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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Have you ever tried martial arts? Facts and myths about MAs.
Thread: Have you ever tried martial arts? Facts and myths about MAs. This thread is 35 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 ... 31 32 33 34 35 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted August 03, 2008 08:39 PM

Quote:
You are telling the urban myths I just summed up, The Death, I'm sorry. There are no paralization techniques possible to perform on a opponent that knows what he is doing.
First of all, some are urban myths, some are not. Who do you trust to tell you they are? Of course, in Romania for example, no one ever did anything interesting, so should I assume martial arts are "myths" and don't even exist?

I'm pretty sure I had a video somewhere with a paralyzing hit. I'll try to find it but it was for download, not YouTube, and it'll be hard to find. However it even had some 'science' (since you trust that) behind with something like muscle paralyzation or striking some nerves (on the back of the body) or something like that. Can't really remember.

Quote:
Good reflexes, coordination and technique give the "speedy strike" effect seen in box matches, but their hands in reality are not much faster than ours!
Box? Who said anything about boxing? That's not even an "art", it's a sport.

I think we're talking about different things here.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 03, 2008 08:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:46, 03 Aug 2008.

I'm guessing TheDeath will now tell us about the E = mv^2/2 formula we all know about, but don't forget guys: You can triple your weight, but you can barely affect your speed.

I'm talking about FIGHTS, not some ambiguous techniques of little effect. You may try to apply some pressure to a "vital point" to a boxer, but he will smash your face ten times before you even get close to him. Again, UFC, Pride and all others showed what is important and waht is not. In the early K1 times, people weren't MMA martists, they were specialists. In those days, BJJ _OWNED_ almost everything else, and traditional styles, like Kung Fu, lost nearly everything. A simple and effective confirmation of what I said, I believe. later on, pure BJJ fighters started losing to those who trained ground fight, striking and takedown defence, that's how MMA was born. And it proved to be the best system around.


do you know how much MONEY you can get for winning a fight there? If chi, paralizing moves, instant KOs or anything else worked, we would see it a lot of times. But we never did. We've seen a lot of punching, grappling and kicking, though. Don't tell me all of those who can paralyze, shoot kamehameha or fry their foe with brain power don't want money and fame because it's ridiculous

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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted August 03, 2008 08:47 PM

Maybe because real masters doesn't care about things as materialistic as money...?

No really, I love MMA, I think it's great entertainment, and I'm pretty sure those guys would pretty much beat the hell out of almost anyone.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 03, 2008 08:49 PM

I'm certain at least ONE super saiyan son goku would want to own the MMA scene and become famous and mega rich. Unless they are ultra rare. To the point of not existing. In such case, I agree!

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted August 03, 2008 09:00 PM

Quote:
I'm guessing TheDeath will now tell us about the E = mv^2/2 formula we all know about, but don't forget guys: You can triple your weight, but you can barely affect your speed.
From my experience, everything that you do becomes "not what you expected" and your mind becomes full of doubt. That is a problem. It happened even to me when programming some stuff. Later on, after a week, I realized my mistake and continued to it with a fresh mind, cleansed of any doubts (they don't say this word "cleanse your mind" just for entertainment in movies, trust me, not only even in martial arts movies!!) and I finished it in 2 days instead of 1 week. But that's not all, actually I re-wrote it with a better algorithm, which at the previous time seemed completely illogical.

I'm not trying to sound like a myth. I'm just saying my experience since I'm a geek. Also, yes I trust Seagal and Jet Li in "real life" more than those that want "fame". You know why? Because they admit their limitations. They admit that they can't do everything, but they constantly try. It is not like they think like "Look it doesn't work... Ok, so it's fake", because if you do so, you have halted your process. Completely. You need to keep to your beliefs and not have doubts if you want to do it correctly. (but you can also shoot me, I believe in God too).

I also believe in telekinesis but shoot me since I haven't seen anyone with it yet. Yes movies are myths, but I also believe in Aliens -- coverups are pretty common. Movies are actually something that try to 'fool' the population and make them think that absolutely everything you see in a movie is fake. That is not true, even though in the movie itself it was (actors for example, aren't always the best).

Quote:
And it proved to be the best system around.
Because no one wants old "masters" that don't bring money and fame and "entertainment".

Movies proved to be a good system too

Quote:
do you know how much MONEY you can get for winning a fight there? If chi, paralizing moves, instant KOs or anything else worked, we would see it a lot of times. But we never did. We've seen a lot of punching, grappling and kicking, though. Don't tell me all of those who can paralyze, shoot kamehameha or fry their foe with brain power don't want money and fame because it's ridiculous
Jet Li:
Quote:
If someone learns martial arts solely to pick fights on the street, to lean on it as a keystone weapon in conflicts, to use it to bully and intimidate others - then that person, in my opinion, cannot be considered a true martial artist. Sure, he may have mastered the physical aspect of the art - know all the forms to the point of creative second nature. Sure, he may win all the fights, beat up all his opponents, leaving them bleeding, and claim some outside applause. But while physically he may have won - in other respects, he has lost. Badly. For one can never win another person's heart through fighting, through hostile force. The defeated, the one who had to bear the brunt of your physical force will only walk away with a wounded heart, with anger.
Note this doesn't say anything about his current level and "power" of fighting, but if you want to do it correctly, don't think like a power-youngster that just got his new toy and wants to impress others.

Quote:
I'm certain at least ONE super saiyan son goku would want to own the MMA scene and become famous and mega rich. Unless they are ultra rare. To the point of not existing. In such case, I agree!
Then you don't understand their philosophy. What I talked before with the "inner" part (or whatever you want to call it) contradicts the very notion of what you said above. If you are not devoted to it, then of course it doesn't "work". Most "masters", believe it or not, don't go around looking for fights. That will only make them a common youngster.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 03, 2008 09:09 PM

Quote:
(but you can also shoot me, I believe in God too).


Me too!

Quote:
And it proved to be the best system around.
Because no one wants old "masters" that don't bring money and fame and "entertainment".


Are you joking? The rules of UFC changed for a reason. People wanted more ACTION, roundhouses, knees, not ground crawling. That's why the referee breaks up the fighters after a certain time. An old master would CERTAINLY become a great source of entertainment. Seems there is none, my friend!

That is why pro-wrestling (where everything was scripted) is still more popular than MMA in the States. And don't tell me the old masters and their skill wouldn't be an eye candy!

Quote:
If someone learns martial arts solely to pick fights on the street, to lean on it as a keystone weapon in conflicts, to use it to bully and intimidate others - then that person, in my opinion


.. is an idiot.
Martial arts are a hobby. If you want to bully people, get yourself a gun. or a baseball bat.

Quote:
Then you don't understand their philosophy. What I talked before with the "inner" part (or whatever you want to call it) contradicts the very notion of what you said above. If you are not devoted to it, then of course it doesn't "work". Most "masters", believe it or not, don't go around looking for fights. That will only make them a common youngster.


You don't need to be a master NOT to look for fights. Looking for fights is ridiculous and pretty much everyone training martial arts - be it box (yes its called MA too) or aikido - for more than a few months will understand that, sooner or later.

As for the inner part, what stops you from meditating and believing in Chi, in addition to training the better system, like MMA, rather then not-very-effective Kung Fu? I fail to see your point here mate. You can be the most peaceful and mystic person around, who additionaly trains BJJ, for example. Why not?

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Elvin
Elvin


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Rejuvenation process
posted August 03, 2008 09:10 PM

Good reading, thanks Doomforge. I never really knew much about martial arts but I am interested in the subject. Once I considered it but I'm not exactly fit and some gym seemed a better option at the time.
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Asheera
Asheera


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posted August 03, 2008 09:18 PM

Wow, this page really had a "burst of popularity" if you know what I mean

I mean, I just came back from a small break (this thread didn't exist back then) and now it already has 2 pages

Interesting subject btw
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted August 03, 2008 09:22 PM
Edited by Adrius at 21:29, 03 Aug 2008.

Man, quote wars gives me headaches... I thought this would be a peaceful thread but then Death shows up with his SIRIOUSness... (Not that I think you're wrong)

Anyway, the reason why I started doing Judo was because a friend told me it was really fun. He got bored and quit, but I continued

The impact that Judo has had on my life has been severe. And even if it isn't supposed to be used for it, the security in knowing that you're able to defend yourself is very enjoyable
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted August 03, 2008 09:26 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 21:41, 03 Aug 2008.

Quote:
Are you joking? The rules of UFC changed for a reason. People wanted more ACTION, roundhouses, knees, not ground crawling. That's why the referee breaks up the fighters after a certain time. An old master would CERTAINLY become a great source of entertainment. Seems there is none, my friend!

That is why pro-wrestling (where everything was scripted) is still more popular than MMA in the States. And don't tell me the old masters and their skill wouldn't be an eye candy!
You did not get me. I said that "old" masters that don't want entertainment (again: it contradicts their philosophy) will not provide a good source because they simply don't want. Even if they would once, people will crave for more. That's how it always works. I guess it's a lot wiser to just step back, even if you are "da bomb".

If they were to do it solely for entertainment, then they would break their own philosophy, which in turn means that they didn't do it correctly. If someone does it (breaks it), don't expect much from him. They can, however, use demonstrations if they think this will "help" others, not just entertain them. It has been in a documentary about a guy who stopped a knife with his hand still. Don't tell me documentaries are fake as well, especially because the guy even explained how he did it (and it's most certainly NOT EASY)? Then what the hell can we trust? Scientifical documentaries? Or just our own existence. If I were to go by that, I wouldn't even believe Poland (your country) exists!

Quote:
You don't need to be a master NOT to look for fights. Looking for fights is ridiculous and pretty much everyone training martial arts - be it box (yes its called MA too) or aikido - for more than a few months will understand that, sooner or later.
I don't know. Personally, I've never encountered personally any true martial artist. All I have is from messages and forums and the internet, much like you. But I know just because I never encountered doesn't mean that all of them are doing it just to mislead me with their diabolical plans (even though it doesn't really help them at all).

I've never been to China either but I'm pretty sure it exists.

Quote:
As for the inner part, what stops you from meditating and believing in Chi, in addition to training the better system, like MMA, rather then not-very-effective Kung Fu? I fail to see your point here mate. You can be the most peaceful and mystic person around, who additionaly trains BJJ, for example. Why not?
Uhm, brute force is usually in contradiction to that. You can have both, but you can't use them both at the same time. And if you do have mega strength, then you are no different than a normal culturism guy (how do you spell it in english?)... Actually, that usually prevents you from doing the real task at hand. It's like focusing your philosophy in parts that contradict it. This doesn't necessarily "kill" it but it does HALT it. Yes, all martial arts (well the real ones) have a philosophy.

Martial arts is not necessary about fighting. And it's most certainly not about brute force! Martial Arts is about controlling your own self.

I know you're going to say that what I say above is "nice" and all that (control etc), but seriously what do you expect me to say? English is not such a good language at explaining it.


EDIT: Someone posted a story a while ago (quoted, so it's not authentic for that forum) at a forum:
Quote:
About 15 years ago I had the chance to practice with Haga-sensei, a very famous kendo guy. If you've seen "Kendo's Gruelling Challenge", he's the little old guy coaching Miyamoto. At the time I was about 30, he was 76. I outweighed him by probably 50 lbs and was maybe 8" taller. He invited me to practice taiatari-men, which is basically charging into him full-speed, a cross-check with the hilt and then rebound backwards, hitting his head on the way out. After a couple of polite tries on my part (it's usually good form not to hurt the old guys), he made it clear I was to give it my best shot, which I did.

I didn't move him back. Not one inch. And I'm here to tell you that there's a lot of things about my kendo I'm not happy with, but my taiatari is pretty solid. I have knocked back some pretty senior guys who've outweighed me by quite a bit.

I'm sure there's some explanation for why a 190 lb 30 year old in his prime couldn't move back a little old guy more than 4 decades his senior with what amounts to a flying cross-check. He redirected the force into the ground, whatever he did. I'm sure he'll explain it with chi. But whatever, it was real.

After I did that, I watched him fight all comers and make them look silly, even the most senior guys in Vancouver, who are some of the best in North America. He's an amazing guy. Still practicing, I hear.
Call it BS, call it myth. Call it reality. I don't know, I'm not into that right now. I just wanted to share it with you guys. If you find it annoying you can tell me to remove it.


@Adrius:
Quote:
Man, quote wars gives me headaches... I thought this would be a peaceful thread but then Death shows up...
Honestly my posts are pretty big. If it were to be one without any quotes I think most of my points will get ignored.

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Asheera
Asheera


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posted August 03, 2008 10:55 PM

@Doomforge: Check this out
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted August 03, 2008 10:59 PM
Edited by Adrius at 00:08, 05 Aug 2008.

Heh, I always use Ki-ai in competitions, that way, if the judge judges by aggression, I'll have the upperhand

Although recently it's become more of a reflex, and I use it in Randori (sparring) as well.

Btw, Wing Chun is the coolest martial art there is. Nothing showy, just quick and effective. Sifu Emin Ftw!
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted August 04, 2008 12:04 AM
Edited by JoonasTo at 00:10, 04 Aug 2008.

I did karate for 8 years, aikido and judo for one year. I considered starting han moo do (a martial ars system derived from kuk sool won) but didn't pick it up. Iaido has always interested me but my mother refused that from me. That's all martial arts you can learn in my home town.

Judo is a sport, it has always been and it will always be.

Aikido was way too hard for me, a boy who was 185 tall and weighted under 50 kilos just couldn't cope with being soft and fluid but I've seen aikido in action. It works.

Then comes han moo doo, my friend has done it for 8 years now. It seems very balanced but it is a system after all but maybe it didn't draw me in because it's a stripped version from kuk sool won. It misses the spiritual and herbical side.

Iaido is the "Samurai-art", in english, they use katana's. Obviously you won't be carrying your katana along with you at a hot-dog kiosk.

Karate, wado-ryo, was my first martial art and it also lasted the longest. Due to badly organised teaching, (I had to teach the juniors for one year while on orange belt), I had only green belt even though I know the techniques all the way to brown. There was only two of us left at that time in our stage. We both quit after the green belt. Wado ryo is a straight karate style derived from shotokan with some jujutsu influence. It might very well be the best karate style when it comes to fighting. It doesn't normally have full-contact sparring but we did have full-contact sparrs, even head contact was allowed.
It is straight not round fast
It is simplificated faster
It doesn't try to block the incoming attack, it goes past it even faster.
Oh and it includes locks, throws, grapples and ground combat.

Weight isn't important, it's the speed!
Wrong and right. Wrong because weight is very important. The hevier the strike the harder the blow. This has to be put into context though. A heavy round punch is hard yes but a fast straight one will reach the opponent first. Because usually you want to keep yourself from harm the straight one is more desireable. (Difference is of course when you start the fight and get the first shot but you should never do that. Then there are those guys that you can shoot with a 9mm and they won't even slow down but thats another matter.)

My friend has a friend that owned 6 guys at once
This actually can be done but it requires "cheating" of a kind, just keep retreating bakwards. As long as you can retreat fast enough only one or two of them can get to fighting distance of you. Then just punch those who come close enough and eventually you have battered all of them. (Watch your legs! You don't wanna trip.)

My style, XXX, teaches ancient martial killing moves!
There are "kill" moves but they aren't like in the movies. Strangle, very strong hit to the head causing neck to break, strong hit to the kidneys causing internal injuries etc.

Krav maga owns all, it's a military system, so it has to be superior!
Military systems are only for extreme situations and in such everyone knonws the best ways already, eyes and balls.

It's better to be one-style specialist than weak jack of all trades.
You wanna be a specialist who has enough knowledge of other arts to keep himself from being helpless in other situations and more importantly keep himself away from those situations. Like the karate guy example.

I want to be like Bruce Lee, so i'm trying to harden my fists by <insert one of thousands of methods here>
You can harden them but doing it like punching a brick wall isn't the right way it will break them not strenghten, like DF pointed out, but for getting yourself used to hitting someone it's a good way. Lots of calcium, vitamin-d and stress from shakes(don't know the right word from english) punching a bag, for example, do it much better.

I can learn fighting from videotapes, books, training on punching bags etc
In theory, yes. In practice, no. DF covered this pretty well.

Those shaolin monks would defeat anyone!
This might be the case. But we will never know, will we?

Roundhouse kicks, high kicks etc. rock!
Well this goes into the situational category. Never on a ready opponent. On a sligthly stunned one try a stlightly rounding, mostly straight kick to the head followed by a roundhouse that you set in motion with the one kick to the head before.

BJJ is gay and useless against more than one opponent
Useless against more than one? yes.
Gay? When someone is holding you in a proper hand-lock you'll be praying that you hadn't been so homophobic.

As to the concept of chi. Chi does exist. It doesn't matter what you call it, it might be chi, power, lifeforce, energy, magic or strenght. The thing is that you can gather and focus it on single point or moment. This is what is referred to as ki-ai, the concentration of energy that is released at the moment of impact. It can be used in a different way also. These other styles are more the territory of yoga and tai-chi. Example: My father can, if he so pleases, move his fingers an inch above my skin and I know where they are going even if I have no way off physically knowing where they are.

I know that sleeping, stunning, relaxing and paralysing moves exists. I have seen people fall asleep only with a slight press at their palm. I know how to hit a man in the neck so he drops on the ground at his knees with only minor force included.

These have been performed by a chinese master of tai-chi and martial arts.
Two young finnish medicine students who infused modern medical knowledge of nervous systems and ancient eastern knowledge and created their own way.
We used to spend our breaks in upper shool with a few classmates of mine trying out the hit on the neck. It relaxes all of your muscles completely for a fraction of a second, enough for you to drop at your knees, some people fall down completely.

The thing with these techniques is that doing them in a fight is nigh-impossible.

All of those things are important for a fighter:
1. Reflexes
2. Mind
3. Body weight
4. Technique
5. Predisposition
6. Coordination, flexibility


I have terrible reflexes, they are around ten times faster than they were before I started Karate but they still can't match those that few of my friends have.
My mind is good. I'm stubborn and endure medium pain with ease.
I have very heavy bones. 188 tall and bodyweight of 80 kilos and I'm nothing but skin and bones.
Technique must have worsened as I haven't been practicing in years.
Predisposition from far ahead is good but when coming to the actual start of the fight it isn't nearly as good.
Flexibility of my upper body is great but my legs are my weak point. Coordination is the same way. This is a shame since my legs are tremendously powerful(three meters jump without any speed) and my chest muscles are pathetic(20 push-ups is hard for me). Otherwise I'm very tight with no big muscles but above average natural strenght.

About those masters not showing up in MMA tournaments or such. Many of the martial arts have rules that probhibit people from those styles joining any tournaments or such. Also like Death pointed out, they don't fit into the philosophy that most martial arts revolve around. Wado-ryo, for example, means in english "the way of peace". The latest stages in most martial arts is psykological not physical.

EDIT: I also trained with a friend of mine using staffs. We trained two summers on an abandoned field. It was mostly light combat ending when the other gained one, two or three hits but we did some full-contact sparring too. Sometimes we managed to get a third one into the fray. We did two versus ones and while they were good they didn't stand even close to three ways. Three ways are absolute. There is nothing more stressful to your senses than that.
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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


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posted August 04, 2008 01:51 AM

Nice thread, I don't have time to finish it now but I'll come back.

What does BJJ mean?

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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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able to speed up time
posted August 04, 2008 08:00 AM

Quote:
You can triple your weight, but you can barely affect your speed


I just don't believe this at all.
-just from casual training, I've increased my own speed hugely.  Not only in martial arts, I can train my muscles to move faster in other fields too, like playing musical instruments and swinging a tennis racket.

-There's a video you should watch called "Street Magic" by David Blaine.  Some amazing stuff, and about 70 percent of it is done by the simple fact that Blaine can move his hands faster your eye can see.

-Given the fact that Bruce Lee grew up street fighting in Hong Kong, and pretty much demolished anybody that picked a fight with him, I find it strange that you would dismiss him as an "actor".  At this point I find his assertion that "speed is everything" a lot more credible than your assertion that "He wouldn't win a MMA cagefight."  (Also, given that his entire style consisted of absorbing elements from different fighting styles, I'd be highly surprised if he hadn't dealt with grappling at some point in his life.)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 04, 2008 11:53 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:59, 04 Aug 2008.

Quote:
And even if it isn't supposed to be used for it, the security in knowing that you're able to defend yourself is very enjoyable


Exactly. It's pleasant to feel you are not a random wimp, even if in dire situation I'd rather run than fight, unless it would be necessary (and even then, I'd use the baton or pepper spray )

As for the "old masters" : their myths are mostly urban legends and hollywood doing, and the "we can't fight in tournaments" thing is quite comfortable. You can't see them in action, so you can't bash the myth. And it goes on. Bah. Say what you want, I don't believe in any hollywood-ish "old masters". I believe in older people who dedicated their lives to martial arts, have insane skill and experience, but their bodies are failing (natural thing), so they can't really fight anymore, because they would most likely lose: they can pass their knowledge to younger guys, though, and so they do. Highly respectable people, but let's not exaggerate - they are no gods of combat.

About that Kendo story, sorry, I don't believe a single word in it, and there is no reason why I should believe in it anyway. I can tell that my opponent, 124-year old sensei turned super sayian and owned be, and swear it is true.. would you believe it? Sorry, but its as real as the "chi block"..

Quote:
This actually can be done but it requires "cheating" of a kind, just keep retreating bakwards. As long as you can retreat fast enough only one or two of them can get to fighting distance of you. Then just punch those who come close enough and eventually you have battered all of them. (Watch your legs! You don't wanna trip.)


What if they charge? You can't possibly outrun them running backwards, and once one of them grabs your clothes, you're pretty much done for.

Quote:
There are "kill" moves but they aren't like in the movies. Strangle, very strong hit to the head causing neck to break, strong hit to the kidneys causing internal injuries etc.


Of course, but those are not the "desired" or "common" effects; You can kill someone by inflicting internal injuries, but most likely unintentionally (or intentionally by repeated bashing but its not a killing move, its just an ordinary murder). By killing moves, I meant stuff like "vibrating palm strike" or such - which of course dont exist.


Quote:
This might be the case. But we will never know, will we?


Thats why discussing shaolin monks, ninjas and bruce lee is pointless. They are either dead or hiding, even if we assume they have or had the "superhuman" abilities. They won't jump out of the bushes to kick your sorry butt, they won't teach you their styles, and what come from them is dead, forgotten or unavailable just like them. So, we can safely ignore it and focus at stuff we know/can test.

Quote:
Well this goes into the situational category. Never on a ready opponent. On a sligthly stunned one try a stlightly rounding, mostly straight kick to the head followed by a roundhouse that you set in motion with the one kick to the head before.


True. Those things can make an effective "finisher"

Quote:
The thing with these techniques is that doing them in a fight is nigh-impossible.


And thats the whole point of my rambling about chi, paralyzing moves and similar stuff. They are useless for a fighter. Even if you spent years practicing them, learned from those "unreachable masters" people speak about, you would still fail in a fight, because those things don't make good combat moves. period

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Nice thread, I don't have time to finish it now but I'll come back.

What does BJJ mean?


Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
you can get some basic info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu

Created by Helio and Carlos of the Gracie family, it became very popular throughout the world: contrary to dubious effectiveness of many martial arts, BJJ proved its usefulness, through "Gracie Challenge" when Gracie guys challenged martial artists of different styles and owned all of them, and by early UFCs, where BJJ guys clearly were the best fighters around (when people did not train mixed martial arts yet.)

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-just from casual training, I've increased my own speed hugely.  Not only in martial arts, I can train my muscles to move faster in other fields too, like playing musical instruments and swinging a tennis racket.


Placebo. You most likely increased your technique, which gave the "speed increase" effect. Its easy to confuse those two. Of course you can improve the speed of swinging a tennis racket, but this is something different. Don't get me wrong, if you strengthen your muscle, it will move faster, but not to an extent at which it becomes the most important thing there is. Reflexes and mind are much more important, imho. Whats so good in being fast if you lose your will to fight after getting hit once.. and whats the point of your body reacting fast if your mind can't utilize it

It's easy to reproduce the "increased speed" feeling. When you try punching while holding dumb-bells in your hands (don't do it, it hurts your joints!), you'll feel as if your hands were lighter and faster if you punch without them afterwards.

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There's a video you should watch called "Street Magic" by David Blaine.  Some amazing stuff, and about 70 percent of it is done by the simple fact that Blaine can move his hands faster your eye can see.


I am not saying some people aren't faster then others; I'm saying you can't change your innate speed much. It's our anatomy. The guy you speak about most likely was born with such talent.

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-Given the fact that Bruce Lee grew up street fighting in Hong Kong, and pretty much demolished anybody that picked a fight with him,


Against who, random skinny Hong Kong thugs? Sorry, I can pretty much own any thug that is my size and weight (and is unarmed) too. It's pretty easy to defeat people who don't train when you train yourself for a long time, if they dont have a huge weight advantage. Bruce had no documented MMA fights, so it's all based on assumptions.

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I find it strange that you would dismiss him as an "actor".  At this point I find his assertion that "speed is everything" a lot more credible than your assertion that "He wouldn't win a MMA cagefight."


A random MMA fighter would completely demolish him - I mean, the Bruce Lee of that time. MMA proves that. There is no place for skinny traditional martial artists there, my friend. Watch early UFCs. They tried. Lots of them. They all got owned. Of course, as I said, Bruce was open to new stuff, so if he lived today, he would most likely train some MMA style (or create his own MMA style). In his weight category, it would be possible for him to dominate, of that I am sure.

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(Also, given that his entire style consisted of absorbing elements from different fighting styles, I'd be highly surprised if he hadn't dealt with grappling at some point in his life.)


He did, it was pretty basic but he did. As I said, times changed. The old Bruce would lose. The modern Bruce, if there was any, could be an excellent MMA figther. But again, those are just assumptions. We will never know and it will never happen, so its pretty pointless to discuss it.

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espen15
espen15


Famous Hero
posted August 04, 2008 01:53 PM

boxing is ok, but i like track training more(runs jumps)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 04, 2008 01:56 PM

One more thing - for those who want some traditional approach, but don't want to train the old, expired methods: try karate shidokan. Not much left of original karate but it's an excellent and complete MMA style.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted August 04, 2008 02:33 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 14:42, 04 Aug 2008.

Quote:
Exactly. It's pleasant to feel you are not a random wimp, even if in dire situation I'd rather run than fight, unless it would be necessary (and even then, I'd use the baton or pepper spray )
You can get pretty easily resistant to the spray. Scientific documentaries.... but those are fake too, right?

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As for the "old masters" : their myths are mostly urban legends and hollywood doing, and the "we can't fight in tournaments" thing is quite comfortable. You can't see them in action, so you can't bash the myth. And it goes on. Bah. Say what you want, I don't believe in any hollywood-ish "old masters". I believe in older people who dedicated their lives to martial arts, have insane skill and experience, but their bodies are failing (natural thing), so they can't really fight anymore, because they would most likely lose: they can pass their knowledge to younger guys, though, and so they do. Highly respectable people, but let's not exaggerate - they are no gods of combat.
I don't think you understand the concept in the "traditional" martial arts (well actually, boxing for me is no martial "art", but it seems people twist meanings just as they did with kung fu).

First of all, there is a very strong philosophy tied to each one. You don't have to know the history (necessarily) but the philosophy is important. Nowhere must you take pride in "OMG look how awesome I am!" as a real martial artist.

Most of what you say about "urban myths" is quite true if viewed from a normal youngster or punk's point of view. No matter how "awesome" it LOOKS, it doesn't matter. You can't become a true martial artist (again, not boxing) simply by wanting to become "awesome". This has several consequences:

1) you don't concentrate at the task and think about your own pride
2) you think it's some kind of "game"
3) you give up the first time you fail

Martial arts are no "game", they are more like a philosophy. If you doubt your abilities so quick, and want an easy way out (like most youngsters do) then you are not going to make any progress. You've halted yourself. "Doubt is one of the five mental poisons; it keeps you from finding what you seek."

Youngsters and people practicing martial arts solely for entertainment purposes are not martial artists. Period. You can't draw conclusions from them that every true martial artist is like that. Most masters do not even SEEK fights, even for entertainment. Traditional martial arts are about CONTROL of yourself, not about FIGHTING or ENTERTAINMENT. Of course people now have twisted meanings of it, including sport. However, people also think "hacker" now is the same as "cracker". I'd only wish people were to actually not twist old words and rather make up new ones to avoid confusion.

If you practice martial arts with your mind full of pride, or thinking only about the RESULT, rather than the situation, then you are NOT DOING IT PROPERLY. It is wrong to assume that just because you saw people doing it this way it means everyone does it that way. As Jet Li said:
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In terms of concentration, It is my belief that one shouldn't think about the end results of a competition. Thinking about what will happen if you win or what will happen if you lose will destroy your concentration.

This isn't to say that you shouldn't think about it at all, but the best time to focus on end results it is during your training. That's the time it can be most helpful. During competition, if you put too much emphasis on the result, it will adversely affect your performance. Once you are competing your focus should be only on the performance at hand. Do your best with the skill level you have already achieved.

For example, if you watch the best basketball players in the world, you'll see that they usually don't fall into the trap of focusing on the end result. They enjoy the moment. When they are shooting the ball, all their concentration is focused on the pure joy of jumping in the air and shooting the ball. They concentrate on the pleasure of releasing the ball from the tips of their fingers and having it arc up in the air; of feeling the floor beneath them as they land; of the perspiration on their brow and the breath in their lungs. Everything contributes to their enjoyment of the moment. They don't think about the consequences if they miss. They just enjoy the process.

This is true of most great athletes in any sport. It is usually the fans who get emotional about the results; it shouldn't be the players. The best players enjoy the moment; they don't think about how much money or glory they will garner by performing well, or what will happen if they blow it. Enjoyment is the key -- enjoyment of the process.
A master only fights when it is necessary. And that means usually to TRAIN his students, not to IMPRESS people that don't even KNOW what martial arts is about. Of course, no one is born with the knowledge, there is a difference between teaching and impressing. Why would a master fight for entertainment? If the people watching it DOUBT what martial arts are truly about: control, then their eyes (they see it in "action") are not going to change their mentality. That is, even if they will get rid of their doubt, they will STILL do it for entertainment. It is like a chain reaction. People ALWAYS crave for more. Most masters, on the other hand, accept to make documentaries about it, simply because that may TEACH people interested in the OVERALL philosophy, not IMPRESS them in a kind of "game". This is really hard for me to explain. If someone challenges you, do you think you have some kind of responsibility to "prove" to people that crave for entertainment or "awesomeness" or whatever? I mean, this is NOT going to make them 'change' on that level, they will actually try to go themselves and train -- but WRONGLY. This will actually be worse in the end. But most martial artists also believe in karma. If you beat up someone just to show how "awesome" you are, then you will face a greater wrath in the end, from that defeated's anger in his heart. What's the point in showing to "youngsters" that think "it's cool" your abilities? Remember that by doing so you also completely DESTROY whatever you have accomplished through your martial arts training, your whole life. It comes back to you. This also includes with guns. If you are a "gun artist" and want to show how "awesome" and shoot a few people who doubt your ability, what's the point, apart from ruining your philosophy and making those that only live for 'awesomeness' (opponents) pathetic. With karma it will come back to you.

Martial arts is not about entertainment. It's about controlling yourself. Just because you can use this to fight and kill doesn't mean you should train yourself FOR THAT purpose, and become "famous". Not to mention this contradicts their philosophy.

I know what I say above is hard for you to "believe". I'm not trying to impose anything. I'm only saying my opinion from my experiences. Yes, I have never seen "Street fights" with martial arts (not that they are made for that purpose). But I am confident in people around the globe that have practiced it and at least I have some "contacts" with them.

I'm not talking about youngsters. But about people like Jet Li and Seagal. Seagal wasn't even an actor initially, he DID open a school and he knows what he is talking about. He doesn't claim he is a combat god either. Of course, people can always come with doubts like "what if he is lying?" -- without any trust you are lost to your own experience. It may be the most correct one, but also limited as hell!

Should I assume China doesn't exist because I was never there, and most probably not anytime soon? I agree, there is a degree to which one must put up trust, but I get that feeling about some martial artists to which I (and many other people) have contacts. They not only talk about how awesome they are, they admit their limitations and are not ashamed of mentioning them or if someone outperforms them.

Of course they can always have a diabolical plan to make people believe in this "witchery", but personally I find it highly improbable. Call me whatever you like, I'm not saying you should be the same. I'm only expressing my opinion.

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About that Kendo story, sorry, I don't believe a single word in it, and there is no reason why I should believe in it anyway. I can tell that my opponent, 124-year old sensei turned super sayian and owned be, and swear it is true.. would you believe it? Sorry, but its as real as the "chi block"..
1) Who said "chi block" (or ki block whatever) isn't 'real'? Because you didn't see anyone personally or a video? But let's be honest, if you were to see a video, you would most likely say it's fake, right?

Now you can believe your own experience, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. However do keep in mind that you may not ever encounter a true martial artist. There is a limit of degree what to believe, and of course I'm not telling you what you should believe. But limiting yourself only to your experiences may be correct, but also limited.

You can't "play" with martial arts. It is not a game. It's about controlling yourself. Just because this implies you can also fight doesn't mean that's the target you must follow when training.

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What if they charge? You can't possibly outrun them running backwards, and once one of them grabs your clothes, you're pretty much done for.
I don't know much about, but I think you're making too much theory crafting. Don't get me wrong, you can go ahead and do this right now -- that doesn't mean you are a true martial artist or anything. Some people can be "done for", it depends also on opponents. Most likely, neither you or me have 'witnessed' such a thing, so while I admit movies always exaggerate, it also applies the other way around.

Someone also mentioned the same thing in this thread without actually having experience. I'm not saying it's wrong, but as someone replied:
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my martial arts friends tell me that it's actually very difficult to attack somebody more than two at a time.  It can be done, but apparently you really have to know what you're doing for it to be effective and even if you're extraordinarily skilled its apparently virtually impossible to attack somebody with more than 4 people at a time.





I hope I have not lost you with this huge post. Just to take a break from quote wars for a change.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted August 04, 2008 02:48 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 14:50, 04 Aug 2008.

Some more interesting stuff:

Hypnosis
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As an example, if you give some men a brick and ask them to hold it at arm's length for as long as they can, they will be able to do it for about five minutes. But if you hypnotize them, they will hold the brick out for 15-20 minutes. That result favors the idea that hypnotism creates a unique state of mind.

However, if you tell males that some females who were just tested held the brick out for 20 minutes, they, too, will hold it for that long without being hypnotized. That result favors a suggestibility, or role-playing explanation.


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Does changing a brain by hypnosis mean hypnotizables can gain more control over what are normally involuntary functions of the brain responses to stress, regulation of hormones, control of the immune system, for instance? Maybe. David Spiegel of Stanford University School of Medicine, who collaborated on the color experiments, is interested in the possibility of bolstering the body's defenses against disease by psychological means that might include hypnosis. Evidence exists that strengthening these defenses may reduce the rate of growth of cancer tumor.
But of course "evidence" can only go to a certain limit...
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
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