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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: What is Love?
Thread: What is Love? This Popular Thread is 225 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 ... 188 189 190 191 192 ... 210 225 · «PREV / NEXT»
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 03, 2013 08:56 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 21:48, 03 Dec 2013.

inexperienced pups deserve to be nipped

You give yourself an undeserved pat on the back--again.  You said, "Love at first sight is impossible." You made a bold statement and got karate chopped.  Now, if you'd said, "Love at first sight is impossible for me unless I'm looking at a stack of Ben Franklins, my stack of Ben Franklins I get to keep for myself and don't have to share with anyone else," I would have acknowledged your honesty and kept my mouth shut.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 03, 2013 08:58 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 20:59, 03 Dec 2013.

"Love at first sight" isn't love, it's infatuation. It's possible to be infatuated with someone, get into a relationship with them, and have that develop into real love - but in that case, you haven't been in love with them all along. If you define "love" as the feeling of "yeah, this person seems interesting and looks good", then love at first sight is possible, but that's not what it really means.
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 03, 2013 09:03 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 21:04, 03 Dec 2013.

That is your unenlightened, underinformed, and quite frankly ignorant opinion.  You are of course able to hold onto your obstinance but all it reinforces with me is your inability to be open to possibilities that belie your biases and prejudices.
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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 03, 2013 09:10 PM

from my experience, thoughts feed the obsession. in artu's example

Quote:

a)
- Man, I saw this hot chick last night looking at me but then there was this earthquake and we all went out, I lost her. snow happens. Whatever... Do you think I should call Jane?
b)
- I finally met the love of my life last night, I fell for her the second I saw her but now she's gone forever and I will miss her my entire life with a huge hole in my heart.


I think that guy b), by thinking this way, is making himself dependent on this girl. the more you think you need someone, imagine your future with her, etc, the more you actually become dependent on her.
stop imagining yourself with her, tell yourself you don't really need her, and I think it won't take too long before you wonder what the hell she is doing in your life.

I think that's why, as the article says, it can take years. that's like that propaganda strategy, where they repeat a lie until you firmly believe it is true.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 03, 2013 09:12 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 21:13, 03 Dec 2013.

I think artu's point was that b doesn't happen, and if "love at first sight" were actually possible, it would happen. He's exactly right. When you lose contact with someone you love, you feel great loss. But no one feels great loss from not seeing someone they met once for a brief period of time.
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Adrius
Adrius


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posted December 03, 2013 09:14 PM
Edited by Adrius at 21:15, 03 Dec 2013.

Seems kinda pointless to argue about whether someone experiences love "for real" at first sight or not. So insanely subjective.

"I feel something!"
"No you don't!"
"But, I do."
"No, you're feeling wrong."
"But-"
"WRONG!"
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Fauch
Fauch


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posted December 03, 2013 09:19 PM

well, I imply that the feeling of great loss for guy b) actually appears after the thought it was the girl of his life. otherwise he would probably have forgotten about her pretty quick.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 03, 2013 09:31 PM

Adrius said:
Seems kinda pointless to argue about whether someone experiences love "for real" at first sight or not.
It's not pointless, and as artu pointed out, it's something that can be determined. If someone feels great loss if they lose contact with someone they've just met, it was love, otherwise, it wasn't.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 03, 2013 09:35 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:36, 03 Dec 2013.

Gootch is like Gordon Ramsay of HC, period.

Myself? Nothing to report on love, but plenty of lack of it. Meh, that sucks, trust me. SOmetimes it's just better not to date people that are "Okay", so "okay" that you just want to strangle them. What an utter boredom...
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted December 03, 2013 09:42 PM
Edited by Adrius at 21:56, 03 Dec 2013.

But... how can you tell what someone is feeling and that it's incorrect? Innovator Mvass secretely pilots supa-Gundam with quantum brainwave enhancer, he knows your mind.

Urgh I don't even know. I just know that telling someone you know how they feel is among the most offensive **** possible cuz we're all individual and ****, and therefore have unique experiences, so who are you to tell me how I feel...? Projecting your experiences upon me.

And here's telling people you not only know what they feel, but also that it's - guess what - wroooong.

Good way to get punched in the face honestly
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 03, 2013 10:02 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 22:03, 03 Dec 2013.

Of course feelings can be wrong. Here's one example: suppose someone is an abusive relationship. Some guy beats a girl, verbally abuses her, etc. She still loves him. Is her feeling wrong? Of course. Here's another example: suppose you can't find your mp3 player on the subway and you think the person sitting next to you stole it. You get mad at them. Then you go home and find out that you left it in your desk. Your feelings of anger were wrong. Here's a third example: suppose you're trying to teach someone math, but they're being slow and it's frustrating you in a way that interferes with your effectiveness of teaching them. Is your feeling of frustration wrong? I would say that it is - it's natural, but that doesn't make it right. Finally, a fourth example: suppose a religious fundamentalist sees a gay couple holding hands, and he gets disgusted by it. Are his feelings wrong? Definitely.

Not only can feelings be wrong, they often are, for poorly calibrated people.
Quote:
I just know that telling someone you know how they feel is among the most offensive **** possible cuz we're all individual and ****, and therefore have unique experiences, so who are you to tell me how I feel...?
Who am I to tell you how you feel? Someone who has some idea of what the feeling is like. Even better, I can cause you to be introspective and realize that if losing contact with a person would only be a minor loss, it can't be love.

Feelings aren't sacred. Anything that can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 03, 2013 10:12 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 22:13, 03 Dec 2013.

Adrius raises a valid point.  Bringing an objectivist approach to a subjective conversaion is in my opinion unworkable.  

If you all agree with Artu that the metric by which these feelings can rightfully register as love is whether and how much you miss them when they are absent, I've a few things to say.

What I've experienced is consistent with what Artu outlined.
Yes, I have fallen in love at first sight.
Yes, I missed them greatly when we were separated and it hurt.  
No, I wasn't always single when I experienced it, and that was when I found out just how much a conscious choice monogamy was.  
Yes, I actually got to pursue a loving relationship with one of them and it was magnificient.
No, it has not happened often for me.  In fact, it has probably happened five or fewer times in my life.  Over the course of the last 25 years, I daresay it has been a rare occurrence for me.

Too often the lot of you serial hair-splitters have confused my declarations of love at first sight to be lust.  Let me reiterate what is the crux of my argument, and the part I thought might open up a more interesting and vigorous debate than what has come.

Love, I now believe, is the overarching ache I feel which I express as, "You come first in my life."  Not only do I believe that is how I best describe romantic love between consenting partners, but also in other ways such as the love a parent may feel for their children, the love a pastor feels for their parish, the love men have for each other when they say, "Bros before hos," or,"Pals before gals," the way someone may feel about an animal companion, the way an MMORPGer feels about their guild, et al.

Words are one thing.  It's easy to say these things.  How we act is far more important.  Who or what comes first in our lives?  I submit that is what we love.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 03, 2013 10:14 PM

So, to clarify, you've met someone, spent a few minutes with them, and were ready to put them first in your life?
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted December 03, 2013 10:16 PM

Mvass I think you missed the "feel" part of feelings.

It's like if I feel warm now, but then get cold later, that doesn't mean that me feeling warm earlier was wrong.

Feelings can be misguided, and you for example rationally making me feel different can make me change the way I relate to things and feel different, but that doesn't make what I felt earlier any less real.

Trying to make someone introspective with the outset that they're "feeling wrong" is going to end absolutely horribly.

Quote:
Feelings aren't sacred. Anything that can be destroyed by the truth should be.

What even is this? Are you a Bioshock villain?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted December 03, 2013 10:17 PM

Mvass, if you can't define love, how can you claim that love at first sight is impossible?
Now sure, if YOU define love as being 60 years together and still feel attracted, THEN you CALL that love, then obviously it wasn't of course at first sight per definition.
But it's you who defines, and it's you yet again who defines things the way you want them.

I would say with the same conviction, if LOVE is a very special feeling that's working on some kind of subconscious level - then it's a very strong reaction to a lot of information. WAY more information than those you register with your conscious brain.
In this case there would OF COURSE be love at first "sight". In fact, you might even say, if it WASN'T at first sight it either wasn't love, information exchange was somehow blocked or the subconscious working flawed.

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Ghost
Ghost


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Therefore I am
posted December 03, 2013 10:21 PM

Aha! Remember what? Notice

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


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Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 03, 2013 10:22 PM

mvassilev said:
So, to clarify, you've met someone, spent a few minutes with them, and were ready to put them first in your life?


This lets me know you did not bother to read the entirety of my contributions to this thread over the last month.  At best, you've skimmed them.  I'm not offended.  I've done the same with your lengthier posts over the last several years and will not have a double standard.

Suffice it to say I believe you and I speak a different language and will never be able to relate to each other.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted December 03, 2013 10:36 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 19:49, 12 Dec 2013.

Adrius:
Three points here -
First, people can be mistaken about what they're feeling - I refer you to artu's example. Even if love at first sight is sometimes possible, most of the time what's identified as love at first sight isn't love, because if someone wouldn't feel significant loss upon meeting someone and losing contact with them, it wasn't love to begin with.
Second, a feeling can be experienced but still be misguided. If a feeling goes away if rationally examined, it was a misguided feeling, so it is a case of "feeling wrong". In that case, they really are feeling what they think they're feeling, but their feelings aren't in line with reality (i.e. they wouldn't feel that way if they knew reality better). This is different from the above class of situations, so thank you for pointing this out.
Third, just because I think someone's feelings are wrong doesn't mean that I'm going to tell them that in those words. Simply being told that your feelings are wrong isn't convincing, but I do try to show them that they're wrong.
Quote:
What even is this? Are you a Bioshock villain?
MUAHAHAHAHA!!!
No, I'm just a rationalist. (And still haven't played Bioshock.)

JJ:
I can't define love, just like I can't define the feeling of seeing the color green, but I can pinpoint the experience in both cases, and say that the word refers to that. Sure, one can define the word "love" to mean something that can happen at first sight, but the point is that what one feels at first sight and what one feels once one gets to know a person are different feelings. You're free to call whichever one you want "love", but you should recognize that they're different.

Gootch:
From the same post:
Quote:
Yes, I have fallen in love at first sight.
Quote:
Love, I now believe, is the overarching ache I feel which I express as, "You come first in my life."
So that would mean that you've felt the feeling of "you come first in my life" at first sight.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted December 03, 2013 10:58 PM

Adrius said:
Trying to make someone introspective with the outset that they're "feeling wrong" is going to end absolutely horribly.

I totally get what you mean. But I'm not telling anybody what they are feeling is wrong, I'm just telling them, I'm not so sure I agree on the definition of that feeling. And I'm saying that what I usually see is this, the first contact eventually transforming into love is perceived as love at first sight when looking back retrospectively. And, although love is quite a subjective thing that many people define differently, I also point out that there are some VERY common denominators. Like, missing that person, feeling said if you lose her etc etc. So although people may never agree on what love exactly is, they can still agree on what it is not, using those denominators or their absence. So, this is not where we are at:
JJ said:
if you can't define love, how can you claim that love at first sight is impossible?

I can relate to falling in a very short period of time, like weeks or even days if they were spent massively together. But falling in love at first sight seems like pushing the limits of what we "define" or at least perceive as real love. (It's a catchy and fantastic slogan though, I'll admit to that).

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 04, 2013 12:16 AM

If you take the phrase literally, to only see someone, then I agree with mvass that it is impossible. You don't know the person at all and what you love is an illusion. Basically you will be loving a fabricated person, and some are tempted to call that love as well. But I personally feel that to love is to love a person. That is the real deal.

So if you broaden the definition of "love at first sight" a little bit so that you have smelled, heard, touched, talked to the other person... even if it was once... Then there is no doubt you can fall in love! Sometimes it is for keeps, sometimes not. Love doesn't have to last a lifetime for it to be real.
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