them take seraphs, the resurrection is weak when they are few, but if you have 10+ take the archangels, I consider them better than the seraphs in important battles.

Skills:

Here is what I’ll like to pick first and I consider as best, anyway building Haven isn’t easy as building Stronghold, as haven player you have much nice and useful combinations in your skill trees.

Absolutely obligatory are (and I see principle 4 here – Morale is one of main weapons):

Leadership: Recruitment, Divine Guidance, Empathy

I’ll try to get Divine Guidance a fast as I can, casting it on your crossbowmen makes them to hit again, later you can use it on paladins/champions or other strong unit, your morale is high, take Empathy with it you can cast Divine Guidance (or spells) more often. Leadership – Empathy will not only grand you more hits for your units but also better chance for luck, good morale and stronger hits (retribution). Empathy makes you even faster when you can use Divine Guidance/Light spells/Dark spells more often. 15% chance for leadership.

Attack: Battle Frenzy, Retribution

Battle Frenzy adds + 1 max and min dmg, works nice with crossbows, but also help to all your creatures, with the speed of your leadership + it's perks and light magic this mean decent additional  amount of dmg. Retribution is simply great with combination with your speed, Leadership and Attack skill (this is at least + 15% dmg with retribution and 3 morale and you will have more, with 15% attack skill and potential luck – x2 it's equal to +60% melee dmg.) For last skill go for Archery or Power of speed. Power of speed only if you don’t mind to spend points in Master of Wrath, Archery is always useful, especially with Dougal. Take Archery, Flaming arrows for Vittorio. Tactics is useful in late games against casters where you’ll have 2 large stacks of paladins, 1 large – griffin and 1 more large – angel.

Luck:

The combination is almost completed with Luck, Luck is always useful for all factions. 260% dmg hit with all mentioned to this moment is quietly nice Dead man’s curse is always in help but in this case I’ll skip it, you need Soldiers Luck (required by Dead man’s curse) – not every useful for your army. If you insist to pick something, better try Resourcefulness, Spoils of War, as haven player you need resources and gold for your expensive buildings and creatures this will help a bit with rare resources (basically with everything you need). Magic Resistance may help against casters.

Magic schools:

I decided to make this in separate section. As Haven player you always need magic school, at least 1. One of all four magic schools is useless for you – Summoning (Fog Veil and Elemental Balance still can be used, but I don’t consider them as good for you). Probably the best one is Light, but all 3 have their use.

Light Magic:

Always good to have. It boots your creatures in all stats (except hp) – Haste, Endurance, Deflect Missile, Divine Strength, Righteous Might,  also the nice Resurrection is there – may save important stacks. Cleansing on 100% (expert) is a must against casters. As might hero Light is probably the best choose – grads you more dmg, more defense (survival), anti-magic, resurrection. If you already have Power of Speed (Attack tree) you may like to skip Master of Wrath. (if you like to pick 2 magic schools, better leave power of speed you will know why soon). It's best if you take the Master’s according to you spells in the magic guild. From the next abilities Suppress Light sucks, Refined mana is nice to have for your priests (and seraph – Divine Vengeance will cost 7 mana only, but you still need to lose a turn for RM). Eternal Light is useful against dark casters but it’s still a gambling – 50% chance. Storm Wind is nice ability it will grand you better chance to act – more speed. But most of the strong flyers still have enough speed and initiative. Guardian Angel can save you, if you are on high level (the formula for the GA is 240+30*Your level) and the enemy is almost destroyed it will bring you back in the game.

Dark Magic:

Dark magic isn’t so great with your low mana, however you still may like to have dark and light in your spell book (or why not only dark?). Dark is powerful. Not like it is with Necromancer but still powerful. Fallen Knight is needed if you wish to cast spells with better effectiveness, the – morale penalty it’s much, but +5 spell power for all dark spells is helpful. As dark caster you need spell power for Decay, Frenzy, Blindness, Vampirism, Puppet Master and Curse of the Netherworld. Since you cast light spells with your creatures, dark isn’t that bad. Vampirism is nice with your strong offensive melee creatures (they are all with good hp and defense - not the peasant-). You can blind enemy ranged units or fast flyers. Or weak them with you spells. However will you have enough time to cast all this? And the – 1 morale penalty is still – 5% dmg (retribution). Dark is good option, especially against other might faction (sometimes Stronghold won’t expect it ). Dark Knights are rare but still useful. Its nice idea to pick Shrug Darkness (it's better than Eternal Light, you are 100% sure in it's effectiveness). Still light is slightly better choose for magic school but you can try them both

Destructive Magic:

Why not? No, I’m not crazy or tired ! Here is the another reason according to which you need to pass Power of Speed Destructive Magic offers you more 20% dmg for you melee strikers! Take Master of Fire and Master of Ice, they lead to Fiery Wrath (+10% elemental dmg) and Cold Steel (+10% elemental dmg). This is a risk but it works nice You still can try to use the spells but they are weak with your spell power.

You may skip logistics and defense, however defense can’t help you against magic factions (only protection) but also against magic is better if you get more offense. Why? Magic factions are using tank tactics (not all) they have more defensive units, you need to down them fast. What you need to beat defense is offense, not defense again. Maybe that's only me, but I prefer to be fast and to hit hard. Logistics makes you faster but not stronger in battles, Death marsh is nice but you don’t really need it, your griffins don’t need more speed to hit the enemy ranged units with battle dive, and the only other flyers are the angels. Logistics can be used to surprise the enemy, when your Schumacher like hero reach his castle before the enemy owner

Others: If your hero is Vittorio you will start this War Machines: Ballista, most important is Attack: Archery, Flaming Arrows and War Machines: Ballista, Triple Ballista with this you will have 3 shots + 50 extra fire dmg, targets defense is 0 for your ballista, it's hp is doubled, and it's restored after battle (if it was destroyed).

Enlightenment grands you more mana, but it's very rare (2%) ability for Haven, and in my option its better if you pick another one. Arcane Intuition is nice ability also…

Heroes:

Dougal – great hero for creeping, with his specialty, starting skills and later with training, where you can add 20 crossbows more every week. With this hero you can weaken the enemy (neutral) walkers (or even kill them) before they can reach you. Not much to say here, your tactic is hit after hit after hit…

Ellaine – weak but useful hero. Peasants and Conscripts sucks, you don't even need them for their poor fighting skills, you can use the free slot for additional stack of paladins or squires. But here comes the big BUT. If you catch Ellaine in the tavern hire her immediately and keep her in your main town. She start with Recruitment (Increases weekly growth of 1st, 2nd and 3rd level creatures by +3, +2 and +1 respectively. Hero must be stationed within the friendly town on the last day of the week for effect to take place.) – sucks for your main hero but perfect for her, if you keep her in the town all the time. Also peasants will grand you +2 gold per day and since you don’t need them in your army on later stage keep them in the town with Ellaine. If you level up 2 more levels you can get Advanced Leadership: Estates – more gold for your empire.

Irina – Griffins are important for your army, very important, it's nice to give them additional attack and defense bonus, they will stay longer on the battlefield and deal more dmg. Also Griffins are great against ranged units and casters. Irina grands battle dive to the ordinary griffs too. Luck (her starting skill) is useful skill for every faction, Magic Resistance isn’t the most useful perk in all situations but still good one.

Klaus – paladins and champions are great, Klaus improve them nicely, however you need to have them in order use his specialty, this makes him weak in creeping, but in later battles he is great against slow enemies and with his Divine Guidance. Starting skills are nice, Retaliation Strike won’t help you much.

Laszlo – I don’t like defense much (I prefer Attack), but you may like it, Vitality is nice skill for Footmen, Squires and Vindicators, they are large in numbers. I’m not using him often but I have to say that he is nice hero with hordes of Vindicators, and good build. Still not good enough for me.

Maeve – she starts with Leadership, Attack and Haste spell, all useful for your army, with expert Light Magic: Master of Wrath she is even better +40% Initiative (Haste on expert level) and +1% for every level, plus - your creatures already are high on initiative, this means that 40% for Haven is more then 40% for Necropolis or Fortress. As I like to act with more speed, Maeve is good hero choose.

Rutger – aka the Heroes 5 Schumacher , nice starting skills, average specialty, not good for creeping. His specialty can’t help you in combats. Vessel of Shalassa may help on map with islands. 'Nuff said...

Vittorio – nice choose for creeping, especially when you fight casters or ranged neutral enemies. Also has nice bonus in sieges (his catapult bonus). One of the best heroes for creeping, where neutral creatures can’t destroy your ballista

Few creeping lessons:

Haven have true power, but sometimes the beginning is hard (it depends on the map). In the beginning your spells are expensive for you (according to your low knowledge), also they are not so effective, only Maeve start with spell (Rutger start with Vessel of Shalassa but it's adventure spell). Your starting army contain archers and peasants (1 griff with Irina and footmen with Laszlo, Klaus doesn’t start with a paladin ) The best creepers are Vittorio and Dougal, as haven creeper you rely on your ranged attack a lot that’s why you need to build and upgrade your archers fast, at first use several stacks peasants to surround your archer (later crossbowmen), concentrate on one of the enemy stack, until you take it down, or until it's weak enough for you to don’t care about it. Later you need to add footmen as better meat shield before your ranged unit. When you upgrade your ranged better take the crossbowman, its more useful if you weak the enemy target when its still far away. Important skill for you is Divine Guidance and later Empathy, keep casting it on your ranged. Attack is also useful here. As Vittorio it’s even easier, with your Ballista and ranged creature, however all heroes can do the work, but Vittorio and Dougal are faster, and you can start easier with ranged neutral combats.

Good luck everybody
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 23, 2008 11:12 PM

For starters I'd say that a light/dark combination is a waste of skills, you simply do not have the mana or time to cast spells from both. I suppose you can get them in a few maps but otherwise nada.

Also I can't see why anyone would build footmen week 1 rather than griffins, priests and city hall. My argument is two-fold:
For one you cannot spare the wood/ore if you want to get higher tier units such as cavaliers/angels early.
Secondly you you will not have enough days to build capitol, castle and tier 6, maybe also tier 7 during week 2. That has the priority imo, a few footmen early will not save you.

In a map with higher than lvl 3 starting town and blacksmith built is another case.

Also since money is limited it's usually better to just train priests into cavaliers than upgrade them into zealots or inquisitors. Yes they can help but more paladins are a better investment where I am concerned. Only case I can think off is when a player trains all footmen into priests, now that can be scary but I'd still prefer cavaliers

Paladins also have a lovely defense bonus so they could work well vs sylvan. Better survivability can serve better than higher damage output at times.

From personal experience(and not only) Spoils of War should never EVER be picked. This is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen in a game, has virtually no impact on your game as it's too weak. And since you mentioned resourcefulness I would consider it a strictly secondary skill, a main's job is not picking up piles.

Magic schools: It's the other way around, it's destructive that will never come in handy. Yes a lucky early artifact can help but a knight's job is far from castings spells, haven is not a 'hero' faction. Summoning on the other hand has many uses if you find the correct spells. Arcane armour, phantom forces, arcane crystal and blade barrier come to mind. Destructive could decrease enemy defense but meh.


Light Magic:

Suppress Light can save your hide against another knight considering said mana shortage. Likewise it can shorten the usefulness of enemy priests and seraphs

Destructive Magic:

+20% damage is nice and all but why waste an attack ability and 6 levels in destructive? Not worth it, so many better options. For instance logistics that is most essential in maps like rat race.

Enlightenment is an absolute must if you can get it.

Pretty much agreed on the rest
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 24, 2008 01:20 PM

Quote:
From personal experience(and not only) Spoils of War should never EVER be picked. This is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen in a game, has virtually no impact on your game as it's too weak. And since you mentioned resourcefulness I would consider it a strictly secondary skill, a main's job is not picking up piles.


I have to second this. It's a bit sad, really, because in certain combinations (like: With Snatch) these could be really interesting skills, if they offered a level-dependant bonus, but as they are, it's simply waste. You'll get 1, maybe 2, precious resources and at best a couple of hundred gold pieces from a major fight. Meh.
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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted July 24, 2008 02:34 PM
Edited by phoenixreborn at 15:37, 24 Jul 2008.

Quote:

This is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen in a game


 Where's the laughing smiley?

edit: oh there's one... :lol: quick somebody put a smiley with that.

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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 24, 2008 06:10 PM

yep, haven has one tough army...

their units complement each other really well... almost to the point where you feel like you are fighting not one army, but several of them all at once.

you have the archer/squire team, the paladin team, the archangel team, and the griffin team. oh yeah, almost forgot about the peasants and inquisitors lol

anyway, i have been working on allied faction combinations, and i just want to point out that for an effective destructive knight(say sylvan-haven combo), you should go for the armageddon/divine vengeace knight. (this strongly assumes you can get these spells, which unfortunately in this game is very dicey)

aim for master of fire, and fire resistance(light magic). your low powered armageddon will not do much damage to your army, which since it has fire resistance, will also not suffer the -50% defence penalty, whereas the enemy will. (this is the whole point of using the armageddon) here's where swift mind from logistics helps

as elvin mentioned before though, you are now taking up two slots because of this(light and destructive) to make this worthwhile, you should abuse divine vengeance, if it isn't banned in your game. Get your large group of conscripts, cast divine guidance + teleport assault on them to suicide ASAP.

as for griffins, battle griffins can be quite useful for the following reasons:

they are strong and durable direct combat creatures - if you use irina, they will be uber strong. remember that the counterstrike ability of the knight combines with the ever increasing counterattack of battle griffins. throw in your knight's retaliation strike(maybe unstoppable charge and weakening strike even, if you have them) combined with the griffin's unlimited retaliation, and few enemies would want to fight them directly(not that they have a choice though).

concerning paladins and champions, you can actually have both in the same army by leaving the peasants on the farm. old school haven users used to split their paladin stacks into 2, one large, one small. you can have one small paladin stack and one large champion stack.

if you have the right spells in dark, you might not need light(ofc depends on which faction you are facing) frenzy, blind, mass confusion, puppet, vampirism: the list of awesome spells in this book is quite long. dont't have high level cleansing or magic immunity as a counter? let vampirism get rid of that annoying mind control spell your enemy cast on you.

conclusion: despite lack of interesting monsters in faction, haven is a real buttkicking faction

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 28, 2008 11:27 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 23:30, 28 Jul 2008.

Haven versus Inferno (?) (WARNING: if this post is crappy, then I didn't write it :p)

I think that before, we make up a big, great strategy,  we first must search for the weak spots in the Haven Faction. If we can counter them, the enemy will have a hard time.

Haven's Main Weaknesses:

-Weak Lvl 1 (virtually useless)
-Lvl 2 is fragile, and has a large damage range => high susceptible to Dark/destructive Magic
-Lvl5 are weak offencive units (pathetic Damage)
-Every unit in Haven can be Puppeted, Most can be blinded (exc Griffins) and/or Frenzied (exc Paladin)
-Low chance of getting Enlightement (rules out powerfull spell-casting Knights)
-High cost of Wood/Ore overall and Insane Crystal cost of Lvl6-7 creature Dwellings
- An overall SLOW army, except Griff and Cavaliers, who compesate
- Low chances of Mana/Spellpower increasements => Mana Shortages, and rules out effective Summoning and Destructive uses (most of the time)
-No Artifact Merchant
-Training cost has been limited in TotE ( IMBA in H5, and Hof, but still a disadvantage for the Knight player)

All these are minor to avarage weak spots in the Haven Faction (I forgot some??), but logically, there are some good points about Haven as well

Good Points:
-Very fast lvl 4-6-7
-Overall Cheap and Numerous units
-Access to Spellpower independant Magic schools: Light and Dark
-High chances of getting Leadership, Logistics and the "Supreme Might Skills" : Attack and Defence => Second Powerfull might faction
-Highly adaptable (= a lot of strategy possibilities with the Alternatives of the Foots and the Griffs)
-Hero has high chances for Attack/defence (Primairies)
-Ballista is Cheaper
-Chrystal (the resource you need the most by far) is produced by the Resource Silo (Note: this ins't always the case, like with Dungeon ,which has Sulphur instead of Chrystal)
-Strong Fliers
-Strong Light Spellcaster
-Access to good Dark Magic Counters (First Aid, Lay Hands, Purge, Cleansing, Vampirism, Teleport, Magical Immunity, Eternal Light, etc...)
-Strong lvl 2: Crossbowmen... well I don't need to elaborate on this

Tactics versus Inferno:

Right, as Elvin already knows, I am a fan of Both Light and Dark versus Inferno. Why? Inferno is very vulnerable to Dark Magic, and Light is eccelent to buff you own troops, as the enemy has little chance to have Surpress Light.
Yeah, I know, A waste of Skills, you might want to get Luck, War Machines or Enlightement istead of another Magic School. I have tested then the use of Dark and Light separately, and I will try to give you TWO build which I believe are good against Inferno (they worked for me untill now, but might mean my downfall versus a more experienced player) So feel free to comment, i say to you in Advance

Knight with Light:

Skills & Perks:
Light Magic (ofc) - MoA - Eternal Light - (MoW)
Leadership - Recruitement - Divine Guidance - Empathy
Attack - (Tactics) - Battle Frenzy - Retribution
Logistics - Scouting - Swift Mind - (Pathfinding)
Luck - Soldier's Luck - Dead Man's Curse - (Magic Resistance)


Explanations:
Ok First thing you might want to know is why I discarded Defence; Simply, I believed (and still do btw) that when you choose a Light Magic build, you should charge the enemy, take them off guard, lest your Magic Buffs would be of much use. Okay-Okay, It depends mainly on the Spells you get. If you get Endurance and Deflect Missile, you might be better of playing Defencively. However, I don't buy that; wh should you play defencively when you have Mass Endurance? It's not like the Inferno Player will simply cease attacking you when you've cast mass Endurance (He'll probably Puppet, Frenzy or Vulnerabelize one of you stacks). Frankly Defect Missile is a Joke versus Inferon. the Succubus is a somewhat weak lvl and pose only a really big thread in great numbers (Attack me already, Elvin!!) Anyhow, even if lethal , your Useless Defect Missile won't save you from Chain Shot or Seduce. Picking Light Highly depends on your spells. Go for this build if you have two or more of these spells in your Guild:  Haste, Regenration, Righteous Might, Endurance, Magical Immunity. It goes without saying that Eternal Light is a must versus Inferno (their Chances of getting Dark Magic are Simply too high). Master of Wrath is another must for an offencive build. However it's useless when you lack Haste/Righteous Might, so that's why I put it in brackets.
Leadership... The old Comrade of Haven, and again a real good skill for an offencive Faction. Empathy Speeds up you buffing and Divine Guidance speeds up Empathy. Good Skill, great Perks, how can we refuse? (now expecting some kind of anti-Leadership comment...)
Attack: A logic choice for an offencively oriented choice like this one. Tactics to negate your opponent's Tactics, and Battle Frenzy/Retribution for Obvious reasons Another of those Musts...
Logistics; nothing is nicer than casting Mass Haste/Mass Righteous Might/Magical Immunity on your troops before starting. (some goes for Dark Caster btw), needs the weak perk scouting though... I added Pathfinding as well, since this perk hardly ever is a waste; still not nessecairy (I'm refering to Pathfinding here...), so between brackets.
And Finally...Luck! Yes, Luck: we need to dispose ourselves of our enemy quicly before they can advance and cause much trouble/damage. Many of Haven's units benefit from Soldier's Luck (Conscripts/Brutes/Squires) and Dead Man's curse already takes away one of Inferno's Luck (always handy methinks). Luck is also a really good skill in a siege versus Inferno (and versus Nebiros). Magic Resistance makes it virually impossible for you opponent to cast Dark Magic effectively. (Good or bad analysis, please notify me)

Excluded :
Defence: see above
Enlightement: Good Skill, but not common and thus a liability
Sorcery: Same as above, and it's isn't that good either. Swift mind is better in 90% of the cases
Destructive/Summoning: Low chances and weak, due the Knight's Pathetic Spellpower. To be ignored
War Machines: No room anymore... sorry anyway I prefer this skill in Defencive tactics rather than Offencive ones.

Army:
Brutes: Use Vindicators/Griffins to absor the retaliation, and then cross your fingers for an assualt
Crossbowmen: obvious reasons...
Vindicators: Cleave is great versus low-Defence opponents
Imperial Griffins: Battle Dive Pit Fiends or Succubi (and maybe Horned leapers), Battle Dive is better than Rush dive offencively (Watch out of Weakness though!)
Zealots: nothing is nice than a good purge
Paladins: Lay hands pwns Dark Magic
Archangels: You'll lose some/a lot of units. Be ready to ressurect them if nessecairy

Hero possibilities:
Maeve (best by far), Irina (good as well), Klaus, Rutger, Ellaine (worst)

I'm going to pause right now, and I'll give you the Dark vs Inferno Tactic later on  


BRB.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 28, 2008 11:59 PM

Yeah, Right Kill me already...

Knight with Dark

Skills:
Dark Magic - Master of Mind - Seal of Darkness - Fallen Knight
Attack - Tactics - Battle Frenzy - Retribution
Leadership - Recruitement - Divine Guidance - Empathy
Logistics - Scouting - Swift Mind - (Pathfinding)
Defence: - Vitality - Stand your Ground - Preparation

Explanations:
I personally believe that the above Dark Magic Combo is mainly a Defencive Combo. You weaken your enemy with Powerfull Dark Magics (Maybe even a Frenzy/Puppet/Blindness or two?) and by the time they reach you their statts have been diminished greatly (remember, it doesn't render them harmless though!!!). You should go for the Dark Magic build if you have three or more of these spells in your guild: Puppet Master, Vampirism, Confusion, Slow, Sorrow, Frenzy, Blindness). Inferno is very susceptible to Dark Magic, as I said in the above post, so exploit it. Sorrow, Weaken, Slow, Suffer them if you have to, but remember, your best spells remain Vampirism, Frenzy and Puppet Master, you MUST have AT LEAST one of those, or you're toast. Now the Perks: Master of Mind is agians very sublective, as It depends on access to Slow/confusion, but don't hesitate to get it if you have one of them. A Mass Slow/Confusion at the start of Battle is a great headstart, as your enemy won't probably have Mass Haste. Seal Of Darkess ensures your opponent will run out of Mana soon, Fallen Knight however, is great for Spellpower dependand spells, like Decay and Puppet Master.
Attack is still a great perk here, basically for the same reasons as stated above. Attack is in this build more an extra blow to the Demon Lords low Defence, rather than a offencive perk. You can replace it by War Machines if oyu don't want to have Preparation and/or Retribution
Logistcs and Leadership are put here for the same reasons as with the Light build. Defence, is taken because his is a DEFENCIVE BUILD, but If you wish, you can take War Machines instead.

Left out:
War Machines: Sixth Choice. Too bad. May replace Attack or Defence, if you wish
Luck: Not needed for a defencive build, however, it is wagersworthy if you wish to take Soldier's Luck.
Enlightement/Sorcery/Destructive/Summoning: See above comments


Army:
Conscripts: Bash is handy, really disrupt enemy initiative
Crossbowmen: Spelas for itself, but Marksmen can work in this case as well
Vindicators: No real thread from ranged creatures, Cleave is better than Bash IMO (Ok, Elvin will surely disagree on that one), but Squires are good too (but I prefer Vindicators)
Imperial Griffins: Still more usefull than Battles. Howver, Battle Frenzy may ben an advantage that you should underestimate.
Zealots: Inquisitor's Light buff is fine, but Purge is better
Paladins: Lay Hands al the way, baby!
Anchangels: amilny the same reasons as in the above post.


Heroes:

Klaus(best choice), Laszlo, Rutger, Maeve, Ellaine (worst choice)

Ok Elvin, now you can unleash your stream of commants and disapprovals. Please don't be too harsh...

<*prays*>
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted July 29, 2008 04:51 PM
Edited by broadstrong at 16:52, 29 Jul 2008.

I have just joined HC, I do not post forums very often, so pardon me if my posts seem insubstantial in length...

I like to play Haven (tho mainly on TotE XL maps generated by RMG), so my experience with H5 could be quite different from multiplayer games...

Anyway, my 2 cents worth about Haven heroes:-

Dougal: His speciality + Basic Attack + Archery certainly makes him a very powerful hero in all stages of the game, no wonder in my games he hardly appears in my tavern...

Ellaine: Have to agree that she is not a good primary hero (though I like to use her becoz of the extra gold she brings), but it seems that she gets offered the 2% skills (Summoning, Destructive, Sorcery especially) more often...

Irina: Good speciality (at least for creeping) and starting with luck skill (which I feel is the best skill in H5 in some ways) is not a bad thing.  Magic resistance comes in handy at times.

Klaus: Late-game hero, but a very good one, IMO, with his speciality that benefits cavs/pals/champs.  Even more fearsome with attack skill.  Granted that retaliation strike is rather weak, at least when Klaus gets Unstoppable Charge his retaliation strike is MORE powerful, so...uh... MORE inclined to get him to reach Ultimate ability

Laszlo: Defence + Vitality makes troops under him hardier.  That's that.

Maeve: Seems like one of the best heroes, with TWO starting skills besides the racial, which translates to one step ahead of most heroes..in skills/abilities (provided players choose her power-ups wisely).  Haste is also a good spell to start with and be further improved by levelling up and Master of Wrath (Light Magic) or, a lesser alternative, Power of Speed (Attack).

Rutger: One of my favourite heroes, though his speciality does make him more suitable for troop ferrying.  Logistics, however, can lead to three possibilities: movement + resource-gathering (Warpath + Snatch), better scouting (Scouting + Silent Stalker, a good ability for all those XL maps I play on) or better in combat (Swift Mind--- getting to act before enemy troops, Death March, Familiar Ground).

Vittorio: My favourite (perhaps same for most people too) and good War Machine skill and related specialities, which transcends to an eighth unit --- the Ballista (or rather, Triple Ballista).  And that is NOT including Flaming Arrows (0 defence to targets) or Ring of Machine Affinity!  The other slot can go to Catapult (helps in sieges / ranged shooting) or First Aid (mini-resurrection / cleansing for 3 rounds --- hold its action unitl you need it)

As for units, it really depends on individual situations.  I agree with most of the posted, tho I usually take crossbowman + next 5 defensive-minded troops (classic upgrades, but imp griffs aren't exactly "defensive-minded") with the last slot being either brutes or vindicators or zealots

Feel free to provide alternate viewpoints, I know most H5 maps are not XL...

Hope to also share on skills/abilities for Haven soon...  

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted July 29, 2008 05:00 PM

Quote:

Ellaine: (...) seems that she gets offered the 2% skills (Summoning, Destructive, Sorcery especially) more often...


Completely random
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 30, 2008 12:01 PM

@Lexxan
Quote:
Haven's Main Weaknesses:

-Weak Lvl 1 (virtually useless)
Who cares?

-Lvl 2 is fragile, and has a large damage range
Except it's one of the best out there.

-Lvl5 are weak offencive units (pathetic Damage)
Why, do you ever use them? Train or upg and bless, nuff said.

-Every unit in Haven can be Puppeted, Most can be blinded (exc Griffins) and/or Frenzied (exc Paladin)
Too many counters to consider this a disadvantage. Light dispells darkness and as it does the opponent's time is running out.

-Training cost has been limited in TotE ( IMBA in H5, and Hof, but still a disadvantage for the Knight player)
Why?

Good Points:

-Highly adaptable (= a lot of strategy possibilities with the Alternatives of the Foots and the Griffs)
Umm not exactly what I'd call adaptability. You are mostly straightforward, not many surprises or alternative strategies.


Tactics versus Inferno:

Knight with Light:


Explanations: Okay-Okay, It depends mainly on the Spells you get. If you get Endurance and Deflect Missile, you might be better of playing Defencively.
-Wrong, your mana will run out and he'll puppet you to death. Thus your intuition on being offensive is right, however that does not make defense any less important. You won't kill them in 1 round.

Frankly Defect Missile is a Joke versus Inferon. the Succubus is a somewhat weak lvl and pose only a really big thread in great numbers (Attack me already, Elvin!!)
-In fact it's the least that should worry you. But if you are lucky to  have TOO many paladins they'll be immune to seduce

Magic Resistance makes it virually impossible for you opponent to cast Dark Magic effectively.
-Lol not really.

Knight with Dark


Left out:
Enlightement
-What..? *Produces a spiked club from his backpack*


Army:
Vindicators: No real thread from ranged creatures, Cleave is better than Bash IMO (Ok, Elvin will surely disagree on that one), but Squires are good too (but I prefer Vindicators)

-It's not about cleave or bash. You can bet it will be a dark duel and puppeted vindicators could be more harmful to you than squires just as they could hack demons to pieces. I'm not set on picking either, it will all depend on the circumstances.


@broadstrong
Welcome to HC A few comments.

Ellaine can't get offered skills more often it's random.

Ultimate ability sucks for the most part, better to avoid.

Maeve seems like one of the best heroes except she has no earlgame advantage as others have. Also harder to focus on warmachines should you choose to.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 30, 2008 12:16 PM

@ Elvin


Quote:
-Lvl5 are weak offencive units (pathetic Damage)
Why, do you ever use them? Train or upg and bless, nuff said.

Because of the great  Light buff/Purge. And even upgraded, the Inquisitor's/Zealot's damage is frightingly low. Oh, and I never use Preist unupgraded btw.  

Quote:
-Every unit in Haven can be Puppeted, Most can be blinded (exc Griffins) and/or Frenzied (exc Paladin)
Too many counters to consider this a disadvantage. Light dispells darkness and as it does the opponent's time is running out.

Hmm... I'm not sure about this. It's not that the Knight is able to outcast a Demon Lord (who usually have high Knowledge) A Knight can't Vampirise/Immunise every creature in their army (not counting Peasants here)

Quote:
-Training cost has been limited in TotE ( IMBA in H5, and Hof, but still a disadvantage for the Knight player)
Why?

Why did I write that for? I actually meanst Training itself, not it's cost. Anyway, legions of Marksmen aren't an option anymore...
Good Points:

Quote:
-Highly adaptable (= a lot of strategy possibilities with the Alternatives of the Foots and the Griffs)
Umm not exactly what I'd call adaptability. You are mostly straightforward, not many surprises or alternative strategies
.
"Adaptability" was the closest word I could think of. And I'm tired of using "Versatile" in every Strategy post



Knight with Light:


Quote:
Explanations: Okay-Okay, It depends mainly on the Spells you get. If you get Endurance and Deflect Missile, you might be better of playing Defencively.
-Wrong, your mana will run out and he'll puppet you to death. Thus your intuition on being offensive is right, however that does not make defense any less important. You won't kill them in 1 round.

I actually was Sarcastic about the "Defencive" part.

Quote:
Frankly Defect Missile is a Joke versus Inferon. the Succubus is a somewhat weak lvl and pose only a really big thread in great numbers (Attack me already, Elvin!!)
-In fact it's the least that should worry you. But if you are lucky to  have TOO many paladins they'll be immune to seduce

ARE Paladin's immune to Seduce?

Quote:
Magic Resistance makes it virually impossible for you opponent to cast Dark Magic effectively.
-Lol not really.
in addition with the Skill/perks above, I mean...

Quote:
Knight with Dark


Left out:
Enlightement
-What..? *Produces a spiked club from his backpack*

2% is too low to depend on. Though I would sacrefice Defence for it if I could.


Quote:
Army:
Vindicators: No real thread from ranged creatures, Cleave is better than Bash IMO (Ok, Elvin will surely disagree on that one), but Squires are good too (but I prefer Vindicators)

-It's not about cleave or bash. You can bet it will be a dark duel and puppeted vindicators could be more harmful to you than squires just as they could hack demons to pieces. I'm not set on picking either, it will all depend on the circumstances.

Like you said, there are lot's of Counters. If I pick Dark, I'd make sure, I have Vampirism and/or Paladins (and likely both)
With Light, I would use Magical Immunity or Teleport.


Quote:
Ultimate ability sucks for the most part, better to avoid.

Oh, the Irony. I though you were the one who told me a few weeks ago that I shouldn't underestimate Absolute Charge. [/Irony] I agree though; AC Isn't that great, Broadstrong.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 30, 2008 12:35 PM

Who cares about purge when you have many horsies :grin And buffs don't require too many of them except cleansing.

Quote:
And I'm tired of using "Versatile" in every Strategy post

LOL!

Quote:
ARE Paladin's immune to Seduce?

You are missing the part where seduce is hp based

2% for Enlightement is low but then so are many other skills. Writing down a build is wrong by itself, it's the general guidelines that matter. Along the way chances are you will be sidetracked, find something better etc.

Quote:
I though you were the one who told me a few weeks ago that I shouldn't underestimate Absolute Charge.

I did. It's good alright(and you'll regret underestimating it when used on a massive paladin stack ) but I simply favour a more personal combination. Less likely to mess up, no level restrictions, less affected by game randomness as compared to a rigid absolute build. That's only good in certain maps and not against any opponent so I'd advise against it unless you know what you are doing.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted July 30, 2008 02:55 PM
Edited by broadstrong at 02:46, 31 Jul 2008.

Quote:
Ellaine can't get offered skills more often it's random.


Agree that offering choices is totally random, but the randomness seems to work better for Ellaine, I don't see the other heroes offered the 2% skills that often...but I have not enough games to tally statistics for that...

Quote:
Ultimate ability sucks for the most part, better to avoid.


Will never understand how come Haven was given such a poor ultimate, which is due to Retaliation Strike being HARDLY used.  But the abilities to get while enroute to the Ultimate Skill are very good, such as Divine Guidance, Last Stand, Guardian Angel...and ofc Expert Trainer (a tool to overcome the limitation of weekly growth rate)

Quote:
Maeve seems like one of the best heroes except she has no earlgame advantage as others have. Also harder to focus on warmachines should you choose to.


Agree.  While levelling Maeve I am especially hard-pressed between giving her new skill (because good skills need to be taken early but may end up being expert-of-none) and improving existing skill (better skills, but fewer number of skills to aid in combat)

Quote:
From personal experience(and not only) Spoils of War should never EVER be picked. This is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen in a game, has virtually no impact on your game as it's too weak.


Second second that.  Imagine my expression after I gave Rutger the skill and realise how "much" money I get, even after those enemy hero/huge neutral battles..., not to mention I HARDLY get the resources --- 2 crystals after defeating enemy hero with 14 lava drags (or magma drags, I forgot)


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espen15
espen15


Famous Hero
posted August 01, 2008 02:37 PM

if you play with haven, forget early creeping, starting heroes are not powerful enough to kill neutrals with few losses, but in the end haven is mid faction, but early creeping is the most important or your hero won´t develop.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 02, 2008 09:14 PM

You haven't played with Vittorio or Dougal have you.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 02, 2008 09:20 PM

Or simply read the above posts.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted August 09, 2008 03:19 AM
Edited by broadstrong at 03:46, 09 Aug 2008.

And also other posts relating to Haven.

I won't call them a mid faction when Haven can basically tear down armies that are a few times stronger on paper (plus they can combine regeneration for resurrecting high-level troops slowly, and resurrection from angels or hero for resurrecting lower-level troops quickly).  

Besides, it is also known that the longer the game, the better Haven gets.  Only fortress (and skilful academy) can counter such superiority.  "Evil" factions lose out, hands (and legs) down (though I need enlightenment as to why powerful dungeon hero with plenty of empowered spells stll cannot defeat Haven).




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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 09, 2008 03:56 AM

Quote:
"Evil" factions lose out, hands (and legs) down (though I need enlightenment as to why powerful dungeon hero with plenty of empowered spells stll cannot defeat Haven).

Which evil factions? Necro possibly, dungeon depends on luck but they can hit&run so they are fine anyway, orcs have absolutely no problems and inferno could easily get the edge with familiars draining the knight. Dungeon is not ALL about destructive, its units and elemental chains can be devastating but it's a matter of initiative. There is no set rule x wins y, no idea where you got that. According to map, artifacts and time in the game however x may gain an advantage over y.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted August 11, 2008 04:28 PM
Edited by broadstrong at 14:20, 17 Dec 2008.

oops...guess I am so engrossed by Haven's potential power that I wished Haven would beat "evil" troops no matter what...

Though I have to admit that Haven is not very good in early game, perhaps that is why their end game can be quite powerful?

@Lexxan,

good posts about the skills knights should pick up, I intend to add on to this aspect, some day...

EDIT: ok, I know I should not do "thread resurrection" (since this is a thread on haven, I shall not use the term "thread necromancy"), but I still somehow feel that the haven faction is not fully discussed...yet.

Anyway, regarding the weaknesses Haven faces,

Quote:

-Weak Lvl 1 (virtually useless)
-Lvl 2 is fragile, and has a large damage range => high susceptible to Dark/destructive Magic
-Lvl5 are weak offencive units (pathetic Damage)


Lvl 1 troops useless?  Use them correctly, and the bash and assault abilities can work wonders.
Have to agree on the weakness for lvl 2 units.
Lvl 5 troops are offensively weak, but then they are meant for blessing own troops (Inquisitor) or removing curses from own troops and removing blesses from enemy troops (Zealot), its the imperial/battle griffins, cavs/pals and archangels/seraphs doing most of the damage anyway.

Quote:

-Every unit in Haven can be Puppeted, Most can be blinded (exc Griffins) and/or Frenzied (exc Paladin)

What are Cleansing and Lay Hands meant for?

Quote:

-Low chance of getting Enlightement (rules out powerfull spell-casting Knights)
- Low chances of Mana/Spellpower increasements => Mana Shortages, and rules out effective Summoning and Destructive uses (most of the time)

Sure enlightenment boosts stats, but don't expect the extra buffs to be (even) mostly in spellpower or knowledge.  
Also, are destructive and summoning magic that powerful? They are easily countered (by magic protection perks and artifacts, and ring of banishment respectively), more for magic heroes.

Quote:
 
-High cost of Wood/Ore overall and Insane Crystal cost of Lvl6-7 creature Dwellings

Lvl 7 dwelling uses gems, not crystals and the overall wood cost, though high, is NOTHING compared to sylvan towns where lack of wood can cripple growth, especially building of lvl 3 and lvl 6 dwellings.
Quote:

- An overall SLOW army, except Griff and Cavaliers, who compesate
-No Artifact Merchant

Slow and steady wins the race...
Artifact merchants?  Most likely you can't get (many) relic artifacts from there now that relics seemed to be "locked" for certain timings
Quote:

-Training cost has been limited in TotE ( IMBA in H5, and Hof, but still a disadvantage for the Knight player)

If training is given to sylvan (elf units), fortress (dwarf units) and dungeon (dark ekf units) they would gladly accept it.

So, IMO, the weaknesses are not that crippling, most of them aren't even "average".



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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 17, 2008 04:56 PM

Lvl 5 troops are offensively weak only if you ever use them Seriously why would you use then than train most into paladins or champions?
 
Destructive is pitiful, as for summoning magic you can use phantom forces/arcane armour that is insane on your boosted paladin stack. Or a good wasp swarm just to act first, has its uses.

Training is hardly a disadvantage, your main doesn't have to be the one to use it. All it takes is 3 levels for a secondary knight to get max counterstrike and expert trainer. Still this is irrelevant, if the game is going to last you can build hall of heroes for massive training later than worry about losing a couple of weeks when the main was away.



You know what my opinion on haven is? A brutal faction that charges with angels/champions while squires protect its ranged/support units and the griffins harass the enemy shooters or slow targets. There is a great amount of randomness in every battle since they depend on luck/morale so timing can make or break a game. Charge or be charged, cancel the opponent's mass spell with the opposite or be subject to it, resist the harmful spell or ravage your forces with your own hands. Even the initiative is random with morale, empathy, divine guidance, mass haste/slow rearranging the atb bar in the blink of an eye.

"On the battlefield, Haven troops are known to be extremely resistant, relying more on the mighty power of brutal force than on the delicate art of magic. The heroes of the Haven faction will develop skills and abilities to support the hurricane of steel and fury that will rush into the enemy's rank."

Haven's real weakenesses except mana deficiency are the paladin often finding himself surrounded or trapped in a deadly minefield, griffins being susceptible to wasted attacks like when opponent has mass haste or teleport - or neutralized with stormwind(try to battledive anything with 10 init..) and of course highly dependent on the battlefield's obstacles. That and earlygame weakness to rushes but short maps are not balanced anyway.


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