|
| Thread: Lexxan's Creeping Expiriences. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
|
posted February 06, 2009 12:28 AM |
|
|
Quote:
The Typical creeping Skills,(Luck, Leadership and War Machines) are quite easy to get for Haven, which is a great asset for the Faction. Overall, I would take Luck over the latter two, since it's simply stronger and more Usefull that Leadership of Luck. Taking War Machines isn't a nessecity at all, there are simply better skills to take.
What? Did you mean War Machines?
And I have to disagree here. Leadership is very good. For one it helps Retribution (which is essential for Haven). Of course one might argue that you get Morale from artifacts and map locations, but that's not very reliable (especially adventure locations, since they deplete after a fight). And Divine Guidance or some spells + Empathy is a very powerful combo.
Luck is good too, I agree, but I wouldn't say it's better than Leadership - both are excellent IMO.
____________
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 09:13 AM |
|
|
@ Asheera: I was talking about Haven here  they don't need Leadership for retribution iirc, and Leadership is, imo, a good creeping skill (reason I even mentionned it), but it's about creeping here, and not the overall game lol. Though I must admit Empathy is very satisfying with Haven.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 09:18 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Luck is good too, I agree, but I wouldn't say it's better than Leadership - both are excellent IMO.
Allright,both are good,but I think luck is better than leadership IMO,it's much useful in battles for me
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 09:49 AM |
|
|
Updated it, and added Necro.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 09:49 AM |
|
|
Updated it, and added Necro.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 11:39 AM |
|
|
The post was not long, after the edit we are getting somewhere 
On haven: Whoever prefers to build footmen before week 4 at the cost of losing capitol, cavaliers, castle and angels week 2? Or 3 at any rate. Upgrading footmen is a utopia. Also.. Why use griffins? Maybe a few as swift blockers but you still lose them and vs shooters it's the first blow I'm more concerned with. And no I wouldn't attack hunters with griffins alone either.
Every noob knows the corner, ranged + single units so that's kinda superfluous to even mention. The only thing peasants are good at is defending for empathy bonus. That with divine guidance can save your hide a lot of times. Even so I prefer to swap them for something else should I find a joiner, hopefully blade dancers. Creeping with haven is simple, kill the easy ones with archers, wait till week 3 for cavaliers to deal with the rest. Especially with regeneration it's a piece of cake. Otherwise the only other option is ballista and tent which sacrifices lategame potential.
Your story about Dougal is false. If you attack druids, mages, crossbowmen or whatever you'll sustain bad losses unless really lucky or with perfect setup which is a bit unrealistic week 1.
About inferno: Flaming arrows is unnecessary for creeping, triple ballista and tent with your usual bag of tricks are more than enough.
Succubus + hellfire is weak. Hellfire has been weakened and apart from that it doesn't trigger on all targets in chain shot so it's not very effective. It will only drain your mana for little in return unless you get robe of sar issus in week 1 
The third is not a strategy, it's what you do regardless.
Deleb's ballista is barely better than any other demonlord's. Only good about her is that she starts with it.
Anyway you can creep any slow walker with some hellhounds warmachines or not. Only shooters are painful without mass confusion or ballista/tent.
On necro: No need to do any of this, things are easier. Skeleton archers creep everything especially so with firetrap or mass curses. If the map is hard enough you may want to use vampire lords week 2 but you'll likely miss the ore. Week 3 onwards wights + summoning can take care of almost everything. About creeping skills try summoning, enlightenment and logistics. Anyway when you can kill lots of arcanes day 4 what creeping are we even talking about
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 12:36 PM |
|
|
Good you posted, Elvin. And yeah , the post isn't long... yet
Quote:
Why use griffins? Maybe a few as swift blockers but you still lose them and vs shooters it's the first blow I'm more concerned with. And no I wouldn't attack hunters with griffins alone either.
Well, note that when I use the terms "Griffins" or "Footmen" I mean both the original version as the upgrades. I would never creep shooters with Griffins alone, but if I did, I would make sure they were at least upgraded to Imperials (or have Irina as a main)
Quote:
The only thing peasants are good at is defending for empathy bonus. That with divine guidance can save your hide a lot of times
It takes quite some time before you reach Empathy, even Divine Guidance. Most Heroes need at least lvl 7 to get DG, except Ellaine (4), Klaus (5) and Maeve (5). That take quite a while, and imo, Luck will help you more - You cannot depend on Chests too much, as you'll mostly need the gold rather than the Exp.
Quote:
with haven is simple, kill the easy ones with archers, wait till week 3 for cavaliers to deal with the rest
I usually cannot afford the huge Wood and Crystal cost of Cavaliers, though I must agree - Cavaliers make stuff a lot more easier. I however, usually am able to clear the map Mid-Week 2, End-Week 3 at last.
Quote:
Otherwise the only other option is ballista and tent which sacrifices lategame potential.
Cleve use of the Terrain and your units have worked for me. Yes, Ballista and Tent are great in creeping, but I agree, they take away some of your late-game potential. But this thread is about creeping (= imo clearing the map Week2-3 with minimal losses), so I do not include it.
Quote:
Your story about Dougal is false. If you attack druids, mages, crossbowmen or whatever you'll sustain bad losses unless really lucky or with perfect setup which is a bit unrealistic week 1.
that's why I said "most". I usually wait till the last moment to attack Druids (I really, really HATE to attack those). If you have some Luck and High Numbers, Mages shouldn't be much of a problem, ditto for crossbowmen. Mage guild spells like Haste or Eldritch arrow help a lot as well. Only real problems I've experienced are Arcane Archers, Druids and High-level shooters like Archliches.
Quote:
Succubus + hellfire is weak. Hellfire has been weakened and apart from that it doesn't trigger on all targets in chain shot so it's not very effective.
Hmpf, yeah, when I wrote that I began to realise how weak and uneffective it actually is  It worked well in H5 without add-ons tho.
Quote:
Deleb's ballista is barely better than any other demonlord's. Only good about her is that she starts with it.
Deleb was Nerfed in TotE, true, but she offers a quicker start than any other Demon Lord, and a quicker start means more resource over the same period of time, and sooner development of your Inferno.
Quote:
Anyway you can creep any slow walker with some hellhounds
I hope you mean Cerberi - Hellhounds simply die when they get retalialated on - and Horned Demons are too slow and Imps too precious to soak up Retaliation imo.
Quote:
Only shooters are painful without mass confusion or ballista/tent.
You forgot one thing: Grok's Teleport is very effective vs Shooters. Just teleport Tanks Overseers and let them explode.
Quote:
Skeleton archers creep everything especially so with firetrap or mass curses.
If you get them, that is. But for the same money, you can get Fist - or you can have 10 level-ups without Dark Magic popping up. but, for the rest I agree, Skele Archers are underestimated creepers. They are really good.
Quote:
Week 3 onwards wights + summoning can take care of almost everything.
I usually have cleared the map with Poltergeists and Archers by Week 3, except Mages and Druids.
Quote:
About creeping skills try summoning, enlightenment and logistics.
Logistics hardly ever influences Creeping and Enlightement's biggest asset in battle is Intelligence (which is good, but not as good as faster casting imo). Summoning IS, like I said, THE best School for Creeping.
Quote:
Anyway when you can kill lots of arcanes day 4 what creeping are we even talking about
I guess you mean Creeping with Ghosts, SKellie archers and Crystal, right?
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 01:10 PM |
|
|
Well even crossbowmen can act before yours and if not one of their stacks will hit you.
No I meant hellhounds. Run around and use only hero melee attack.
Skele archers are not underestimated, every necro player uses them online. Since you say clear map by end of week 3 what map are you talking about and what strength of creeps? Do you include pack of tier 7 or pack/lots of tier 6? Or horde of tier 3?
Logistics and enlightenment actually double your creeping speed. More battles fought, faster leveling plus the stats and arcane intuition for free spells.
Arcanes only with skeleton archers, motn, one skeleton warrior and raise dead. I had 30-40 mana.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted February 06, 2009 01:15 PM |
|
|
@Elvin: I've got nothing to add to that 
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
petka
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 27, 2010 02:36 PM |
|
|
"You forgot one thing: Grok's Teleport is very effective vs Shooters. Just teleport Tanks Overseers and let them explode."
From my experience, he has chances to act first (before shooters) like 3 times out of 10 during shooters creeping.
Druids, mages, arcanes, gremlins, titans, liches, misstres, assasins and other bunch of all those nasty shooters has iniciative 10 or more, so basicly grok has no much chance to act first.
Moreover, those stupid hornies are so lame at iniciative that even teleport asault wont give them enough iniciative in many cases.
So what are you talking about, i have tested on my but soooooo many times and can say [B U S T E D]. Luck is more reliable than this tactic.
|
|
Theouinn
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2010 05:33 PM |
|
Edited by Theouinn at 18:27, 10 Aug 2010.
|
About necro creeping, I'd rather use ghosts as shields for the skeleton archers, you'll get ghosts within a few days and before then just use zombies. With ghosts (split) and skeleton archers while playig Kaspar I killed level 7 tiers such as black dragons really early without any losses (sure, that requires some luck but still, is there any other faction that can kill these monsters without ANY losses using tier 1 and 3 creatures?)
Within the blink of an eye you'll creep your way through, raising dead after every battle and gain fast experience and mines/resources/artifacts, allowing a quick and effective town and hero build. This leads to vampire lords early on, so when you're up against a horde of druid elders, simply deploy your vampire lords only. I've never cleared an entire map this quickly on Hard difficulty before, the only reason I went back tomy main castle (only once) was to pick up some vampire lords and all the spells from magic guild level 1-5, which leads to the following conclusion: Kaspar rocks at creeping.
As for Inferno, I tried creeping with Deleb in the same game (playing multiplayer, allowing me to practice creeping with 2 factions at once) and found it slightly more difficult even though it was still doable. The first few days is all about killing low levle tiers guarding chests in order to reach that poweful ballista quickly, once you have it you'll be fine until you get cerberi/fire hounds and from there you should be able to creep a lot with few losses (unless you're up against that horde of druids of course).
____________
|
|
MageOfDestiny
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 12:46 AM |
|
|
Thanks this is a lot of help
But i would disagree with Lexxan saying DUNGEON is the easiest faction to creep with.I mean those bloody furies DROP DEAD LIKE HELL.Not to mention you will have 10mana for at least lvl6 if you are not lucky enough to get a crystal of revallation or hall of intigue in time.They are really frustrating to play (not just earlygame,but generally)
Academy is the easiest to play-gargoyle boxing strategie anyone?it is soo easy to creep with it,nothing can touch your core stacks and it works..until Djinns kick in or you meet another hero(even worse if it is a mage hero)
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 01:23 AM |
|
|
Furies are not to be used unless you are up against slow walkers like a throng of squires etc. Mana is not hard to find, focus on destructive and enlightenment for the first lvl ups and you'll get mana quick.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 07:12 AM |
|
|
here is a small list will all faction from the easiest (1) to the most difficult(8) for creeping. next to each the pros and the cons for creeping.
*in an average map under normal circumstances.
**only for creeping, not considering anything else
1)knight (easy war machines + crossbowmen, but difficult without)
2)barbarian (easy war machines,trappers + centaurs, lack of healing)
3)necromancer (abundant of healing, bad tier 1,2)
4)ranger (great shooters, pixies, without light it is difficult)
5)wizard (depends on hero, needs strategy)
6)warlock (depends on mana)
7)demonlord (slow start, depend on mana and hero)
8)runemage (slow start, average tier 1,2, depend on light)
I would like to discuss it
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 08:10 AM |
|
|
I kinda disagree on the scale. Necromancer and warlock are hands down on the top of the food chain, I have never crept so fast with any other faction except maybe orcs Telsek or a Haggash that gets machines in first few levels. And I have done consistently so, not just every now and then. No other race can kill lots of arcanes on the first week except maybe a very lucky academy not to mention the things they can do by week 2. The growth curve skyrockets while with other factions it at best increases steadily.
Barbarian is easier to creep with than knight - easier to get attack and logistics, same chance for machines. But despite that they can kill a few more neutrals than a knight can during the first 2 weeks, a knight for instance would have trouble vs lots/horde of squires. Reason is the trappers, rage reduction and powerful blow. Barbarian's only problem are fast units like nightmares but even then you can get tactics easily.
Wizard is probably next whether you choose to go destructive or summoning with firetrap, crystal and fire warriors - sometimes dark for mass slow/decay. Benefits a lot from tanky gargoyles vs shooters considering they also have mark of the wizard and easy access to damaging spells. Now if you also pick elemental gargoyles and secrets of destruction gives you fireball.. 
Demonlord is not actually slow unless you fail to get machines soon but they have the highest chance to get them besides dwarves. Not to mention they can hit lots of tier 7 week 2-3. Sylvan cannot be as fast as they are but then it doesn't really depend on certain skills either. Runemages can potentially reach the top since they have the best configuration, 15% machines and best lvl 1 tank. Thing is.. who gives 4500 gold for ballista.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 08:14 AM |
|
|
you cannot count on what you would like to have. when you start a full map you can't just go around risking.
what will you do if you don't get more than 20 mana until lvl 8-9? what if the wells are not everywhere? lastly, i wouldn't like to consider the "cheating" strategy of warlocks with the invisibility.
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 11:30 AM |
|
|
No risk no gain, besides I always did get what I want. Only once did I fail to get enlight till 8-9 lvl and I still did fine. Also there's no cheating
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 12:30 PM |
|
|
don't forget 2 things.
1) that stalkers ARE cheating
2) you don't tell the truth when you use the word "always"
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 12:55 PM |
|
|
One or two times in my heroes career does qualify as always. As for stalkers in 3.1 enemies move around to find you so you are at constant risk. Still sounds like cheating to you?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
|
|
posted August 16, 2010 03:18 PM |
|
|
yes it does. for the simple reason that stalkers do for ALL dungeon heroes what ossir does for sylvan, haggash for orcs etc
____________
Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
|
| |
|
|
