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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Dragons... how much we want from them???
Thread: Dragons... how much we want from them??? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Brawlermatrix
Brawlermatrix


Thinking Outside the Box
posted August 03, 2008 02:24 AM

"Problem is, that this leaves us with tying Chromatic Dragons (Dungeon) to Shalassa (Water Dragon) which doesn't make too much sense! "

Actually under Feng Shui it would work given that Chromatic is based on metallic elements and thus you can explain it as such;

Creative Cycle
Water feeds Wood
Wood fuels Fire
Fire creates Earth ( in the form of ash)
Earth creates Metal
Metal can flow like Water

Destructive Cycle
Water quenches Fire
Fire melts Metal
Metal cuts Wood
Wood exhausts Earth
Earth pollutes Water

Giving a reasoning to your choice in dragon types.
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isabelyes
isabelyes


Fierce Battlegriffin
posted August 03, 2008 11:17 AM

i love the dragons!

the more, the marrier!
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 03, 2008 01:54 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 14:05, 03 Aug 2008.

My ideas about Dragons...

Quote:
Option 7. Before you make judgements about dragons, first classify what a 'dragon' is.


In The Usual Fantasy Spheres (D&D, Forgotten Realms, LotR, etc...) Dragons are Saurian, Sentient, Flying and Extremely Dangerous beasts, who can easlty roast you with their fire breath. Fantasy Dragons are completely or partially Impervious to Magic (and in some cases they use Magic - Fairy Dragons), breath Fire, have Scales instead of Skin and Talons instead of Claws. This is in fact the image of Dragons in Games as H3, H4, Rage of Mages, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, WoW, D&D and other Fantasy Games.

In H5 Dragons are different; they are Deities, or Children of Deities, the first Creatures that ever existed. Not only their heritage differs, but their appearances and abilites do as well, the most striking Example being the Fire Dragon (which is in fact and Elemental). Things as elementairy to Fantasy Dragons, like Firebreath, Flight or Scales aren't elementairy anymore to the H5 Dragon. If the Nagae should pop up one day with a Dragon made of Water, that can't fly but can cast Deep Freeze, it still would fit the Ashan Dragon Idea, since it would be considered a Child of Shalyssa, yet it fails to meet the "normal" Dragon criteria. A defintion would be: a Highly Intelligent and Ancient creature that is either a Deity or a Direct descendant of that Deity.

Creatures that fail both the "Fantasy" and "Ashan" Criteria are creatures like the Basilisk, the Jormundaddr or the Wyvern. They lack the abilites of "Fantasy" Dragons and the leneage of the "Ashan" Dragons. IOW, I disagree with those that say that Wyverns are Dragons, they aren't.  

Moreover, Creatures like Angels, Devils or Faceless aren't Dragons. They are the races created by one of the Eight Dragons, which is their patron deity.

If we assume that Nival fails to make H6, and another company (eg Blizzard,  Ensemble Studios,...) we will most likely return to the "Fantasy" Dragon, which basically has the same design (Large wings, flat and long head, long and spiky tail) of H3-4. I think it's unlikey that we'll see a Chinese, Slavic or Frankish Dragon in H6 then, unless there's a town that is exactly themed to have one of those (which I personally doubt). However, we wouldn't have any limits on Dragons; we could get one of them, but we could as well get Sixty of them.

Should Nival continue (something I secretly hope), I believe we should get SIX of them 'not counting upgrades), no more AND no less.
Each Dragon would be the off-spring of an Ashan Deity and fit one Primordial race (Humans/Faceless/Angels/Nagae/Elves/Dwarves). Seeing the unorthodox (but beatifull design) of the Fire Dragon in HoF, I think the chances are rather high to get more than the average Fantasy Design for all Dragons. We could get a Slavic one, a Chinese one, etc...  allow me to make a list.

Elrath: Dragons of Light - Names relating to Hemisperic and Universal Phenomenoi (Solar, Lunar, etc.) - Gold and Silvery coloured - Slavic Dragon Design - Able to create Ecypses and have the Child of Light ability

Malassa: Dragons of Darkness - Names relate to Dark things (Dusk, Shadow) - Grey, Black and Purple Colours - Fantasy Dragon Design - High Magic Resistance

Sylath: Dragons of Air - Names relate to the Weather (Thunder, Storm) - White, blue and/or grey - Chinese Dragon Design - Immunity to Air and Lightning Breath

Arkath: Dragons of Fire - Names related to Fiery things (Blazing, Magma) - Looks like it's afire- H4 Fire Dragon Design - Immunity to Fire and Fire Shield

Shalyssa: Dragons of Water - Names relate to Marine Elements (Tidal, Whirlpool) - Looks like it's made of Ice - Welsh Dragon Design - Immune to Water and Freezing Attack.

Sylanna: Dragons of Earth - Names relate to Natural Elements (Forest, Glade) - Green, Aquamarine and Pink colours - Fairy Dragon Design - Earth Immunity and Spellcaster

I don't wish more Dragons than the one's listed above; now even as neutrals. Dragon derived creatures like Dragon Golems and Dragons are fine with me.

EDIT: As for the names... I really dislike names based on colours: it is uncreative, boring and quite cliché. What I would like in a Game is that the Dragons have names that relate back to their Element, Niche, Abode, etc. Shadow Dragon and Emerald Dragon are excellent examples of such name giving.

If you would like multiple Dragons, they should differ enough, both in Appearance and Abilities. The world knows different Dragon design, it's a pity if don't use some of them. And the Abilities should be logical too. These should have a link to the Deity theiy are linked to or the Faction they are part of. Dragon of Light could have Child of Light or Make Eclypses (if with the Dragon Knights), Dragons of Darkness should be immune to certain spells (like Blindness and Puppet Master), Dragons of Air should have either Lightning Breath or Thunderstrike, Dragon of Water should freeze their opponents, while Dragons of Fire have Fire Shield and Dragons of Earth cast spells (if Fairy Dragon) or are extra Lucky (if Green Dragon).

So what, do you think?


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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 03, 2008 03:00 PM

Quote:
Alc: The faceless were a race that worships Malassa, like angels and Elrath.


Yes ... I was mistaken there. You are right, Angels and Faceless rank among the original races like Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Naga. That settles it then, I would vote for 6 + 1 Dragon races:

Earth = Chrystalline
Fire = Elemental
Water = Wyrms
Air = Metallic
Shadow = Chromatic
Light = ?
+ Undead

Dragons of Elrath: Firebird + Phoenix? Hmmm.

Quote:
@ Alc: Since when does the name need to describe a creature?


Not necessarily the name, then, but the class description should. Just like Wyrm, Elemental Dragon, Chromatic Dragon, Chrystalline Dragon or Metallic Dragon tells us something about what kind of creature we're dealing with in terms of properties and looks.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 03, 2008 03:20 PM

How about "Celestial Dragon" for Light?

And Alc:

Quote:
Dragons of Elrath: Firebird + Phoenix? Hmmm.


That's really out for me. I do not consider myself an expert on Ashan Lore (that's something more for Ceph), but Phoenices are out-of-the-question for me.

Why? Just look at their description for starters
Quote:
These birds of pure fire roam freely in the skies. They are powerful allies for any hero lucky enough to find their hidden lairs and enlist their support. The essence of fire makes Phoenixes very hard to hit - any attacking creature will burn in their flames. But the most amazing Phoenix ability is to rise anew from the ashes they burn down to after their death.

Nowhere is mentionned their affection or lineage with Elrath. Nowhere. They don't look like Dragons, they aren't kin of the Dragon Deities and they aren't part of a faction in one way. Maybe in an Non-Ashan world, but as it is now. Nontheless an innovative idea
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 03, 2008 03:43 PM

I disagree with Lexxan, having color named dragons is cool, and traditional.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 03, 2008 03:49 PM

I agree, actually, that Phoenii are not Dragons.

Also, I think since Metallic Dragons are traditionally the arch-enimies of Chromatic Dragons, it would make good sense to say:

Light = Metallic Dragons
Dark = Chromatic Dragons
Air = ?
Water = Wyrms
Fire = Elemental
Earth = Crystalline

One could put Air = Wyverns as suggested. Goes well with the Lightning Breath, and goes also well with the fact that Orcs could follow Sylath.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 03, 2008 04:04 PM
Edited by xerox at 16:09, 03 Aug 2008.

Dragon Knights should have Elraths dragons. There is no evidence that Asha has her own dragons when I think about it, neither have Urgash.

Light Dragon -> Celestial/Solar Dragon.

Also Lexxan, in Warcraft dragons are not beasts and are not "lol magic monsters" -.-
They are intelligent and divided into "dragonflights" how each of them has a "Dragon Aspect" that watches over something in the world (in this case the orginial dragonflights rule over Life (red) , Nature/Dreams (green), Time (bronze), Earth (black) and Magic (blue) ).


Anyway this is a Ashan thread.
In my opinion Dragons are a sub-speices of "Dragonkin".
Other speices are Wyrms, Wyverns etc.

As I said before I strongly think that Wyverns once were Wind Dragons. And how could a Phoenix be a dragon?
In Ashan a Phoenix is just a creature created and summoned by Wizards that fled -.-

Anyway here is the descirption of the perfect H5 Wyverns (Pao-Kai = awesome, so awesome that Blizzard stole them):

"It is said that the wyverns are degenerate dragons, transformed under the power of some cursed magic"

Think again.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 03, 2008 04:47 PM

Blizzard stole them?  When where how?
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 03, 2008 05:23 PM

@ Xerox: I didn't know that. I'm not a Warcraft 3 Zealot (rather an H5 Zealot)

Still I have trouble with counting Wyverns as Dragons...


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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 03, 2008 05:30 PM

They did!
They stole its appearance atleast in the next expansion. There are proto-dragons that looks almost exactly like the Pao-kai.
I will try to find a screenshot.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 03, 2008 06:08 PM

Quote:
Still I have trouble with counting Wyverns as Dragons...


Me too, but if you look up Wyverns in classical mythology, you will typically see something like this: "Description: two-legged dragon with two wings, a serpent’s head and the claws of an eagle."

Or from Wikipedia on Wyverns: "The wyvern is regarded as a type of dragon. Depictions often include two legs and two wings.[1] Sometimes there are eagle's claws on the wingtips. The rest of its appearance can vary, such as appearing with a tail spade or with a serpent-like tail."
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 03, 2008 07:34 PM
Edited by Daystar at 19:36, 03 Aug 2008.

It's more of that Taxonomy thing:

Reptiles = Little/Saurian/Draconic

REPTILES
Little = Lizards/Snakes/Iguanas etc.
Saurian = The things the DElves ride.
Draconic = Worms/Pures/Ofshoot/Avian

DRACONIC
Worms = Frost/Forest/Sand
Pures = Crystaline/Chromatic/Metalic/etc
Ofshoot = Wyvern/Orientalesque
Avian = Pfenix

PURES
Crystaline = Emerald/Jade/Diamond/etc
Chromatic = Red/Black/Green/Yellow/etc
Metalic = Rust/Gold/Silver/etc

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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 03, 2008 08:26 PM

Shouldn't it be wyrms instead of Worms?
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 03, 2008 08:49 PM
Edited by xerox at 00:31, 04 Aug 2008.

This is my opinion.

Dragons are NOT reptilians (and this is about Ashan).
They are just dragons. It doesnt matter if its a Wyrm - its still a Dragon.
I think:

----------------------------Asha----------------------------------------
-------Malsassa---Sylvanna---Arkath---Sylath---Elrath---Shalassa--------
-------Blackies---Greens-----Fire-----Air------Light----Sea Wyrms-------
-------------------------------------Wyverns----------------------------

Ashas children just looked diffrent, end of story.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 03, 2008 10:11 PM

I agree 90% with Xerox
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 03, 2008 10:15 PM

So where did Wyverns, Wyrms, and other stuff come from?
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 03, 2008 10:17 PM

Also I don't believe there can be Sea Wyrms in the first place, as Wyrms have apparently been totally exterminated.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 03, 2008 10:23 PM

Build a time machine into a Uboat.

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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 03, 2008 10:24 PM

I'll get right on it.

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