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| Thread: The view (3D, camera, objects on the map) | |
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zahariev
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 19, 2008 11:33 PM |
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The view (3D, camera, objects on the map)
I want to ask Nival to make every single item on the map in Heroes 6 visible without twisting the camera and losing the way... I know that it was the first time to make Heroes 3D, but in Heroes 6 they MUST make everything visible (make the trees smaller, make the heroes bigger ot something like that)!!! It is really annoying to move the camera all the time...
Of course many of us didn't like the 3D view. I have nothing against it. As long as I see all the objects on the map. It is difficult to make everything look real and in original sizes on the map. But that should be one of the main things Nival must focus - the adventure map. After all, 50-60% of the time we play Heroes, we look at the adventure map. And if it's not convenient, if it's not made in a way to make you move and organize your heroes easily, then it's not a good game...
By the way, the only thing I liked in HoMM4 was the adventure map. Even if HoMM6 has to go back to 2D, I'm OK with that. I don't want to get lost and confused by the map anymore...
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 19, 2008 11:37 PM |
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Hmm... what if they made creatures, artifacts etc. visible through trees etc. by using the RTS trick?
You know, if something is behind a building, it turns yellow and can be seen through the building?
You could switch it on or off by pressing ALT 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 19, 2008 11:38 PM |
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I disagree with this, actually. I think the 3D concept of Heroes 5 works really well, and it's extremely rarely that I find myself missing objects or being anoyed because something is hidden by the perspective. Navigating underground can be a bit cumbersome at times, but that's not a visual problem as much as a functional (you can't click on an item that's behind something else).
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What will happen now?
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 19, 2008 11:47 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 23:52, 19 Sep 2008.
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Same opinion here, but for H6, I'd like the size of things to be a bit more realistic.
The towns should be really big, the hero should be more realistic in size etc.
If it would turn out the way I want, the function I mentioned might be very useful. Once you know where the stuff is, you can easily adjust the camera to get a good view.
EDIT: Wait a second... isn't the see-through thingy already in H5? Been ages since I played it... heresy
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 19, 2008 11:55 PM |
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It is, at least in the Underground. The REALLY annoying thing is that the opositre walls stands between you and the tunnel in underground (and you barely notice this as the wall is transparent). I once got fooled by this in Arantir's Campaign in TotE. Took me two days to figure it out
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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zahariev
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 20, 2008 12:02 AM |
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I definately want the 3D to stay, but in a way that is to help the players, not to make them confused. All of us have had problems with the orientation in HOMM5. Those huge trees, high mountains and hidden roads - you know what I'm talking about. It is not easy to operate on this kind of adventure map. And it is one of the reasons the people don't play multiplayer games on HOMM5. It makes the game slow and it makes you loose time finding stuff. It also turns the adventure map into some puzzle map. You forget which way you've come, where are the stairs... In HOMM3 and 4 it was so easy to move the heroes and to plan your way. Something is wrong with the puzzle maps in HOMM5...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 20, 2008 08:47 AM |
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I think you generalize in a way which is not fair here. Yes, all of us might have had incidents where we were confused, but that doesn't meen it's really a serious issue. There are already semi-transparant walls and structures, all collectable objects give off a vertical light to let you know they're there, and if you press the ALT button, they are furthermore outlined with a shiney border. It may not be perfect, but then, what is ever perfect? I think it works very well as it is.
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What will happen now?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 02:35 PM |
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I like the 3D system, and it's not such a "pain" to rotate the camera, I'm not of the "go-as-fast-as-possible" type.
Speaking of which, am I the only one that plays with all animation speeds at the "normal" level? (that means the slowest)
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 20, 2008 02:46 PM |
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From VCMI project board:
Quote:
I just thought you VCMI guys could strike an alliance with us to recreate Heroes 5 as a classical 2D game, carrying over all standard H5 skills, rules and game mechanics. You've got the source code for VCMI, so you have nothing standing in your way. I guess a 2D remake of H5 could achieve an immense popularity among old-school H3 fans dissapointed with the graphics/style/system requirements of H5 (I've got a Q6600 CPU overclocked to 3.2 GHz, 4 Gb of RAM and a GF 8800 Ultra and the game may lag at certain moments if all the settings including AA/AF are maxed out!).
Personally I found it silly, and asked for further explanation. Here it comes:
Quote:
Turn on a 16X Anti-Aliasing and 16X AA Filtering and switch the cam to a perspective view instead of facing the ground. You'll get some pretty lags for sure.
I believe some people did not grow up to face 3D world. It's the same way of thinking as "There are many car accidents, so we should ban cars." It won't lead us anywhere.
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zahariev
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 20, 2008 06:25 PM |
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Edited by zahariev at 18:26, 20 Sep 2008.
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It's not what I'm talking about. The game is too slow to be played online. And since there won't be add-ons, the people will lose interest. Heroes 3 became a legendary game, because of the multiplayer battles. Heroes 5 is just too slow with this adventure-puzzle map. I have nothing against the 3D. It is the future, more people will play the game if it is 3D. But I want the view to be more user-friendly...
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted September 21, 2008 05:26 PM |
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Quote:
I like the 3D system, and it's not such a "pain" to rotate the camera, I'm not of the "go-as-fast-as-possible" type.
Speaking of which, am I the only one that plays with all animation speeds at the "normal" level? (that means the slowest)
Nope. I'm also a 'jerk' who likes to actually see how creatures attack, how heroes move. If you make all animations fast, the game has an arcade feeling. I woun't sacrifice the pleasant atmosphere to make my turns 30 secs faster each.
IMO, the 3D system work very fine. The only graphical glitch I find is about the textures.
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5 Times TV
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 21, 2008 10:48 PM |
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Overall 3D is an inevitable improvement. Although back when 3D graphics really stunk, I preferred 2D. Like with FF7, although a great game, the 3D graphics were still so poor back then that I still preferred 2D.
The "hidden items" thing can be easily fixed. Most 3D games that can run into those sort of problems make the background become transparent so you can see items. I'm not sure why they didn't include that graphics feature in H5.
edit: haha, it was really funny when I first got H5. Without bothering to glance at the book or anything I installed it and started playing. The game automatically started super zoomed in. And I was like: "what??!!" For some reason it took me a few minute to think: "Try zooming out, duh!" I was really disappointed there for a few minutes.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 04, 2009 08:32 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 00:35, 05 Apr 2009.
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I apologize for thread necromancy, but this might be a good place to post my dilemma... See, I agree with every post in this topic even though some are complete opposites. LOL
It's not just the matter of being able to see every resource pile on the adventure map; for me it's all about strategy and immersion.
Sometimes I think I'd like to see H6 go back to the basics:
In Heroes 1, objects were symbols and were not supposed to be proportionate. The advantage of this approach is not only the overall visibility; zoomed out, the game is also more epic, more similar to a historical map... Finally, the emphasis is on planning rather than enjoying the view.
This style used to be common in most strategy games:
In Age of Wonders and Disciples forests were actually patches of passable terrain with severe moving penalty (although there are impassable areas, of course). I'm mentioning this because in Heroes I hate it when my level 20 hero, who has just beaten a stack of dragons, cannot jump over a tiny rock on the road ahead... or decides to go around mountains because he cannot bypass a bush. Not to mention that the terrain in the aforementioned games is subject to change - cast a firestorm on the woods and you'll create a few squares of scorched earth and dead vegetation.
Please keep in mind these pics are just examples, it's not the actual art style I'd like to see; the screens are ancient LOL and H6 will certainly look a thousand times better in 3D. The very style could vary from fairy-tale to dark fantasy to realistic... It wouldn't depend on the adventure map view:
On the other hand, the adventure map in Heroes has transformed gradually: the change began way back in H2 and H3 with all those rocks and flowers and was completed in H4 and H5, where each tree is - a tree, not a forest.
The advantage of the second approach is greater immersion; the suspension of disbelief is easier because the map looks like a world, not... a map. The latest two sequels look more like role playing games than old school strategies, which is good in my book.
So I was wondering if it was just me or do you guys also see things this way? If there is a distinction, which style would you prefer to see in H6?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 05, 2009 12:02 AM |
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H5 is completely different from all the previous games, no longer is each square supposed to represent a half-mile (or so), be it forest, plain or mountain, each square is now scaled to 'hero', which removes any real sense of the epic scale of earlier games, with adventures now seeming to be a stroll through the country, rather than the epic journeys of the older games.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 05, 2009 05:37 PM |
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@Matt II > Good point - Heroes 5 is deffinitely much more "local scale" than previous game. Ironically, Heroes 5 is pretty much to scale with the exception of the towns, which are suddenly grossly underscaled - as compared to previous games, where it was the other way around: Heroes and objects being overscaled to surroundings. I must admit I like the Heroes 5 way, I think it adds a quite nice and intimate atmosphere to the settings.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 05, 2009 09:45 PM |
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The problem there being that the hero himself is an icon for the army, not a unit, and thus it makes no sense (inasmuch as a game can make sense) to scale everything to him. Perhaps you could replace the hero with a banner or something so that people don't get as confused.
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted April 10, 2009 08:23 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree with this, actually. I think the 3D concept of Heroes 5 works really well, and it's extremely rarely that I find myself missing objects or being anoyed because something is hidden by the perspective. Navigating underground can be a bit cumbersome at times, but that's not a visual problem as much as a functional (you can't click on an item that's behind something else).
²
said all...
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