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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 12:17 PM |
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This torpor thing can easily be broken down by stone spikes or some mass spells.
For dwarfs its even bigger of an issue, if u said vampire princes is an issue, how about rune of battlerage on 2-3 stacks paw strike and bash by bear riders and battleragers not to mention a pre installed rune of thunderclap if there is any?
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 12:19 PM |
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Morale and empathy + divine guidance with retribution is equally broken if it keep on coming.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 14, 2009 12:34 PM |
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Let's not start arguing about that. I'm not trying to reinvent the game just make some upgrades more competitive, if you want to pick the same and the same upgrades forever just say so.
And to be objective no princes are not alright, not by a long shot. Also do you know what probability factor is? It is the number of automatic rerolls the unit gets if its effect fails to trigger. They get it thrice, do you think a 'mere' twice would make them useless? I think not.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 14, 2009 12:40 PM |
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I'd prefer to leave that stuff alone. Vampire Princes are so overpowered it's almost amusing, but I'd prefer a reduction in number before you alter the mechanics of the game itself. Yeah, Vampire Prince still have like a 99% chance of torporing 25 champions when there's 1 of them left, but at least you can kill them quicker.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 12:51 PM |
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Edited by sq79 at 12:52, 14 Mar 2009.
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I'm not trying to argue with you elvin, but changing the characteristics of a creature should be left to ubi.
What's wrong with preferring this upgrade over the other. I've seen some take white bears, some prefer black bears, some goes for nightmares, some goes for the other. While some obviously better creatures are choosen all the time. But why can't they choose now ?
There is no such thing as close battle every game. You need to take luck factor, arties, and the skills learned and game instincts of the players. It doesn't mean when there's 1 slaughter the game is inbalanced or something.
I don't see a problem with vampire princes, there is 70 in arena map and its not a problem anyway. Its almost the only hope when you face a morale + retribution + empathy haven.
Its just my own thoughts anyway, you are the map maker and you can do anything you want with it.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 14, 2009 03:16 PM |
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Well I would have liked for all upgrades to be more balanced but I think it will be too of a headache to do it ourselves for this map since balance is hard to find and some people will still disagree with the changes probably.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 14, 2009 04:17 PM |
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No need to divide the opinions, it was a long shot. I'm not fond of the reduction idea as that will only make it easier for destructive caster opponents but I hoped that a compromise could be reached. Plus it's a sure bet that ubi will nerf them in the next patch 
Right now I cannot understand why anyone would care on changes for troops nobody bothers to choose but scratch that. Princes are a glaring example of hindsight and lack of testing, an insult common sense. I can forget everything else but they are in a league of their own..
Besides it's not as if my banned stormwind turned out bad did it. And I'm sure you will also prefer to see rune of rez bring back 30% of units.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 14, 2009 04:40 PM |
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Princes are an embarrassment to the game, but I think it's best to just focus on the balance of the army as a whole, and necro is balanced and beatable even with the Princes factored in.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 14, 2009 04:42 PM |
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I think Vampire Princes are not a problem... So many solutions against them, and they do not torpor as often as you are saying.
Also, changing Storm Wind back to the way it was, is a bad idea... and actually it was a great boost to Vampire Prince problem
Old Ubi Storm Wind(which is the current one in duel map) I rarely picked, but the new Ubi Storm Wind is a bit too much indeed maybe, but still better than the old one.
Anyway, every town has 2-3 very dangerous stacks, that you need to take out ASAP, and Vampire Princes are one of those for Necro.
In the end, I think balance of the game is pretty good in 3.1, and I've seen people use alternates I do not , pretty often, most of the times it depends on opposing town.
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted March 14, 2009 05:18 PM |
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I think there's nothing wrong about modding the map, if we manage to make a funnier/more balanced game by doing that, it will be the best we can do. The problem here is that it seems expert players think they'll have to learn how to play again, so the old exploits won't work. Yes, I said exploits, which are too often the main weapon of these kind of players, instead of moving/attacking wisely. If you want to avoid diving opinions, just offer an additional map without modifications, so the players who want to play with exploits everywhere can do it.
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Torre de Marfil Foro / Portal - La Comunidad
hispana más completa sobre la saga Might&Magic.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 05:23 PM |
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I don't understand what you mean by exploits, the skills and creatures are there for all to learn and to use. How does one player "exploit" another ?
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted March 15, 2009 10:29 AM |
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Quote:
I don't understand what you mean by exploits, the skills and creatures are there for all to learn and to use. How does one player "exploit" another ?
Yep, they all are there to learn, but that doesn't mean all players know some perks and combos. Once you know them, the games reduces itself to use them, and that's so sad, imho. It's the kind of thing we can upgrade with a MOD. I like more the games which are won by moving/attacking wisely (strategy) than the ones which are won/lost by a too powerful skill or unbalanced creature.
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Torre de Marfil Foro / Portal - La Comunidad
hispana más completa sobre la saga Might&Magic.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 15, 2009 11:21 AM |
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Edited by sq79 at 11:23, 15 Mar 2009.
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I think heroes will become a very sad game if its reduced to just moving wisely in a battle field.
In a duel map or arena, the best thing to do is you can "configure" a hero of your choice right from level 1, and its a wit game even during the leveling and skilling process. It becomes really boring when reduced to a game of chess in the battle field alone.
90% of the players can move wisely in the battle field. What makes the difference is finding the solution and prove it in the battle field.
I've seen so many players complain this is overpowered, that is stupid etc in games. But when the complete opposite rematch comes, they still lost it again and again.
Then they realised, they just don't know this game as well yet. and for that, they deserve to lose it.
I learned this game from scratch, and lost to many players, I was abit pissed with all these overpowered stuff initially, but then, they showed me, there's a solution to everything. Really, there is 
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted March 15, 2009 07:16 PM |
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It's clear that skills and additional are an important key in the game, but they shouldn't be so decisive, because if not so we reach to "one strike and you're dead" situations, and these are my main concern, no other. Maybe you've played with so many other players and get pissed, like you say, but that's no excuse for a hard mind preserving attitude to the game. One of the good things Nival did is to leave the game open someway, so Why shouldn't we MOD it? What we should seek with a MOD is a medium point, a more balanced game, that's all.
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Torre de Marfil Foro / Portal - La Comunidad
hispana más completa sobre la saga Might&Magic.
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted March 15, 2009 07:30 PM |
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@Lepastur
1. Don't draw conclusions from duel games - play some good custom maps rather 
2. There are very few gamebreaking things in this game right now. By gamebreaking I mean those which will automatically turn the tide for you, no matter how good your opponent's setup is against you.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 15, 2009 07:36 PM |
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It really can never be balanced.. Really hard... The entire game mechanics probably have to be changed to strike out the balance.
Its like a scissors paper stone in heroes5.
Like academy's arch enemy is haven and sylvan, but they are much better when it comes to facing necro, which in turn fights haven better than academy itself.
If you noticed, the power shifts along as the map is being "balanced"
academy and sylvan was balanced from the 2 strongest into the 2 weakest race now. Did it really make a difference ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 15, 2009 09:22 PM |
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In the previous version you were complaining about sylvan being too weak Anyway yes there is a difference even as the power of some factions shifts, the balance is overall better now. Also I disagree that so many people can move flawlessly with good planning and tactics. Yes skills is the greatest modifier to this battle, even defines how the units will act in the battlefield but really how many times will you butcher your opponent just by having the right skills? Only in the case of a lucky overpowered build and artifact combination.
Aanyway where is pera? You've got a game with Arcax to settle so we can finally have the finals!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted March 15, 2009 10:10 PM |
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@Clayman - The MOD would be for the Duel map, isn't it?
The only thing I'm saying is that we should not fear modding the game in order to make it funnier and more balanced. Hard things can be done and impossible ones are worthy to give a try anyway 
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Torre de Marfil Foro / Portal - La Comunidad
hispana más completa sobre la saga Might&Magic.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 15, 2009 10:46 PM |
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I fully support that initiative change for AA's and MH's. AA's are already too strong so they need a small nerf, and boosting MH's a little would make you think a bit which upgrade to choose.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 15, 2009 10:51 PM |
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Perhaps a dumb question, but when you make these changes, would it display the different stats when you go to look at the upgrades?
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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