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Fauch
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posted March 24, 2010 09:17 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:23, 24 Mar 2010.
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but we think a lot more when we're unhappy, so we grow in unhappiness
no, it's because you think about things that make you unhappy
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because you are lying to yourself, and limiting yourself to please other people
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We always do this, it's not a bad thing.
you can prove it?
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But imagine there being no such environment in their mind. They can't risk losing their current one, if there isn't. better to be content than risk losing it all for being satisfied and/ or happy.
actually, that's probably one of the reason why so many people are unhappy. they aren't satisfied with their situation, but they fear losing their advantages so much that they do nothing. it's a vicious circle, the more you cling to those "advantages" the more you become unhappy.
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This is exactly the opposite of the psychology I have learned. people are born as small, insignificant little snows and they know it! they know that all thos egiants could easily crush them. they know those giants are a lot smarter than them and they know they are entirely dependant on these giants to stay alive, so humans are born submissive, thinking everyone other than themselves higher than themelves. You are right, society is conditioning the child, but the child will gladly swallow all that. He won't resist. Why? Because the child knows its lesser than everyone around him.
yeah, a baby is physically weak and very dependant, but that doesn't mean he is less smart. those "giants" aren't necessarily smart, they just act in the way the society expect them to act, which has nothing to do with smartness.
btw, the psychology I'm talking about isn't the psychology you are talking about, but more the oriental psychology I suppose.
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Unlearning all you've learned is weak by the way. The most important thing to do in order to grow up is for the person to reconcile his basic wants with his basic values and accept them to be a part of him. Do you follow?
huh what?
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 09:25 PM |
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Better something tha nothing in their minds. better some bread and water than risk getting killed, while trying to acquire some venison.
And, well, does it require proof? We always limit ourselves to fit into society. It has advantages other than the accpetance of others, sure, but we all abide to the set morals and the laws and etiquette and rules of politeness and friendliness. We are restricted thus and that is not bad.
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mvassilev
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posted March 24, 2010 09:25 PM |
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It's both. Children are born dependent on their parents and easily influenced by them. But they're also born with a healthy attitude towards themselves. It is society that teaches people that they should sacrifice themselves for others, etc.
Fauch:
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actually we have always been dependent on other people, the current problem is that the society tend to deny that and value individualism.
How is valuing individualism denying dependence on other people?
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JollyJoker
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posted March 24, 2010 09:26 PM |
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Ah, nope.
Children, when born, have no idea about social interaction, and they don't rate themselves in comparison with others. Social interaction is what they learn, and what they learn as well is their position in comparison to others.
Children learn a lot of bull, that's for sure.
One thing you learn is that you somehow need the attention and acknowledgement of others.
Well, you don't.
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ohforfsake
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posted March 24, 2010 09:29 PM |
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but we think a lot more when we're unhappy, so we grow in unhappiness. When are we unhappy? When we lose things!
Some might, I honestly don't think it's a general true statement though. I personally think much better when I sit in front of the computer and are writing down my thoughts. If anything, I'd guess it's due to habit and not that some emotions are closer linked to getting ideas than others, as that'd probably diverge a lot from person to person, depending on how they, i.e. their habits.
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(the reasoning is that if the person can't be happy in his own way (subnormal) they try to make him happy in a regular way (so they try to average his thoughts out, which is for the better if the person is happy with his current thoughts to the point that it disables him)
I don't understand why happiness matters so much, is it not also just a feeling that randomly triggers an emotion (the power of the feeling)?
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You can't be absolutely free, if your world is just narrowed down to what you want, now can you?
I'd think so, but I might be misunderstanding you, so why not? 
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But imagine there being no such environment in their mind. They can't risk losing their current one, if there isn't. better to be content than risk losing it all for being satisfied and/ or happy.
I don't understand why happiness matters so much, I thought it was about doing what you want, not getting emotional satisfaction. My point is, if you don't do what you want, then it doesn't matter much how you don't do what you want, the only difference are the emotional response, which in the first place shouldn't matter much in my opinion as anything except maybe an inspiration.
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they know that all thos egiants could easily crush them. they know those giants are a lot smarter than them and they know they are entirely dependant on these giants to stay alive, so humans are born submissive, thinking everyone other than themselves higher than themelves.
Again, my memory may serve me wrong, but if not, I think what you've learned in this regard is certainly not true for me! 
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By the way society is today, in most countries, yes I agree, we're sadly very dependent on eachother.
actually we have always been dependent on other people
I think you read me wrong there, because I just wanted to say, that's true we're more dependent of eachother currently, than what I'd like, not that we haven't always been (actually it was probably a lot worse earlier in time, at least for some places in the world).
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value individualism.
Probably depends on how you mean it, but to me, valuing the individual is a good thing. In my country, it often seem like it's the individual that exists for the state, and not the state for the individual, in the eyes of many politicians, which I think is the wrong way to look at it.
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A newly born baby will accept himself unconditionally for who he is, but that's the society, the environment, the parents, who, by telling him how to act will condition him in a way that he won't accept himself for who he is.
hence that sentence : "you must unlearn all you've learned"
That does seem a lot like how I percieve the world of back then through my memory. Though, as very young, I was also very easy to influence, I think conditioning people against their will gets harder and harder as time goes, likewise I have an idea, that many becomes more and more closed minded. I would guess it is because of such a large degree of conditioning that one might could call it brain washing to a degree that people no longer will be able to see any argument that goes against their belief as rational.
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The most important thing to do in order to grow up is for the person to reconcile his basic wants with his basic values and accept them to be a part of him. Do you follow?
I don't follow, because I'm not certain how you define the terms wants and values, for me they could very well be the same.
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 09:30 PM |
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Children learn a lot of bull, that's for sure.
One thing you learn is that you somehow need the attention and acknowledgement of others.
Well, you don't.
This is a point where we can't reconcile then. I think it's a part of our hardware (social behaviour is not software, it's part of all of us and the ones who don't have that part are autistic and the ones who have that part destroyed are sociopaths in my mind), whileyou think it's a part of our software (social behaviour is something that is acquired). Children tht don't get any attention or affection from birth DIE. When children aren't loved at all they grow unhealthily in ways that has nothing to do with diet. They seem starved, yet they aren't.
It's a very real and basic necessity, almost akin to food and water.
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 09:30 PM |
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Children learn a lot of bull, that's for sure.
One thing you learn is that you somehow need the attention and acknowledgement of others.
Well, you don't.
brilliant 
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Fauch
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posted March 24, 2010 09:32 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:39, 24 Mar 2010.
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yeah, look at children, do they care about what people think of them?
do you often see adults acting like children in public?
you will argue that it is better for anyone if we don't act like children, but will someone who hasn't been influenced make use of people, or harm them to reach selfish, egoist goals?
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Probably depends on how you mean it, but to me, valuing the individual is a good thing. In my country, it often seem like it's the individual that exists for the state, and not the state for the individual, in the eyes of many politicians, which I think is the wrong way to look at it.
the individual who exist for the state, or for the people at the head of the state? in which case it is clearly individualism.
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That does seem a lot like how I percieve the world of back then through my memory. Though, as very young, I was also very easy to influence, I think conditioning people against their will gets harder and harder as time goes, likewise I have an idea, that many becomes more and more closed minded. I would guess it is because of such a large degree of conditioning that one might could call it brain washing to a degree that people no longer will be able to see any argument that goes against their belief as rational.
yes.
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I think conditioning people against their will gets harder and harder as time goes
as well as deconditioning them.
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 09:35 PM |
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God damn you romanticists!
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 09:36 PM |
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We won again? 
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ohforfsake
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posted March 24, 2010 09:46 PM |
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God damn you romanticists!
What do you mean by this?
Also, when you write we limit ourselfs to fit into society, I think it is important to seperate the unnecessary limitation with the necessary.
When someone with higher power forces you to abide to some given system, you don't have much choice, so there's not much of an argument there, stuff like the law, paying taxes, etc.
However I thought this debate were about when people limited themself unnecessarily, when it is about what others may think about them, etc. and not when they're forced by anyone, but their own limiting feelings and their powerful rewarding emotions.
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 09:51 PM |
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Oh, please, there is no winner in these things. I just felt like saying that.
Now, let's continue with the fun and games. Though, I don't think we're heading anywhere.
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I don't understand why happiness matters so much, is it not also just a feeling that randomly triggers an emotion (the power of the feeling)?
happiness is the ultimate goal here. I doubt you're so stoic to think that whatever you feel doesn't matter.
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You can't be absolutely free, if your world is just narrowed down to what you want, now can you?
You can't see things from a bigger perspective and you will only move to achieve these goals, so, yes, you are tied by your own personal desires. Not that it's a bad thing, mind.
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I don't follow, because I'm not certain how you define the terms wants and values, for me they could very well be the same.
Wants are the irrational little things you want to do, fun and games, values are the things you acquired from your parents and mentors during the first thee to five years of your life (yes, that's when you acquire them).
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I don't understand why happiness matters so much, I thought it was about doing what you want, not getting emotional satisfaction. My point is, if you don't do what you want, then it doesn't matter much how you don't do what you want, the only difference are the emotional response, which in the first place shouldn't matter much in my opinion as anything except maybe an inspiration.
Doing what you want usually brings happiness, does it not? Why else would you do it? The rest is too abstract for me to understand.
The things you remember differently: wow, you remember being born? In fact, wow you remember the first three years of your life?
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Some might, I honestly don't think it's a general true statement though. I personally think much better when I sit in front of the computer and are writing down my thoughts. If anything, I'd guess it's due to habit and not that some emotions are closer linked to getting ideas than others, as that'd probably diverge a lot from person to person, depending on how they, i.e. their habits.
Well, do you reevaluate yourself or force yourself to advance when you're sitting there? I doubt it. I think this only occurs when you are unhappy.
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 09:55 PM |
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What do you mean by this?
You're all romanticists! Children are the best! Love should be self-sacrificial! Emotions over ratio! Nature imagery! And your sonnets! GRAAAAAGH!
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Also, when you write we limit ourselfs to fit into society, I think it is important to seperate the unnecessary limitation with the necessary.
I think the human subconcious mind does not make this distinction.
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ohforfsake
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posted March 24, 2010 10:08 PM |
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Thanks for replying to my post(s) I'll try to make it short:
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I doubt you're so stoic to think that whatever you feel doesn't matter.
Well that's one principle I try to live by, except I do take feelings as inspirations when it's that time and place.
Also, I'm not certain of the word stoic, in the dictionary, it says unaffected, I'm not unaffected, but I try to be.
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You can't see things from a bigger perspective and you will only move to achieve these goals, so, yes, you are tied by your own personal desires.
This reasoning confuses me. Maybe if you could come with an example, because as I see it:
1) Goals should not be developed from desires, but from wants. Wants can be inspired from desires, but can't be developed from them, by the way I define it. (It's basicly seperating what is rational and what is irrational, which again will differ from person to person from time to time).
2) I don't see how one looses the bigger perspective when following ones goals?
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Wants are the irrational little things you want to do, fun and games, values are the things you acquired from your parents and mentors during the first thee to five years of your life (yes, that's when you acquire them).
Okay, then we've been using the terms very differently!
I've reading your word desire, as the way you just described wants.
Still not certain about values though, one probably acquires several properties from the environment around that time of ones life.
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Doing what you want usually brings happiness, does it not? Why else would you do it? The rest is too abstract for me to understand.
I think it's because you read it as when I use the word want, that I had used what I would use for desire/lust.
I use want as the rational, I could explain how I have come forward to what I want, which I believe is independent of feelings (desires), but I don't think it'd bring much to the talk.
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The things you remember differently: wow, you remember being born? In fact, wow you remember the first three years of your life?
No, I didn't understand the period you were talking about were only that stage, I honestly remember nothing from before I was 3 (and many don't from before they were 2). I can't even say if I was consciouss back then. I thought I could use the time all up to 8 years (which is what I believe I have described, though not completely certain about what you replied to there).
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Well, do you reevaluate yourself or force yourself to advance when you're sitting there? I doubt it. I think this only occurs when you are unhappy.
I believe I have advanced a lot during the last year of my life, due to me having that habit, I've made it closer defined what it exactly is I want, and how to obtain it, etc.
Not that I didn't know what I wanted earlier, but if someone had asked me more deeply in to it, I'd have a much harder time reasoning about it, probably would have said stuff I later would find out I didn't mean, etc.
I remember I once believed in the nanny state, I don't anymore, as I think the idea of freedom only to the limit of not limiting the freedom of others is very useable in coparision to my wants.
(Sorry for not defining freedom.)
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Children are the best!
I only think people are argumenting, that children are in some way more mature than adult, and in others not as much.
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Love should be self-sacrificial!
That seems rational to me.
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Emotions over ratio!
Does ratio mean rationality? Because I don't think anyone is argumenting for that, rather the opposite? That we should not be controlled by our emotions, but think for ourselfs and do what we want. That was why I reacted to your post in the first place, because it seemed like you wrote that we'd give in to others expectations (which basicly are giving in to emotions over rationality, also I don't think it is seperateable the act of doing something, because someone, or something tells one to do, which makes following a person for irrational reason, equivalent to follow emotions, or any kind of irrational drifts).
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I think the human subconcious mind does not make this distinction.
But does it matter, and if so, why? I think I agree, that it doesn't, and if anything, I believe that provides us a tool of self conditioning, which is a way to make it easier to get what you want.
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 10:19 PM |
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Children have that awesome way of perceiving emotions that we gradually lose as we grow up. Reverting the process would actually bring happiness to many bitter people, I think...
... also in relationships...
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ohforfsake
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posted March 24, 2010 10:21 PM |
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Reverting the process would actually bring happiness to many bitter people, I think...
... also in relationships...
I think it probably would, and if that's what one wants, then piece be with it. To me it just seems hollow to be so focused on happiness.
Edit: Which kinda shows how different I am probably, as I come from a country where people seem very emotional, in my opinion, very fixated on that they're according to "measurements" the happiest people in the world, likes to brag, and often focus on making Denmark famous.
Trends, that I do know about / have experienced being affected by, but don't see as positive.
Edit: I hit my limit of 20 posts outside VW for today, see you guys in two weeks time!
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 10:29 PM |
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If you're not happy, it's kinda hard to move on to do anything constructive.
It's like, you can't do **** when you're hungry or tired.
Basic needs. I don't think we should fight it to that point, we're not that awesome beings to try to combat what we are made of.
We just need to be happy. More or less.
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mvassilev
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posted March 24, 2010 10:31 PM |
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Ohforfsake:
There's nothing rational about self-sacrifice.
Fauch:
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yeah, look at children, do they care about what people think of them?
Yes, very much so. At first, they're very heavily influenced by their parents, then by peers...
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DagothGares
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posted March 24, 2010 11:00 PM |
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No, I didn't understand the period you were talking about were only that stage, I honestly remember nothing from before I was 3 (and many don't from before they were 2). I can't even say if I was consciouss back then. I thought I could use the time all up to 8 years (which is what I believe I have described, though not completely certain about what you replied to there).
To be honest, the period is unspecified. The subconscious feeling of having lower worth is there until the person "grows up", which differs from person to person. You are still pretty safe when you say that many tweens still have a feeling of lower worth or aren't confident in themselves. Though, I described the vision of a very small infant concerning adults and many can't remember that, but a child knows its dependant on its parents for nourishment and other things, which makes the child a tad submissive and that feeling suually lingers. Most children will do what they can to feel accepted by their parents, other children will do what they can to be noticed by them, wich is a form of acceptance.
Do you follow a bit?
A child needs to be accepted in one way or another as a social animal.
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Well that's one principle I try to live by, except I do take feelings as inspirations when it's that time and place.
Also, I'm not certain of the word stoic, in the dictionary, it says unaffected, I'm not unaffected, but I try to be.
Stoicism is a school of thought that says that the best thing a human can achieve is a state of "being untouchable" (prohaeresis), so they think it's best to be untouched by your emotions and live by higher values.
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This reasoning confuses me. Maybe if you could come with an example, because as I see it:
1) Goals should not be developed from desires, but from wants. Wants can be inspired from desires, but can't be developed from them, by the way I define it. (It's basicly seperating what is rational and what is irrational, which again will differ from person to person from time to time).
2) I don't see how one looses the bigger perspective when following ones goals?
I see desires and wants as the same. I think there's a part of the human mind that just wants things. the irrational part say. Let's call this irrational part the inner child. Partly we are subject to this inner child that wants to do things which may or may not be good or detrimental to us later on. The restrictiondswe put ourselves on is called the inner parent. it originates from the values our parents taught us when we were very young. Inside us, there is a third person and I think this person harbours what you called "a want". The person is the inner adult, which is the most rational part of ourselves.
In order to grow up, our inner adult needs to reconcile the inner child and the inner parent. The inner adult can also have rational desires and ambitions, which usually are much better goals than thos eof the inner chidl. Though, the inner child should not be neglected. It makes humans playful, which is good and fun and I hae nothing against it. Now, we are not free, because we have to pursue what makes us happiness, right? or whe try to.
It's a bit like the discussion about detemrinism. Everything is determined, because your free will is determined as well.
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Still not certain about values though, one probably acquires several properties from the environment around that time of ones life.
Yes, our inner adult can acquire other values and reason them to be necessary and he can also discard the values he has reasoned to be unnecessary. in fact, thi is usually very important in order to grow up, but the values that have been given to us by our parents in the time between birth and our fifth round around the sun are immovible. they are deeply rooted and only the inner adult can deal with them.
This is all according to my little manual, FYI.
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I believe I have advanced a lot during the last year of my life, due to me having that habit, I've made it closer defined what it exactly is I want, and how to obtain it, etc.
Not that I didn't know what I wanted earlier, but if someone had asked me more deeply in to it, I'd have a much harder time reasoning about it, probably would have said stuff I later would find out I didn't mean, etc.
I remember I once believed in the nanny state, I don't anymore, as I think the idea of freedom only to the limit of not limiting the freedom of others is very useable in comparison to my wants.
Well, these are very abstract things. How about the values and thing that apply to your life?
I think the inner adult is triggered out of a feeling of unhappiness, so in a way, unhappiness is required of us in order to grow. Something which we call our "angst period".
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I only think people are argumenting, that children are in some way more mature than adult, and in others not as much.
I respectfully disagree, here. Children just don't have to take as much responsbility and know more of their behaviour is socially acceptable.
and love being self-sacrificial, well...
there's this poet who said something about that once:
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The difficult part of love
Is being selfish enough,
Is having the blind persistence
To upset an existence
Just for your own sake.
What cheek it must take.
And then the unselfish side --
How can you be satisfied,
Putting someone else first
So that you come out worst?
My life is for me.
As well ignore gravity.
Still, vicious or virtuous,
Love suits most of us.
Only the bleeder found
Selfish this wrong way round
Is ever wholly rebuffed,
And he will get stuffed.
It's hard to reconcile the two views.
Anyway, love is in fact neither. Love is just trying to find acceptance and accepting the other.
I used to think it was impossible to define love. Life sure is strange...
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If you're not happy, it's kinda hard to move on to do anything constructive.
It's like, you can't do **** when you're hungry or tired.
Actually, you try to acquire food when you're hungry and you try to sleep when you're tired. you only try to better yourself when your current situation is no good.
Most artists function best when unhappy as well. That's why Kentaro Miura can't have any friends!
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Does ratio mean rationality? Because I don't think anyone is argumenting for that, rather the opposite? That we should not be controlled by our emotions, but think for ourselfs and do what we want. That was why I reacted to your post in the first place, because it seemed like you wrote that we'd give in to others expectations (which basicly are giving in to emotions over rationality, also I don't think it is seperateable the act of doing something, because someone, or something tells one to do, which makes following a person for irrational reason, equivalent to follow emotions, or any kind of irrational drifts).
It's not entirely emotional, nor is it entirely rational. Becaus ethe person's perception is coloured by emtion, they think they act rational and maybe they do. Who knows?
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But does it matter, and if so, why? I think I agree, that it doesn't, and if anything, I believe that provides us a tool of self conditioning, which is a way to make it easier to get what you want.
I define everything from the percepion of our minds; Remembe rthe subconscious is the iceberg of which we can only see the tip
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Fauch
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posted March 25, 2010 02:38 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 03:05, 25 Mar 2010.
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Fauch:
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yeah, look at children, do they care about what people think of them?
Yes, very much so. At first, they're very heavily influenced by their parents, then by peers...
well... I meant they are very spontaneous, unlike most adults.
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I see desires and wants as the same. I think there's a part of the human mind that just wants things. the irrational part say. Let's call this irrational part the inner child. Partly we are subject to this inner child that wants to do things which may or may not be good or detrimental to us later on. The restrictiondswe put ourselves on is called the inner parent. it originates from the values our parents taught us when we were very young. Inside us, there is a third person and I think this person harbours what you called "a want". The person is the inner adult, which is the most rational part of ourselves.
In order to grow up, our inner adult needs to reconcile the inner child and the inner parent. The inner adult can also have rational desires and ambitions, which usually are much better goals than thos eof the inner chidl. Though, the inner child should not be neglected. It makes humans playful, which is good and fun and I hae nothing against it. Now, we are not free, because we have to pursue what makes us happiness, right? or whe try to.
as I see it, there is the consciousness and the ego.
the consciousness is who you really are and it is here from the start. the ego doesn't exist at the start, it is built out of all the bullsnow you learn during your life and most of the time it defines how you and other people define yourself. it is like a screen of smoke which prevents you and the other from seeing who you really are.
you don't have to learn the morale values, the consciousness already knows them. but often, the ego won't let you question your consciousness (whereas it is actually pretty easy, you just have to say no to your ego like you would say no to someone)
actually, we think we are learning values, because we have learned so much bullsnow that they ended up burried under all that bullsnow...
"A king wanted to know what is the most important thing to do. Lots of people tried to answer but he was unsatisfied with all the answers. Someone advised him to go ask the wisest man of the country.
So the king travelled to meet that man, who told him :
-the most important thing is to do the good. Do not do the bad.
The king was really angry to have travelled so far to hear something that obvious.
-Even a 3 years old child would know that...
and the wise man answered :
-yes, of course, but we tend to forget it when we grow older"
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