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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Random maps
Thread: Random maps This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted September 02, 2008 12:20 AM
Edited by diegis at 00:40, 02 Sep 2008.

Random maps

I would really like to start playing a fresh new random game, but Im not sure how the random system works with this new patch 3.1, 'cose as i remember the last ubi random game system was so unbalanced and not funny maps at all.
I've seen Ves' news in the main page about this new random map tournament and love the idea of not memorizing maps ...
So does anyone knows about this? thx

EDIT: I found this: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8908

(seems cool to me)
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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted September 02, 2008 12:51 AM

Random Maps in 3.1 are BUGGED!!

There is almost NOTHING random about them... They all have the Same pattern of placement of towns location and relationship to certain colors... For example.. Yellow and Red are ALWAYS linked.  Boring... and NOT random lol
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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted September 02, 2008 12:53 AM

What about Nevermindspy's rmg?

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted September 02, 2008 12:56 AM

Unless it has had some recent changes... last time I loaded one... it made the map with almost no trees or mountains etc.. just looked like some of the these new players maps when they bust out a map in 3 days... where there is just 50 buildings setting side by side.  No charactor hehe
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infinitus
infinitus


Supreme Hero
posted September 02, 2008 07:29 AM

Tried Random maps in 3.1 and it's nice to me... How it's not random ? Each time map is different... Sometime can be water zones on map, sometime not... A lot of new options, buildings... A lot better compared to 3.0
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Shredst0r
Shredst0r

Tavern Dweller
posted September 02, 2008 08:48 AM

i think some templates are really good. the few of them.
the most important thing about rmg is that you dont know exactly where a certain mine or building on the map is.
so players can play the map without both knowing the map 100%, without advantage.

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nevermind
nevermind


Famous Hero
posted September 02, 2008 10:10 AM

Here's a couple of things regarding random maps , First of all the change between 3.0 and 3.1 is HUGE , I regarded my rmg better then the old 3.0 and now 3.1's rmg is better is some ways , But it still has a number of bad things .

My rmg is very incomplete its now at a mode where people can use it to play but there are so many things left to do in it , For now i'm taking a break from development process to study the 3.1 rmg and to play some more games i will get back to finising the rmg some time and when its finished the maps will be awesome..

Anyway you meanwhile should enjoy the 3.1  , Jinx you got to learn how to use templates.. they are the key in making a good random map..

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valkyrica
valkyrica


Supreme Hero
posted September 02, 2008 10:48 AM

Quote:

Anyway you meanwhile should enjoy the 3.1  , Jinx you got to learn how to use templates.. they are the key in making a good random map..



If you could provide some insight into using them templates, that'd be swell and we would all appreciate it immensely.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 02, 2008 12:08 PM

Quote:
If you could provide some insight into using them templates, that'd be swell and we would all appreciate it immensely.


Check this thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=24002&pagenumber=1
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valkyrica
valkyrica


Supreme Hero
posted September 02, 2008 12:56 PM

Much appreciated, forgot about that thread.
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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted September 02, 2008 02:35 PM

Well I dont know how you can consider it completely random... IN recent Ceasar game with Jorko... I recently discovered that Position 1 & 4 ( Red & Yellow ) are ALWAYS linked by a portal just down the road... so seems the maps are not generated randomly.. And if all "templates" are generated the same.. then seems soon as a person recognized a certain template... they then know how the map is gonna go....

Part of the excitement for me in randoms is the fact that I dont know where my opponent is.. and he doesnt know where I am.. Must hunt and find... But however if they know that I must go thru this portal and that one and there he is everytime.. you can plan your game frm day1 and thusly is not random.
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infinitus
infinitus


Supreme Hero
posted September 02, 2008 02:54 PM

On the same template in one game can be Dragon Utopia, in other game no Utopia but memory mentor, or no mentor, no Utopia but hill fort etc... Infinite combination's  making the map unique... This is not the same map ... How can you plan your game from day one in this conditions Jinxer ? And why use 4 start positions for two players game ... And even if use 4 start position why not to choose start position 1,3 to avoid early encounter ?
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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted September 02, 2008 03:24 PM

Ha Ha... you are missing my point!


I dont have to always choose red vs. yellow.. but that was the only 2 colors I tested..  I generated 10 maps with 6 players and in EVERY one.  red and yellow was linked.. And I bet that if I tested all the other colors they would have similar linked situtions.. i.e. Blue and Orange linked etc.. ( didnt test that just using example)  

But regardless if there is Utopia there one time or not.. if you are randomly matched up Necro vs. Fortress etc... Necro could easily rush and crush Fortress in early game.. SO why worry about Utopia... if you know exactly where you opponent is.. just take what you NEED in your path and go kill your opponent.


But IF you dont know where your Fortress opponent is.. then cannot play on a rush strategy from day 1 ... Thats my point.  To be truely 100% random... when generating the same template Red and Yellow should not always be linked etc.


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nevermind
nevermind


Famous Hero
posted September 02, 2008 03:55 PM

Jinxer your missing the point and basing your entire judgement and or understanding on one template..

In this paticular template you have 2 playes who are connected by portal so its easy to know where the other one is , But on a better made template there could be 1) multiple connection leading from player to player - and or 2) more paths to other places .

Given that situation and a random position of zones you can (almost) never really know how to get to your opponent since there are many paths and you don't know where each one leads to..

In any way the ultimate random solution i will eventually integrate is random templates - that really eliminates any chance of guessing where you opponent may be.

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joetheloser
joetheloser


Hired Hero
posted September 02, 2008 11:30 PM

Hello DIEGIS:  Welcome to the "dark side" of random maps

RE: Sameness of random maps
(1) I've played about a dozen so far in 3.1 with varied sizes and settings..including number of CPU players.  Jinxer, you are probably right that if you play the exact same settings with the same templates (perhaps there is only 1 template for a 6 player game at the size you picked)...it can become predictable in town placement.

(2)  If you vary the settings a little (i.e. 3 players instead of 6, bigger/smaller size, water/no water..etc etc) it would be very difficult to ascertain the layout day 1 or even week 1.  Of course there is a finite amount of templates and after playing enough of them you can see patterns, but everything else is random.  

(3) Nevermindspy (btw I agree your RMG was much better than 3.0, and in some ways better than 3.1..but in many ways 3.1 has caught up).  Anyway, do you know how the templates are chosen in 3.1, if you don't pick one?  Are there like 3-4 different templates it can randomly choose from given specific settings: i.e. M/no under/no water/2 players has at least 3 templates I've seen.

(4) One problem I have seen is terrain.  They say it is fixed, but only if you pick town during map making.  Most people I know who play random maps would like random towns as well.  I know you can pick "random town" during generation, but that requires trust in the person who is generating it...since it just shows up.  My solution, if I know the person..of course I'm gonna trust him/her to make the map chosing random towns, knowing what I got is truly random.  If it is new player I just say:  "Hey, if your terrain is wrong we can regen the map, this time picking the towns we were just randomly assigned.  That seems to be a good solution.

(5) Underground: I've seen mixed reports on whether or not this is fixed.  From personal experience I've seen the following:  If the terrain is your "typical" underground, everything is fine.  If however the terrain is that ornate floor pattern (is that for dwarves or something..I'm not sure who that terrain belongs too) it is COMPLETELY DEVOID of loose resources.  Can anyone confirm/rebuke this finding?

Thanks!

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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted September 03, 2008 01:02 AM

thx guyz...much appreciated ...

Thats what i've feared of ....

(but analyzing and memorizing the positions of towns and so on in a random 1vs1 or anything like that seems so hilarious...-unfortunately this could be true )  
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joetheloser
joetheloser


Hired Hero
posted September 03, 2008 01:41 AM

Quote:
thx guyz...much appreciated ...

Thats what i've feared of ....

(but analyzing and memorizing the positions of towns and so on in a random 1vs1 or anything like that seems so hilarious...-unfortunately this could be true )  


Correct me if I'm wrong..but it's not quite as clear cut as memorizing position of town.  More like you have 3 guarded exits...one of the will lead you to town X, but you don't know which one....that is assuming you have guessed the right template

I don't have any grand illusions like it is completely random everytime, and you clearly have an "idea" of where certain things might be (towns etc.), but trying to depend on that "idea" may cost you the game if you are wrong.

In the spirit of full disclosure...I've not played too many TOH approved man made maps...but the ones I have seem like little mirrors (often well made with lots of "character") so the balance is controlled down to maybe 2% deviation.  

In random maps you can have bigger variations since so many variables change.  While the truly balanced man made maps may be a more chess-like test of "skill"...the random maps are in many ways more challenging (perhaps frustrating?) and in my opinion more about "having fun" than creating/memorizing/training a specific set of "steps" for a given map.  Besides, I think even playing a couple random/blind maps makes you more versatile a player.

On a side note:  In 3.1 I've not seen any cartographers (thank god)...have they been completely removed?  That sure would be nice.


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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted September 03, 2008 05:01 AM
Edited by vesuvius at 07:24, 04 Sep 2008.

When the random map tourney starts, it will be with the following parameters:

Random L or
Random XL

No Water
Underground optional, only in L.

Resource 3
Experience 3

Players 2 (Red vs Blue)

Difficulty Heroic

Edit: Monster Strong

Everything Random

I've played over 60 random maps from both blue & red perspectives, and its fun/original with enough randomness/discovery/balance for it to work well.
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joetheloser
joetheloser


Hired Hero
posted September 03, 2008 05:21 AM

Quote:
When the random map tourney starts, it will be with the following parameters:


Difficulty Heroic

Everything Random

I've played over 60 random maps from both blue & red perspectives, and its fun/original with enough randomness/discovery/balance for it to work well.


Difficulty heroic..that should be interesting

Gonna enhance the "luck of the draw" factor a bit...as other have pointed out in discussing creeping ability on heroic in other posts.

What about monster strength?

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infinitus
infinitus


Supreme Hero
posted September 03, 2008 07:26 AM

Good to hear Vesuvius promote random maps stile of play... I think playing one fixed map all the time is pure play for points ... Random maps is play for fun ...
To Vesuvius - Why water off ? One more option add some fun... Why not leave all on random ? I mean all - resources, water, template ... Only thing i like to choose are my Sylvan  
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