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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Whatta hell!
Thread: Whatta hell! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 12:43 PM

Whatta hell!

Yesterday I had a game with pera.the.kojot on ratrace.

I played with dungeon (Yrwanna) against wizard.

My skills were attack, war machines, logs, enlightment and light.

I managed to get swift mind, but my hero's turn came only after his golems with init 12. That was strange.

But the reason I opened this post was despite of not having destruction skill at all, Yrwanna had armageddon and implosion in her spellbook!

I did not have mage guild 5 in my town, nor tome of destruction, so the only way I "could learn" them is taking mage's vaults and pyramids. I remember that these spells were displayed, just other dark and summoning also, and those were not in my spellbook. But I dont have the skill for any other.

After the battle we reloaded and I managed to cast armageddon.

Please help, is it a bug, or I missed something badly.


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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted September 22, 2008 12:46 PM
Edited by samiekl at 12:48, 22 Sep 2008.

Scroll?
You tried the warmachine build? Cool! How is it on ratrace?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 12:50 PM

Normally I'd suggest you had a scroll but two lvl 5 spells..? Or attribute them to book of power and magic insight but you say no sorcery and that's up to lvl 4. Maybe in 3.1 you don't see them in the spellbook in adventure map but they appear when in battle? I have only played one full game since the new patch and I didn't check.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 22, 2008 01:35 PM

Quote:
I managed to get swift mind, but my hero's turn came only after his golems with init 12. That was strange.
It is not strange at all. If you do some maths, you will find out that Swift Mind simply makes the first hero's turn come 25% faster, which means the same as the hero having 12.5 Initiative. And the random ATB start favored the Golems a bit (with Init 12) it seems...
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 01:38 PM

Other than that I have seen a knight without swift mind acting before 15 init wind dancers. I never understood how that happened.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 22, 2008 01:48 PM

lol are you sure? That's really strange
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 02:05 PM

I checked the initiative and the hero was mine so there is no doubt. It wasn't the ring of speed either, I've checked and it doesn't affect heroes.
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 02:09 PM

Quote:
Scroll?
You tried the warmachine build? Cool! How is it on ratrace?



Hey, man, I am not an idiot, not scroll of course

So I see that there is no answer to this mystery yet.

Maybe I received them twice? Or above a certain level you get them? Or factions linked to magic, eg dungeon will get destruction spells wihtout skill?

Very strange.

Ratrace is small so wm set up is great. And against wizard this is the way to go, cuz from min arties wizard gets protection, and they can reflect spells also.

I was breaking with heavy losses because I had no res or reg. But not having light spells is the risk.


About swift mind: I know that it says 25% bonus in the beginning of the combat, and hero init is 10. And I also know that random atb bar can give some (in my experience from -2 to +2 ), but in my experience in 3.0 it was rather 14,15,16 not 12,13,.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 22, 2008 02:14 PM
Edited by Asheera at 14:15, 22 Sep 2008.

Quote:
About swift mind: I know that it says 25% bonus in the beginning of the combat, and hero init is 10. And I also know that random atb bar can give some (in my experience from -2 to +2 ), but in my experience in 3.0 it was rather 14,15,16 not 12,13,.
Random ATB gives a bonus between 0% and 25% at the beginning of combat to every creature. Notice the %.

That means, a Crossbowmen can have a maximum start like he had an initiative of 8*1.25 = 10; while a Fury can have a maximum start like she had an initiative 16*1.25 = 20!

The minimum for these creatures is of course 8 and 16 respectively (at the start)

Now, Swift Mind just gives +0.25 ATB at the start, on top of which the random start ATB also applies. This means that the hero with Swift mind can have a maximum start of 12.5*1.25 = 15.625 initiative, and a minimum of 12.5

Without Swift Mind, the hero would have a maximum start of 12.5 initiative and a minimum of 10.
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 02:24 PM

Quote:
Quote:
About swift mind: I know that it says 25% bonus in the beginning of the combat, and hero init is 10. And I also know that random atb bar can give some (in my experience from -2 to +2 ), but in my experience in 3.0 it was rather 14,15,16 not 12,13,.
Random ATB gives a bonus between 0% and 25% at the beginning of combat to every creature. Notice the %.

That means, a Crossbowmen can have a maximum start like he had an initiative of 8*1.25 = 10; while a Fury can have a maximum start like she had an initiative 16*1.25 = 20!

The minimum for these creatures is of course 8 and 16 respectively (at the start)

Now, Swift Mind just gives +0.25 ATB at the start, on top of which the random start ATB also applies. This means that the hero with Swift mind can have a maximum start of 12.5*1.25 = 15.625 initiative, and a minimum of 12.5

Without Swift Mind, the hero would have a maximum start of 12.5 initiative and a minimum of 10.


Thanks, this is the precise method. As far as I know the manual it says that the comp does not round, but count with the precise init.

But in reality I had more games, when the hero came before a creature with init 16. Which would be impossible, still happens. Therefore I tought there could be some cases, when you loose some init at the beginnning of the combat. Please, dont ask me to show a replay, rather ask the community.  

I hope we can solve these issues both.

About spells, I had around 30 sp, and my empowered armageddon caused 532 damage. I need a mathematician, but I guess this is expert level.

(No bonus for another extra 50%)

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 02:25 PM
Edited by Elvin at 14:30, 22 Sep 2008.

He's just saying it almost never happens. And I have never seen something like that to be honest.

Edit: Armageddon on expert does 30+30*Power which would be 930. I'm not even talking about empowered version.

Edit: Stupid me, it's 20+20*Power.. So 620.
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 02:30 PM
Edited by Kispagat at 14:33, 22 Sep 2008.

Quote:
He's just saying it almost never happens. And I have never seen something like that to be honest.

Edit: Armageddon on expert does 30+30*Power which would be 930. I'm not even talking about empowered version.


Uh, that much, so it must be without skill amount.

I just have a look 9+9*power is around less, maybe basic, but anyway the fact itself bothers me that I could learn and cast it.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 02:31 PM

Sorry my bad. 30*30 referred to the 'meteor' damage that is higher than the armageddon.
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 02:36 PM

Quote:
Sorry my bad. 30*30 referred to the 'meteor' damage that is higher than the armageddon.


Nope, you were right.

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_destructive_magic.shtml

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2008 02:43 PM
Edited by Elvin at 14:51, 22 Sep 2008.

Seems I mixed them. Tried it in duel to be sure and the regular armageddon with Sinitar was 630 with the meteor damage 280. Btw with warlock's luck the meteor damage remains the same.

I'll try in a modified map to see what happens with vaults.

Edit: No, I learnt phoenix from vault and even tried your build but the spell did not appear without summoning. A bug then but situational or if it happens to work with armageddon only I have no clue.
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2008 02:52 PM

Quote:
I'll try in a modified map to see what happens with vaults.


I took all the map, so visited 5 vaults and 2 pyramids. And if I can learn 5th level spells, why just destruction ones? I remember getting vampirism and phoenix also.


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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 22, 2008 03:01 PM

maybe just a random bug. Weird things happen sometimes in all games. If it's just one time situation, it's best to ignore it. That's how patching works btw. They only address things that happen to many ppl, completely ignoring unique bugs.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 22, 2008 03:11 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:13, 22 Sep 2008.

Asheera > Your mathematics are not quite correct. You forget that Swift Mind offers you a 0.25 ATB bonus which is not the same as a 25 % increment to Initiative.

To do the math properly, we need to look at it like this:

A = A0 + I*T    ,    where:

A  = ATB value
A0 = start ATB value
I  = Initiative
T  = fictive game time

In game, you get your action when A(TB) = 1.

Let's look at first:

No swift mind
In this case, A0 = [0 ; 0.25]

Worst case: A0 = 0     =>   T = 0.1
Best case:  A0 = 0.25  =>   T = 0.075
Average:    A0 = 0.125 =>   T = 0.085

Now what does this tell us? Well, if we take the worst case scenario and calculate the lowest I(nitiative) a creature can have and act at this time we get, because we take the best-case scenario of that creature, i.e. A0 = 0.25:

A0 = 0.25 ; T = 0.1   =>  I = 7.5

Conclusion: A Hero without Swift Mind always acts before any creature with I < 7.5.

Similarly, we can compare the best case scenario to the worst-case scenario of a faster creature:

A0 = 0 ; T = 0.075   =>   I = 13.3

Conclusion: A Hero without Swift Mind always acts after any creature with I > 13.3.

Obviously, on Average, you Hero will act at the same time as a creature with I = 10 (the same as himself).


With swift mind
In this case, A0 = [0.25 ; 0.5]

Worst case: A0 = 0.25   =>   T = 0.075 (same as best case before!)
Best case:  A0 = 0.5    =>   T = 0.05
Average:    A0 = 0.375  =>   T = 0.0625

Now in this case, it's fairly obvious that because the worst-case scenario is equal to that of the best-case scenario w/o Swift Mind:

Conclusion: A Hero with Swift Mind always acts before any creature with I < 10.

Similarly, we can compare the best case scenario to the worst-case scenario of a faster creature:

A0 = 0.25 ; T = 0.05   =>   I = 20

Conclusion: A Hero with Swift Mind always acts after any creature with I > 20.

Furthermore, on Average, you Hero with Swift Mind will act at the same time as a creature with:

A0 = 0.125 ; T = 0.0625   =>   I = 14

Conclusion: A Hero with Swift Mind on average gets to act at the same time as a creature with I = 14.



Overall conclusion
- A Hero without Swift Mind acts between creatures of Initiative 7 and 14 and will on average act at the same time as a creature of Initiative 10.
- A Hero with Swift Mind acts between creatures of Initiative 10 and 20 and will on average act at the same time as a creature of Initiative 14.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 22, 2008 03:17 PM

A lot of calculations there Alc

But I just have a logical question: if you start with 0.25 ATB, then you have only three quarters instead of four to "fill" before your turn. Doesn't that mean that it's 25% faster? Therefore, the same as having 25% more initiative?

Or actually it's 4/3 = 33% faster?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 22, 2008 03:23 PM

Quote:
A lot of calculations there Alc

But I just have a logical question: if you start with 0.25 ATB, then you have only three quarters instead of four to "fill" before your turn. Doesn't that mean that it's 25% faster? Therefore, the same as having 25% more initiative?

Or actually it's 4/3 = 33% faster?


It is actually 33 % faster, like you say.

And then you have to take into account that you normally start with "average" 0.125, and with Swift Mind "average" 0.375, so that you need to fill only 0.625 (instead of normally 0.875). Hence you act 0.875 / 0.625 = 140 % faster, i.e. 40 % higher (average) initiative, hence I = 14.

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