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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Tribute to Strategists
Thread: Tribute to Strategists This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 · «PREV / NEXT»
Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted December 18, 2008 06:13 PM

Well, if you know, what was the purpose of the question? I'll mention it, it is a valid point.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 02, 2009 01:28 AM


____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 02, 2009 11:03 AM
Edited by Ecoris at 11:05, 02 Jan 2009.

What are we supposed to notice? That the Greater Basilisks don't kill the Serpent Fly?
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 02, 2009 01:24 PM

Yes, exactly. Nice screen. But why did they wait? What compels them to such action?  

Happy new year all
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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 02, 2009 01:49 PM
Edited by Ecoris at 13:50, 02 Jan 2009.

Why not? The Serpent flies have apparently already moved this round. But it seems strange since if they did kill the fly the (greater) basilisks wouldn't move within the range of any of Crag's troops or his ballista or lizardmen. Perhaps they know he hasn't got mass slow. Perhaps they are afraid of mass haste.
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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted January 02, 2009 03:49 PM

Quote:
Perhaps they know he hasn't got mass slow. Perhaps they are afraid of mass haste.


There is no calculation like that in the game routine.

The greater Basilisk is a "2-Hex-Wide" creature. In this case the right Hex of the Basilisk does count for the AI, while the left Hex of the Basilisk is just "added". So the obstacle "tree" is blocking the way the basilisk moves.

Thats similar to put a 2-hex Creatures in front of a berserked 2-hex creatures. The berserked creature simply dont move cause it cant reach the left-hex of the blocking creature.

At least this would be my explaination.
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 02, 2009 05:50 PM

Well, if Lizards move they will be in range of hero's other units. So that doesn't sound right. But the 2-hex theory isn't without holes too, for in a human human fight berserked creature will attack the 2-hex creature in front of it. Only vs neutrals does this work, afaik.
Besides, i find it unlikely that the AI thinks it cannot pass due to obstacle, since it would attack the fly in wait phase anyway. It would be interesting to see what would happen if there wasn't that lower basilisk.
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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted January 02, 2009 07:21 PM

Quote:
Well, if Lizards move they will be in range of hero's other units. So that doesn't sound right. But the 2-hex theory isn't without holes too, for in a human human fight berserked creature will attack the 2-hex creature in front of it. Only vs neutrals does this work, afaik.


Thats correct, still i dont see any Human opponent!?!?!

Quote:
Besides, i find it unlikely that the AI thinks it cannot pass due to obstacle, since it would attack the fly in wait phase anyway. It would be interesting to see what would happen if there wasn't that lower basilisk.


Maybe the AI knows that a hart hitting creature gets morale (thats what the computer actually does know).
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 02, 2009 08:27 PM

That is why I mentioned that it would be interesting if there weren't those lower basilisks. I think that Protos is pretty much correct.

Sure, I know there is no human, I'm just mentioning it.

Which creature do you mean that gets morale? But that is an interesting question: does the AI know that if it waits, it will get morale in wait phase? (in normal phase no morale will appear - that the AI knows). I doubt it though, for I think morale and luck depend on what the human will do to, which the AI cannot know.

But say it in other way: human's units all acted, AI has one stack left, if morale will appear in wait phase, does it know that? And if it does, will it wait? There are no human moves, so the seed is pretty much fixed.
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 02, 2009 08:30 PM

I just noticed something:

Next round begins
Gr. Basilisks wait

How is that possible? They cannot be first.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 02, 2009 11:26 PM
Edited by maretti at 23:49, 02 Jan 2009.

The flie moves first but there is no text when a unit moves without attacking. Its round one after the tactic fase.

I think Xarfax has some strong points. As I mentioned earlier, as I recall, ive seen this with wyverns and griffens before (both 2 hex units). The "beserk theory" is interesting but it normally doesnt prevent a 2 hex unit from attacking something it cant reach with the right hex, so what exactly is making them wait I cant figure out. Besides that the tree may play some part too, allthough its hard to see what, since the greater basilisks can move both ways around it. I tried to make some tests but couldnt make a similar situation happen again. Didnt get any usefull obstacles though. Moral could be the solution too since this happens so rarely. Unfortunately I dont have a save from this battle and I dont recall how the moves were. Could be interesting if its about moral, this way you could anticipate that you would get moral by the way the AI moves.

As Protos mentioned it might mean something that the lower basilisks can reach the flie too. I dont think this is what makes the greater basilisks wait though, since im pretty sure ive seen similar situations where only one stack could reach the fodder.

@Ecoris: Funny you write "Crags troops", its actually Jarbarkas. I dont think the AI takes potential spellcasting into acount ever. Besides that he dosent have a spellbook. The wyverns can reach the greater basilisks if they attack the flie but that normally dosent stop the AI from attacking.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 03, 2009 12:22 PM

Quote:
@Ecoris: Funny you write "Crags troops", its actually Jarbarkas. I dont think the AI takes potential spellcasting into acount ever. Besides that he dosent have a spellbook. The wyverns can reach the greater basilisks if they attack the flie but that normally dosent stop the AI from attacking.
I don't know why I got the idea that it was Crag. Perhaps your avatar and/or sig. I don't know much about what factors the AI takes into account when it makes its decisions during combat.
Perhaps they were afraid of the wyverns. The wyverns will get the last move of they (and a sufficient amount of the other troops) wait, right? Does the AI consider such turn orders?
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 03, 2009 01:17 PM

Well, if similar situation arises, please make screens. I think that more examples are needed for a definite conclusion. Also, LM Oracle program could be very useful to test how morale (luck) affects AI's wait. Even in multi, it is not necessary to quit the game, just reload and save auto, and repeat battle in single player afterwards.
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citrusmind
citrusmind


Hired Hero
posted January 03, 2009 09:58 PM

i tried the link on the first post and couldn't get the file is it still there?
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 03, 2009 10:22 PM

BTW - whats that army - 20 gorgons and only 1 hydra... pretty unusual

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted January 03, 2009 10:31 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 22:31, 03 Jan 2009.

Quote:
i tried the link on the first post and couldn't get the file is it still there?


Do you mean you couldn't find the button you hit to DL? I had this problem too.

Look in the lower right-hand corner, there will be a small line of text that says "save to computer" or some such, click that.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 03, 2009 10:51 PM
Edited by angelito at 22:52, 03 Jan 2009.

Quote:
BTW - whats that army - 20 gorgons and only 1 hydra... pretty unusual
box? / dwells?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 04, 2009 12:24 AM

Yes, it's still there, I checked. Just click the link on the bottom.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 04, 2009 01:22 PM

Box with 15 gorgons plus 1 dwell.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted January 04, 2009 03:05 PM
Edited by bloucester at 15:27, 04 Jan 2009.

Quote:


"When will it wait?"

I havent figured it out, but a couple of times I have placed a single fodder unit within reach to get the ai forward but it has waited. Even though it was the fastest unit on the battlefield it didnt attack it either but just moved forward after the wait. Very strange. I dont recall exactly what units it was but maybe royal griffs and wyvern monarcs.




Well, I did some research on this recently. Seems to be random I put a single fodder in the reach of some dread knights and they waited. Second try - all conditions were absolutely the same,i put the stack on exactly the same hex and so on and the knights attacked directly.

The problem is I don't remember if there were some obstacles in the way of the dread knights. BUT, WE ARE ONCE AGAIN TALKING ABOUT A TWO-HEX CREATURE.

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