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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2013 11:01 PM |
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Letting go and not overthinking things are relaxation, which can certainly be part of a rational person's goals. Being rational doesn't mean worrying about things all the time - that's tiring and often unhelpful. Being rational doesn't mean thinking "HOW CAN I MAXIMIZE MY PREFERENCES?" every second and letting it stress you out. You don't have to constantly reevaluate whether you're acting optimally as long as your preferences don't change - and when they change, you can usually feel it. I don't know how best to describe the rational decisionmaking process to you, but I don't exhaust myself questioning everything I do all the time - and that doesn't make me any less rational. What's important is to set yourself on the right path, and reevaluate when something changes. I hope that explanation makes sense.
Also, while overthinking things is stressful, often, optimizing is enjoyable. Thinking about how things could be better, and then taking some action to make them that way - depending on the area, it can be quite fun.Quote:
it may very well be you who lacks passion
But I don't lack passion. I experience emotions strongly, but that doesn't prevent me from being rational about them.
But to reject being rational all the time is like saying "I don't want to know how I can get the most of what I want".
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2013 11:43 PM |
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Thank you for your generosity Mvass, but I happen to think I've made quite a few rational decisions myself and I can picture the process without your description. I'm not talking about stressing yourself every second either, as I mentioned earlier some people prefer spontaneous to flawless, it's a general preference rather than this or that minute. I am not carrying your idea to a point of ridicule. I dont know what you mean by reject being rational all the time but the context is relationships based on irrational (or at least not necessarily rational) foundations. Things that are considered painful, unstable, risky can constitute relationships, and people in the end can think it was worth it. It happens all the time and since this is a completely personal matter, I really cant understand how you can sit there and say they are wrong when those people themselves think it's worth it. Actually, from Romeo and Juliette to Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind, most artwork which touch on the subject examine this very aspect of love, that it grows against the odds. One can say it makes a better story when it's against the odds and there's that but it also has something to do with the fact that struggling kills boredom. Romeo and Juliette can not get bored of each other, people eventually get used to anything. And when they do, they start to get bored. Friction and contrast prevents that from happening. So rationality may sometimes even bring dullness instead of compatiblity, especially if it is overdosed.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2013 12:02 AM |
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Quote:
some people prefer spontaneous to flawless
Planning has costs too, so planning absolutely everything is usually not optimal. When I go to the store, I don't plan how to get my stuff as quickly as possible, because that would take too much effort compared to the difference in benefit of doing it perfectly. So, what's seemingly flawless may not actually be best, because of the effort needed to get it, and sometimes the effort is in the form of planning. This is in no way irrational, because in this case "what you want" isn't just the end result (which may be flawless or not) but also to minimize the costs involved in getting it, so the real goal is optimizing the combination of the two according to your preferences. But this higher-order optimization doesn't take much effort at all - much less than lower-order planning.Quote:
Things that are considered painful, unstable, risky can constitute relationships, and people in the end can think it was worth it.
People can think a lot of things are worth it when they really aren't. People can be and often are mistaken about what's good for them - just look at drug abusers. As far as relationships go, people often go into them with the wrong expectations or ideas - "instability is normal", "it's better to be in a bad relationship than alone", etc, which affects whether they think it's worth it. There's also another factor - people don't want to feel stupid, and they even more than that, they don't want to look stupid to others, so they're less likely to say something like, "There were all these signs it was going to be a bad relationship, but I went ahead anyway, that was dumb of me." I see people in unstable relationships and they're clearly unhappy about it, but when they end, they rarely say that it wasn't worth it.Quote:
people eventually get used to anything. And when they do, they start to get bored
Sorry, but this is nonsense. I'm used to eating and breathing, and I'm not bored of it. I'm used to speaking English, and I'm not bored of it, I'm used to having friends, to my girlfriend, to HoMM  , and I'm bored of none of those things. Something becoming boring when you're used to it is a sign that it's not really for you, in the long term - but there are many things that never get boring. You certainly don't have to struggle to not get bored - just have good things, and they'll serve you forever, or at least for a very long time.
You can't have too much rationality. It's literally impossible.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2013 12:40 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:41, 05 Dec 2013.
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You're starting to fall off track here, things like eating and breathing are biological needs and it is physically impossible to be bored of them. And how is it non-sense? Just because you are a creature of habit, does that necessarily make everybody a creature of habit? Are you the perfect sample or something?
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People can think a lot of things are worth it when they really aren't.
Yes, but since this is not The Price is Right and the only result that counts is personal satisfaction, you have absolutely no instrument to claim they are wrong. Imagine a classmate of yours, he and his girlfriend used to fight all the time, there was also another girl that used to like your classmate and she was very compliant with him. Now, 20 years later, you meet him at a reunion, (to your advantage, let's make him divorced), he says, "if I had married Peggy I guess I would have had a pretty decent life by now but looking back, a month with Sue was worth 50 years with Peggy." If you seriously believe, you are in a position to tell him "No, it wasn't. You should have married the other girl" AND claim your stance is based on some objective truth, you should re-learn what objective means.
And by context we use rational as in "be acted upon reasoning" and you CAN have too much of that, unless you pull a paradox such as "acting by reason all the time isn't reasonable" which would support my point not yours because the level of that will again change from person to person.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2013 12:53 AM |
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Quote:
And how is it non-sense? Just because you are a creature of habit, does that necessarily make everybody a creature of habit?
People don't get tired of their friends when they like them (in the long term, not on a daily basis). People in good relationships don't get tired of their spouses despite spending decades around them - do you think that by the 30th year of the relationship, they're still not used to being married? A lot of people enjoy their jobs, even though they're used to them. Etc, etc.Quote:
Yes, but since this is not The Price is Right and the only result that counts is personal satisfaction, you have absolutely no instrument to claim they are wrong.
Personal satisfaction is the instrument that I'm using. When people are clearly unhappy while in a relationship, it's bad for them by the standard of their own personal satisfaction.
I'm having some difficulty following your 20-year-reunion example. Which one is Sue and which one is Peggy? Whom did he marry and divorce? What were his options?
In any case, if someone tells me that a bad experience in the past was worth it, I'm inclined to think they forgot how bad it was to actually experience it, and tend to remember the good and forget the bad. Not only do I see it from time to time in other people, I can understand why they think so because I've had something similar happen to me. When I think back to my high school years, I remember my friends, my good teachers, and all the fun I had, and if I weren't as introspective as I am, that'd be all I'd remember. But I also remember that it was bad - I don't remember most of the things that made it bad, but I remember that I hated it. Most people remember the good and forget the bad, and so the past seems much better than it really was.Quote:
by context we use rational as in "be acted upon reasoning" and you CAN have too much of that
Acting on what reasoning? When? How much reasoning, and what is it like?
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 05, 2013 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
People in good relationships don't get tired of their spouses despite spending decades around them - do you think that by the 30th year of the relationship, they're still not used to being married? A lot of people enjoy their jobs, even though they're used to them. Etc, etc.
Some people do, some people don't. I am not the one talking on behalf of everybody, you are.
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Personal satisfaction is the instrument that I'm using. When people are clearly unhappy while in a relationship, it's bad for them by the standard of their own personal satisfaction.
I'm having some difficulty following your 20-year-reunion example. Which one is Sue and which one is Peggy? Whom did he marry and divorce? What were his options?
Except it isn't. Because you claim you can calculate their satisfaction for them and better than them. Happiness is not a binary concept. It comes and goes, sometimes it unexpectedly mixes up with feelings like melancholy, nostalgia, outburst... Besides, it also has a lot to do with your character in general, I remember about hearing a study which concluded if you're an optimist in general, even if you lose your legs in a car accident or something, after a year or so, you return to being an optimist. And if you're a pessimist with a mood, even if you win the big lottery, eventually you turn into a pessimist living in a palace.
In the reunion, obviously, he is married to the one he constantly keeps on fighting with. So you try to "correct him" by telling him the compliant one was the rational choice.
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Acting on what reasoning?
Behaving according to rational outcomes in general, as in contrary to taking emotional risks or being in a semi-destructive relationship.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2013 07:16 PM |
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Some people do, some people don't. I am not the one talking on behalf of everybody, you are.
The point is that familiarity doesn't create boredom, having uninteresting things around causes boredom. It's a specific case of having the wrong things - just like people buy things that bore them too. In some cases, it can't be avoided even when you're rational, because you don't have enough information to determine whether something would still be good for you if you were familiar with it - you naturally don't have that information, that's what being unfamiliar means. But often, you can predict it, because sometimes there's a feeling of "Ooh! New! Shiny!" even though you already know most of what you need to know to determine whether you'd be bored by it. So, once you get to know the person some, you can predict whether a future with them would be boring - and boredom isn't a necessity, just look at all the people in good, stable relationships who aren't bored.Quote:
Behaving according to rational outcomes in general, as in contrary to taking emotional risks or being in a semi-destructive relationship.
In that case, I stand by my statement that you can't be too rational, but as I said earlier, planning every minute detail takes effort and may not be optimal. There is also higher-level optimization, when you optimize how much to plan based on the efforts of and additional benefits of planning - as I said, planning everything when you go to the grocery store isn't optimal. But before doing something important (and from time to time while doing it) like a relationship, it is important to plan, because the consequences of getting it wrong and/or the benefits of getting it right are high. It's also worth reevaluating whether you're getting what you want when someone questions you about it - they may see something you don't.Quote:
Because you claim you can calculate their satisfaction for them and better than them.
If I remember that they didn't like it at the time, and I know that people remember the past as being better than it really was, I can say with some certainty that they're wrong.
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Eccentric Opinion
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted December 05, 2013 11:30 PM |
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Quote:
BTW. I can get Gootchie being all lovestruck and everything given the circumstances but what is it that drives so many people to spam the topic so quickly? I can't help but read people's posts and think that they are intentionally making themselves feel bad for not being in love. Why do you do this?
Do you feel that it is necessary for yourself to be in a loving relationship to be whole person? If so, where does this belief stem from? Social pressure? Personal beliefs? Can you try to explain it to someone like me who does not understand it?
If no one else wants to take this, I'm going to project this to DF since he is openly whining about it in practically every post in this thread.
I'll take a shot at this as it's one of the more interesting responses the last few days.
I don't think the majority of the responses come from that place you describe. If anything, it was Mvass' ridiculous and joy-sucking series of responses that contributed to the flurry.
Between him and Artu, someone is not allowed to either believe in love at first sight, or they are going to be corrected on this mistaken belief if they do. This correction has taken a few forms, from trying to establish a standardized, clinical, operational definition of love to outright, "People who believe in love at first sight are wrong." If I met them at a party, I'd listen to them for a few minutes and then find more interesting conversation.
In a nutshell, this flurry of activity came from a marginal point of my awesome posts. Even when confronted with irrefutable facts that love at first sight is certifiably, scientifically possible (expert opinion on Oprah's website, lawl), they have been steadfast in their stubbornness.
I have been blessed with a rare opportunity. How many people get to say they have this chance? And of those that do say they are presented with this chance, how many of them are able to pursue it with a clean conscience? At my age, too often marriages and children make our lives too complicated to be able to do what I'm doing. Maybe what I'm doing is irrational, throwing caution to the wind and such. But it sure is making me happy.
I'm aware of my reputation here. I've made such a name for myself that if this fails, if I fall flat on my face, most of the community would say, "It couldn't have happened to a better guy." I don't expect worthless words of encouragement. What I do expect, in people's reactions to ny writing in this thread, is an acknowledgement that I'm more than a slightly more sober version of Aculias, and that the world I present is far more complex than strict adherence to either/or.
The real shame in all of this is that I would have loved to have shared my views on empathy, energy sensation, energy manipulation, energy sharing, and how that might factor into love or at least its perception. But that is too subtle a topic for those who, through their inability to perceive it, are the first to ferociously discount it.
@ the mods. Since the old ways no longer apply,just gimme my qp for 1 or both of my posts and I'll be done with this thread. A pox on recommendations by the community. Too often, they're a thin veneer for a popularity contest.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2013 12:29 AM |
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The_Gootch said:
Even when confronted with irrefutable facts that love at first sight is certifiably, scientifically possible (expert opinion on Oprah's website, lawl), they have been steadfast in their stubbornness.
I wonder if you read your own link. It talks about how attraction is possible at first sight - something that I've never denied. But "I'd hit that" isn't love.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 06, 2013 12:40 AM |
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mvassilev said:
The_Gootch said:
Even when confronted with irrefutable facts that love at first sight is certifiably, scientifically possible (expert opinion on Oprah's website, lawl), they have been steadfast in their stubbornness.
I wonder if you read your own link. It talks about how attraction is possible at first sight - something that I've never denied. But "I'd hit that" isn't love.
Exactly. It simply says "Indeed, it takes less than one second to decide whether you find someone physically attractive" and "But can this handsome, deep-voiced, well-dressed stranger give you what you need? Even on the bigger questions, we often form an opinion within the first three minutes if the conversation turns to, say, politics or kids. So when you do feel an immediate click, go ahead and trust your instincts."
There is absolutely nothing contradicting here with what mvass or I say. But I guess you are too full of yourself to even realize that. When you go to a party, I recommend going in the bathroom and talking to that awesome reflection in the mirror, looks like the only way you'll feel entertained.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 07, 2013 06:42 AM |
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idontcare: thread killing, spamming and posting insults are not allowed here. I have warned you informally about thread killing and spamming before. Now the warning is official. Please read the code of conduct and see the warning in the OSM Announcements thread. I have cleaned the thread of off-topic posts and spam.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 19, 2013 05:35 PM |
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The Gootch
"Love at first sight is impossible - it's infatuation at most. You can't love someone you don't know, and if you've just met them, you obviously don't know them. You can love how you imagine them to be, but that isn't them..."
You people know nothing of this man. I've known him for over ten years. I know his soul better than most. He's paid me the profound honor of allowing me to peer inside. He has changed me for the better because of it. I know him like he is a part of me and I love him very, very much. He is capable of a very rare thing -- in fact that rarenes is endemic to who he is -- such that most of you will never understand.
And I know this thing that is happening is very, very real; more real than the vast number of souls who walk this earth will ever have the ability, let alone the opportunity, to experience. I know it is true as if it were happening to me, because, once upon a time, it actually did.
I am not young and stupid. I am fifteen years his senior, and old enough to be a grandmother to many of you.
It is a pity for you all that this is all flying over your heads. I realize that one must be of a rare sort of person, like the Gootch is, and like this woman clearly is, to see through to another's soul.
They are peering into a mirror when they look at one another. And there is so, so much beauty and depth and likeness there to see that they cannot possibly choose otherwise than to be forever in love, instantly and completely.
I am weeping with joy. I am so happy for you, Old Friend. I thank you and the world should thank you for reminding us of the preciousness, the exquisitness there is to be had, if only one is lucky enough to cross paths with that preciousness, and capable of recognizing it if that sublime event should ever visit them.
Such a thing is far too rare. But that does not mean it does not happen. It just did. The bell has been rung and I hear it, I hear it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 19, 2013 09:59 PM |
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You miss the point. Such a thing is impossible at first sight BECAUSE it is rare and deep, not the other way around.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 20, 2013 12:42 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:43, 20 Dec 2013.
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Two weeks ago I met a person and we have sooooooooo much in common. Values, interests, activities, ambitions and even music taste (anti-authoritarian, communist punk). The following days, I felt so happy and just couldn't think of anything else. I realised I might have fallen in love for the first time. Now the tricky part is that I'm not really physically attracted to this person. It is a very new thing for me to be interested in other people. How are you supposed to deal with a situation like this?
edit: Another problem is that this individual lives in another city, though visits to my town are frequent.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 20, 2013 12:52 AM |
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I assume this individual is male.
Given that he lives in another city, there's not much you can do. You can't get to know him if you don't spend much time around him.
Have you ever been physically attracted to anyone?
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 20, 2013 12:58 AM |
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We don't really live that far away from each other and next year, I'll be getting even closer to him as I move from my home town to a university campus. We'll still not be in the same city though. I do have the option of studying in his city instead, but I'd prefer not to move there for various reasons.
I'm attracted to a lot of people.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 22, 2013 04:12 PM |
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so... why do we fall in love?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 22, 2013 04:36 PM |
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Fauch said:
so... why do we fall in love?
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it...
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 22, 2013 07:45 PM |
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You don't need love in order to breed, but I guess some people get their penis mixed up with their hearts.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 22, 2013 09:08 PM |
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I'm not talking about wanting to screw a girl, but about true commitment.
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