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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: What is Love?
Thread: What is Love? This Popular Thread is 225 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 ... 184 185 186 187 188 ... 210 225 · «PREV / NEXT»
Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted September 16, 2013 08:18 PM

You make her sound too "good" (subjective) to be true.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 08:24 PM

She seems that way, doesn't she? And yet she's as I describe.
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Eccentric Opinion

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 16, 2013 08:25 PM

Quote:
I know polyamory can seem weird - it seemed strange to me when I first learned about it - but it's good for some people.

I don't have a condescending attitude towards polyamory by default. I just think the way you defend it is based on too much rationality while human behavior and especially romantic relationships are usually not based on rationality. You can only deal with your emotions if you acknowledge them, while what you only seem to do here is arriving at logical conclusions. That looks quite noobish to me. If we were totally logical and rational creatures, there wouldn't be so much war and suffering and BS in this world in the first place now, would there?

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted September 16, 2013 08:28 PM
Edited by Adrius at 20:29, 16 Sep 2013.

I honestly believe Mvass can just logic himself out of any emotional problem he encounters in this world. I think he can just reason his brain and reprogram himself in real time based on input to achieve maximum pleasure output.

He's a machine, a love machine.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 08:48 PM

artu:
Different people have different levels of rationality. They're all capable of being rational (unless they're brain-damaged), but because of how they're raised, cultural factors, etc, they may not be as rational as they should be. Anyway, rationality is something to strive for, and irrationality is not something to be excused.
I do acknowledge my emotions. In the rare occasions when I feel one that is incongruous with what I want, I face it and eliminate it.
I think you underestimate how rational romantic relationships can be.
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Eccentric Opinion

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 16, 2013 08:52 PM

Quote:
Anyway, rationality is something to strive for, and irrationality is not something to be excused.
I do acknowledge my emotions. In the rare occasions when I feel one that is incongruous with what I want, I face it and eliminate it.

Sounds like some prep-talk from a high-ranking security officer in some distopian future civilization on a sci-fi novel.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 16, 2013 09:02 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:07, 16 Sep 2013.

Meroe rises up a good point however. Unless it's an orgy, you can't have sex with two people in different places. You have to choose.

If she chooses her "girlfriend" instead of you, mvass, don't you wonder why?

The time she's having, uh "sexual fun" with "another guy" she could as well be having that with you.

And don't give me the usual "we need change sometimes" bull. We all know that we need change only if boredom strikes. And if it does, it's not a good sign. Why would I pick an "inferior" sexual partner to have a night with if I have a commited, "primary" (as you put it) one? Because I'm bored with her for a while, that's the only answer that logically comes to mind.

I can understand you being devoid of jealousy and feeling no need for sexual commitment, but you gotta understand that this is way ****ing weird and emotionally impossible to grasp for us.

I'd plan a future with you too, btw (if I were a girl that doesn't understand commitment). Any promiscuous girl would. You're like a dream come true - they can "cheat on you" legally with your consent and you'll be even happy for them, lol. No offense, big guy, but a word "sucker" comes to mind. I really hope to not offend you with that, but that was my first thought. Don't get pissed
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 09:14 PM

artu:
If you don't like the word "eliminate" when applied to emotions, which is understandable, perhaps an example would be helpful. Here's one not related to romantic relationships. Suppose you're trying to help someone learn something, and you really want them to know it, but they're being slow. You may become frustrated, but despite that, you still want to help them because them learning it is important. Then, upon examining your emotion of frustration, you realize that it's incongruous with what you want, so you take several deep breaths, focus on your goal, say "I shouldn't be frustrated, it isn't helpful to my goal of teaching [person]", and hopefully your frustration will be gone, or at least lessened.
Or consider an example that is applicable to romantic relationships. Suppose you feel jealous of your partner spending a lot of time with someone else. Rather than being like, "I'm jealous, she should stop!", you should face your jealousy and figure out what's wrong. Is it that you're worried that she'd leave you? If so, stop here and deal with your problems, if not, move on to the next question. Is it that you're not getting enough time with her? If so, talk to her about it and try to convince her to spend more time with you, if not, move on to the next question. Is it that you're worried about exclusivity? If so, ask yourself what's so important about it if you're getting enough time with her and aren't worried about her leaving, if not, move on to the next question... Eventually, you'll go through all of your potential objections. Perhaps at some point you'll find the cause of your jealousy and be able to deal with it head-on. Otherwise, once you analyze everything that's relevant and realize that there's no reason for you to feel jealous, you should feel that emotion weakening, and, with some encouragement, disappearing altogether.

DF:
That's true, but it doesn't really bother me. As long as we have a sexual relationship that satisfies both of us, it doesn't matter if she also seeks out other people. It's not like she's going to choose someone else over me all the time. If I wanted to have sex immediately, she wouldn't be like, "Nah, I'm going to go have sex with someone else". So it's not a "what if she chooses instead". The key thing here is that polyamory means "in addition to", rather than "instead". I have no problem with her wanting to have sex with other people instead of me on occasion. Even if it happens several times a week, that still leaves plenty of time for me. And anyway, eventually I'm going to have other partners too, so that'll work out even better then.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 16, 2013 09:24 PM

Interesting. I'd compare monogamy to eating a cookie. A really small, tasty one. Not only you feel better that it's "all yours" (a sense of exclusiveness), but also, you don't have to taste other people's saliva when eating it (this can be referenced to both physical and mental hygiene - mental being the fact that the person you're having sex with shares those things only with you without the need to constantly compare you to others). Not your cup of tea, but it is a source of great pleasure if such act of "cookie eating" occurs for us monogamists. After all, we're greedy, jealous, and above all, we don't want to share, taking a lot of pleasure in that
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 09:24 PM

Mvass, I'm with you. It's the old hippie ideal, and with the right people it can work fine. When, if not in your youth, will you try out things and experiment?
A 2-people relationship isn't the holy grail per se; it has a lot to do with education and socialization, which is shown by anthropological studies.
Make sure, you are honest, and everything will work out fine - if you both stand behind it.
People are different, and what works for some, may not for others. We should accept that, instead judging things by our own standards.

In my opinion, if you WORK with someone creatively and productively, this is comparable with having sex as well, because it creates a certain relationship. If you can work well together with a colleague you do something outside of your relationship, that is important. Life isn't a 2-person thing, and sex doesn't have to be either. It gets more complicated when kids come into play, but that's just because our society is about individual parentage. There are also societies where children are "socialized".

Everyone has a right to try their own way to be happy, how unconventional it may be.

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 16, 2013 09:43 PM

Quote:
I love my girlfriend. If I didn't, it would be a close friendship, not a relationship. But feelings don't exclude logic, and logic doesn't exclude feelings - the two often go together very well.

I believe that you believe that. I'm just guessing that we feel love differently then apparently. I understand that this works for you  and I'm sort of happy for you but I don't think it's as easily rationalize able as you say.
If I love someone I have a burning desire to be with that person, I crave all intimacy I can have with my partner because I'm crazy about her (good kind of crazy, not mad stalker crazy). See this is the part where I don't understand you. You say you love her (and again I believe you, no reason not to obviously) but how can you be very passionate about someone and desire them more than anything while at the same time being like: "Yeah, if she feels like it she can totally make to Bianca/Bernhardt over there, that's cool after all I get to do Susie." ?!
I agree that feelings don't exclude logic or vice versa, but I don't see "it furthers our relationship since it's something we both want" as logic. To me that is rationalizing the situation.
I'm just under the impression that your whole relationship lacks this basic deep desire for one another. Atleast for me, that would be what always kept me from ever actually considering to cheat on someone, or make out let alone have sex with anyone beside my girlfriend.
I wouldn't be able to draw the line and say, I love my girlfriend but I don't feel commited enough to her/satisfied sexually so I'll see where I can get my share elsewhere.
Not to mention being ok with the thought of some #@!%ers touching let alone sleeping with my woman.

I don't really understand what makes your girlfriend stand out to you anymore as your girlfriend. Yeah you love her, but the only difference between her and any other girl you're gonna sleep with while in your "polyamorous" relationship is what exactly? You're more comfortable talking about your insecurities with her than with others? But to me that'd make her just a great friend you have sex with.


Blargh I'm beginning to repeat myself, if I sound judgmental I don't mean to be. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I genuinely don't understand how you can say "love someone" and "polyamorous" in the same sentence. See I'd sort of get it if you were actually in love with multiple people. But your set up is just your primary partner and you having more sex with each other on a regular basis than you do with everyone else your sleeping with (hopefully lol).
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted September 16, 2013 09:45 PM
Edited by meroe at 21:48, 16 Sep 2013.

Hahahaha hahahahha hhahha

Surely all this is a joke.  Hippy ideal.  Polyamorous relationships.  Maturity.  Devotion.

I've just realized that Mvass has totally taken us all for a ride with this.

I mean, what sounds nicer than a large group of people all having sex with each others partners like it a game of charades; passing on herpes and any other unsavoury sexual diseases.  Of course, share partners and share their diseases.  How 'evolved' and mature.  Not to mention hygienic.

I'm with DF on this one.  All the way.

I would rather be cherished and devoted to one person than wonder what my partner might be infecting me with.  Or was that the hippy ideal?




Well said Azzie


____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 09:57 PM

Why is this such a big deal for some?

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted September 16, 2013 09:58 PM

Maybe its a big deal because its a lie.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 16, 2013 10:01 PM
Edited by Azagal at 22:09, 16 Sep 2013.

Meroe darling, you know I love you, but if you could go a tiny bit easier on the judgement part that'd be cool. Not that I'm terribly concerned for mvassilev cause he's made of stone (even more so than I thought apparently (IN THE SENSE THAT YOU CAN TAKE WHATEVER PEOPLE TRHOW AT YOU, NOT SAYING YOU CANT LOVE LOL)) but I just really think you have some valuable input that is always very interesting (you always do on these subjects) and it's easier to get out of you when you've not already marked the opposition as a completely lost cause.

Also I find it very cool that mvass is sharing all this and is so open about it. Not that I understand or agree with a lot of what he's saying, but no big deal in this case I don't really have to understand. It's just interesting to hear.

"In the rare occasions when I feel one that is incongruous with what I want, I face it and eliminate it."
I think this helps me understand the whole thing more than anything said so far.



Oh also meroe I demand to know what dogging is for science. I know swinging but dogging? Wut?

@JJ
I might have been giving off the wrong vibe here, but it's not a big deal to me. It is that the concept is very strange to me and I want to try and understand it. I'm not trying to convince mvass to stop lol, or that my view of things is the correct one. I'm just curious and want to hear more about this mostly because my opinion is so very different from his, maybe I'll understand it eventually (I doubt it, but it's interesting to hear about nonetheless).
Afterall he's the one in the polyamorous relationship not me, if it makes him happy, good for him.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 16, 2013 10:03 PM

Quote:
Suppose you feel jealous of your partner spending a lot of time with someone else. Rather than being like, "I'm jealous, she should stop!", you should face your jealousy and figure out what's wrong.

Exactly. It doesn't even necessarily mean there's something wrong. (But in most cases it does.) The problem is, you don't sound like that, you sound like, if jealousy is illogical, I'll choose not to feel it. Now, let me ask you a question, suppose you break up with your girlfriend, (and there is no chance you're ever getting back together), you miss her, you feel miserable without her, life seems pointless, you're heartbroken... These are all useless, irrational feelings to have, since she's not going to come back and all you'll end up is being depressed. Can you simply eliminate those feelings? I don't think I can. And it's not about how strong your capability of rational thought is, it's about how deep your emotions are. I'm not saying anybody who is deeply in love will become an overjealous jerk, I'm saying while you're pointing to an equation, you only consider the density on one side of that equation: Yes some people are less rational and some people are more, but on the other hand there can be two equally rational people, but one having much stronger feelings or emotional depth. So, it's also about the emotional depth of people. (The poetry of 19th century Romantics can be read as a manifest to that, they were bored with the rising rationality of their Age, so they embraced nature with emotions instead of formulas. Unlike you, they didn't contemplate the irrational as a menace to eliminate, but as another dimension that rationality can't grasp).
Put jealousy aside,it's not the main issue. The way you talk about emotions shows it's you who's underestimating them, not me underestimating rationality. That's why you listen to (computer game) music, skipping tracks every two minutes and that's why you think some advanced Google can translate John Keats.

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted September 16, 2013 10:12 PM

I apologise Azzie.  I must stop acting like a rabid wolverine at times
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 16, 2013 10:22 PM

You rule Mvass
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Living time backwards

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 10:34 PM

DF:
A lot of people feel as you do, and if exclusivity is something from which they derive independent enjoyment - that is, even if they're secure, see enough of their partner, trust them, etc, and they still get an additional benefit from exclusivity - then polyamory isn't for them. Not everyone is like that, though. For me, there's no additional "good feeling" from exclusivity. Even if we were in a monogamous relationship, she'd still have friends to whom she'd be close and with whom she'd spend a lot of time, and I wouldn't object to that either, so polyamory doesn't feel that different. It's not for everyone, though.

JJ:
Thanks.
Though it's funny that you mention hippies, considering that the polyamorous people I know (including myself) are rather different from hippies. They're mostly very rational math/science/engineering-type people.

Azagal:
I don't know, perhaps we feel love differently. I see nothing incongruous between loving someone, taking care of them, wanting to spend your life with them, etc, and not minding them having sex and even romantic relationships with other people. It's similar to friendship - it's not like I'd ever feel anything like "If she spends time around other people, she'll make me feel less special! She shouldn't talk to Bianca/Bernard, she should only talk to MEEEE!!!" If anyone was that restrictive about their significant other having friends, they would be rightly seen as crazy and controlling. Most people aren't going to object to their girlfriend spending time with friends. If you can imagine it, that's roughly how I feel about her having other romantic relationships as well.

I'd never cheat on her. Yes, cheating is possible in a polyamorous relationship, because polyamory isn't necessarily a license to go out and have sex with whomever you want. Often, there are still some ground rules. In our case, in addition to the obvious ones (don't get STDs, don't get pregnant or get anyone pregnant), we have rules that require us to tell each other about things we're doing with other people when one of us starts something new, and we ask each other if it's okay - and the other can veto it if it's not okay. So, if I'm interested in someone who reciprocates my feelings, I can't just start a relationship without her knowing, I have to go to her and ask, "I'm interested in so-and-so, and she's interested in me. Would it be okay if we started a relationship?" And my girlfriend can say "Yes" or voice some kind of objection, in which case we'd talk about it. If, after a good open communicative conversation, she still doesn't feel comfortable with me starting this particular relationship, she can tell me "No", and that's that. Violating one of these rules would be cheating, and I don't want to cheat.

You ask what's different between her and any of my future secondaries. Here are some differences that come to mind:
- I feel closer and more devoted to her than I would be to a secondary.
- If there was some kind of logistical conflict between her and a secondary, I'd go with her. For example, if she wanted to spend more time with me, and I had to spend less time with a secondary to accommodate her desire, I would. Or, in a different scenario, if she wanted to move to a different city and a secondary wanted me to stay, I'd move.
- I want to marry her eventually. I wouldn't want to marry a secondary.
- I want to have a child with her at some point in the future. I wouldn't want to have a child with a secondary.
- We have veto power over each other's potential new relationships, as described above. Secondaries don't have veto power.
- Most generally, if there was some kind of irresolvable prioritizing issue between her and a secondary, she would be my primary priority.

Meroe:
If it's STDs you're worried about, that's not really a concern. We're not going to have sex with random strangers, only with people we trust. (Though even people who have sex with random strangers use protection and usually don't get STDs.)
I know this seems strange, but there's no need to be so dismissive. Just because we're polyamorous doesn't mean we love each other any less.

artu:
If my girlfriend broke up with me, it would take me some time to get rid of those feelings, but I eventually would. Most people get over their heartbreak in time, though I'd probably be faster than most. The thing is, rational people are better at arranging and navigating their feelings. You can experience the emotion of love very deeply and powerfully, and yet still be perfectly rational about it. I feel love deeply, but only when it would be appropriate for me to do so. My feelings aren't any weaker for me being able to identify their root causes and eliminate them, if necessary.
And I really don't see what skipping music and translating Keats with a computer has to do with any of this.

Ohforf:
Thanks.
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Eccentric Opinion

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2013 10:38 PM

mvassilev said:

JJ:
Thanks.
Though it's funny that you mention hippies, considering that the polyamorous people I know (including myself) are rather different from hippies. They're mostly very rational math/science/engineering-type people.


Aaaand that's what the hippies became, that did not OD or ended in Goa.

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