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| Thread: Shocking Suggestions |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 03, 2008 07:22 PM |
bonus applied by GenieLord on 08 Oct 2008. |
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Shocking Suggestions
Ok, I know for most (if not all) of you this will be a crazy idea, but I'll give it a try nonetheless.
I never liked the tier system in HoMM. In fact, it's not the tier system, but the huge gap it is between the tiers. I never liked the idea of uber tier 7s that can devastate lower tiers (especially tier 1s). That's why I'll present you now all the creatures with their stats changed, so that the gap will be A LOT lower. In this process, I also hope I balanced some alternative upgrades...
I know, you'll probably say: but the neutrals will be messed up. With the current system, yes, they will be. But with a system like this, which places the neutrals based on power and not growth, it will work out perfectly fine.
I also balanced the spells, and changed the dwelling costs, obviously. Also note that the damaging spells have an increased damage by around 30%, because the total HP of a week population has also been increased by around 30% (apparently) - this also applies to HP related spells (such as Arcane Armor), since the damage of a week population has also been increased by around 30%. And I made Light/Dark magic spells to have effect with Spellpower, and not just the duration (I got inspired from a thread Alc linked somewhere)
NOTE: I did not make the Orcs and Warcries and any other Orc-related things!
THE CREATURES
Haven
Ability Changes: NONE.
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Peasant 7 5 1-2 5 4 8 40 30 59 5
Conscript 8 7 1-3 8 4 8 40 53 105 9
Brute 7 6 1-4 8 4 8 40 53 106 9
Archer 12 8 3-6 11 4 9 15 102 214 17
Marskman 12 9 3-12 15 4 8 15 152 319 27
Crossbowman 12 9 3-10 14 4 8 15 152 329 27
Footman 11 12 2-4 18 4 8 14 120 249 19
Squire 11 14 2-5 26 4 8 14 170 363 29
Vindicator 12 13 3-5 24 4 8 14 170 355 28
Griffin 11 9 5-12 38 7 15 5 345 722 51
Imp Griffin 11 10 6-16 44 7 15 5 490 1070 77
Bat Griffin 12 10 6-16 50 7 13 5 490 1046 76
Priest 10 10 9-17 60 5 10 4 455 956 67
Inquisitor 10 12 10-17 72 5 10 4 620 1358 95 12
Zealot 11 11 12-17 66 5 10 4 620 1333 94 9
Cavalier 12 10 13-23 68 7 11 3 625 1326 92
Paladin 12 12 13-23 78 8 12 3 840 1826 128
Champion 13 11 16-23 78 8 12 3 840 1801 127
Angel 15 15 62-62 196 6 11 1 1920+1C 4596 316
ArchAngel 18 15 62-62 256 8 11 1 2550+2C 6556 459
Seraph 18 15 46-96 236 8 10 1 2550+2C 6509 458 14
Spells:
Inquisitor: Haste (Advanced), Divine Strength (Advanced), Regeneration (Advanced)
Zealot: Divine Strength (Expert), Righteous Might (Advanced)
Seraph: Divine Vengeance (Advanced)
Inferno
Ability Changes:
- The Imp's/Familiar's ability reduces the enemy hero mana by 5 for each 19 creatures in the stack (one week)
- The Vermin's ability reduces the enemy hero mana by 0.44 per creature
- Horned Overseer's Explosion Damage: 24+22*SP
- Hell Stalion's Searing Aura Damage: 8 per creature
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Imp 9 7 2-3 10 5 13 19 75 156 13
Familiar 9 8 3-6 12 5 13 19 118 242 21
Vermin 9 9 2-6 13 6 13 19 118 247 21
Horned Demon 10 12 2-4 23 5 7 14 106 216 17
Horned Overseer 11 13 2-7 26 5 8 14 156 328 26
Horned Grunt 10 12 3-7 23 4 8 14 156 333 27
Hell Hound 10 8 4-6 19 7 13 11 155 321 25
Cerberus 10 7 4-8 19 8 13 11 215 462 36
Firehound 10 8 3-6 19 8 13 11 215 469 36
Succubus 12 8 9-19 33 4 10 5 355 764 54
Succubus Mistress 12 8 9-19 39 4 10 5 492 1075 78
Succubus Seducer 12 9 9-19 46 4 9 5 492 1066 78
Hell Charger 11 9 8-17 54 7 15 3 525 1111 79
Nightmare 13 9 9-17 72 8 16 3 710 1518 107
Hell Stalion 12 9 8-17 77 8 14 3 710 1535 108
Pit Fiend 14 10 15-35 132 4 8 2 950 2049 140 15
Pit Lord 14 12 18-37 166 4 8 2 1260 2741 193 29
Pit Spawn 14 14 18-38 169 6 9 2 1260 2777 193
Devil 13 17 37-77 200 8 11 1 1910+1S 4554 318
ArchDevil 17 17 44-77 249 8 11 1 2575+2S 6606 465
ArchDemon 16 17 55-77 266 7 10 1 2575+2S 6666 466
Spells:
Pit Fiend: Fire Ball (Basic), Vulnerability (Advanced)
Pit Lord: Fire Ball (Advanced), Meteor Shower (Basic), Vulnerability (Expert)
Necropolis
Ability Changes:
- The Plague Zombie's Weakening Strike reduces the Att and Def by 3.
- The Rot Zombie's Festering Aura Effect: Attack -3, Defense -3, Morale -1
- Wraith gains the Fright Aura ability
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Skeleton 8 11 1-2 7 5 10 29 45 95 8
Skeleton Archer 10 11 2-3 9 4 10 29 70 146 13
Skeleton Warrior 9 13 1-2 10 5 10 29 70 151 14
Zombie 10 8 2-4 22 4 6 18 84 178 13
Plague Zombie 10 8 3-5 25 4 7 18 126 267 20
Rot Zombie 10 9 2-4 30 4 7 18 126 264 21
Ghost 9 7 2-3 14 5 10 16 105 219 16
Spectre 9 9 2-6 15 5 10 16 146 307 24
Poltergeist 9 8 2-5 20 6 9 16 146 303 24
Vampire 11 11 5-12 36 6 11 5 348 735 53
Vampire Lord 13 12 11-12 43 7 11 5 483 1034 77
Vampire Prince 12 12 9-12 43 7 11 5 483 1049 78
Lich 12 10 19-24 72 3 10 3 610 1286 92
ArchLich 12 10 19-32 77 3 10 3 825 1820 129 16
Lich Master 12 10 19-35 83 4 10 3 825 1818 129 20
Wight 14 13 20-32 105 6 11 2 955 1989 146
Wraith 15 13 32-40 120 6 11 2 1300 2769 200
Banshee 14 13 28-32 130 6 12 2 1300 2712 199
Bone Dragon 15 16 20-35 189 7 11 1 1450 3058 214
Spectral Dragon 15 17 35-50 210 8 11 1 1790+1M 4333 313
Horror Dragon 15 18 35-55 200 8 11 1 1790+1M 4333 313
Spells:
ArchLich: Weakness (Expert), Decay (Advanced), Suffering (Advanced)
Lich Master: Suffering (Advanced), Raise Dead (Basic)
Dungeon
Ability Changes:
- Assassin and Stalker Poison Effect: Damage = 2, Duration = 4
- Dark/Grim Raider Defense Reduction per path tile: 15% instead of 20%
- Brisk Raider's Wheeling attack damage coef: 33%
- Deep Hydra's Regeneration HP: 90-160
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Scout 10 8 4-7 18 5 10 10 140 283 22
Assassin 10 9 4-7 24 5 12 10 225 474 38
Stalker 11 10 4-6 26 6 11 10 225 484 39
Blood Maiden 12 7 5-9 20 7 14 8 195 409 30
Blood Fury 13 8 6-9 22 8 16 8 290 609 47
Blood Sister 13 10 5-9 25 8 14 8 290 597 46
Minotaur 12 7 6-8 42 5 9 7 240 495 36
Minotaur Guard 12 9 6-8 52 5 9 7 335 707 52
Mino Taskmaster 13 11 6-11 52 5 9 7 335 692 52
Dark Raider 12 9 9-17 50 6 11 4 430 927 63
Grim Raider 13 11 9-18 70 8 11 4 600 1313 90
Brisk Raider 12 12 9-17 70 8 13 4 600 1292 88
Hydra 8 11 9-19 110 5 7 3 610 1280 88
Deep Hydra 9 14 9-19 155 5 7 3 820 1751 122
Foul Hydra 9 13 9-19 125 5 8 3 820 1733 122
Shadow Witch 13 9 15-20 71 4 10 3 630 1379 91 11
Shadow Matriarch 14 9 20-24 84 4 10 3 840 1864 124 18
Shadow Mistress 14 10 20-24 76 5 10 3 840 1848 123 18
Shadow Dragon 14 13 36-65 205 9 10 1 1950+1S 4792 319
Black Dragon 16 16 45-65 260 9 10 1 2600+2S 6789 466
Red Dragon 15 17 36-65 240 10 11 1 2600+2S 6809 468
Spells:
Shadow Witch: Slow (Advanced), Sorrow (Basic), Righteous Might (Advanced)
Shadow Matriarch: Slow (Expert), Sorrow (Advanced), Righteous Might (Advanced), Confusion (Basic)
Shadow Mistress: Righteous Might (Advanced), Confusion (Basic), Implosion (Basic)
Sylvan
Ability Changes:
- Dryad's Symbiosis Healing: 5 per Dryad, 25 per Treant
- Wind Dancer's Agility Bonus: +1 per tile (not +2)
- Arcane Archer's Force Arrow: 20% Defense reduction
- Savage Treant's Rage of the Forest Initiative Increase: 4
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Pixie 7 6 3-4 8 7 12 13 96 203 16
Sprite 8 6 4-5 11 7 15 13 154 335 27 10
Dryad 7 6 5-5 11 7 14 13 154 325 26
Blade Dancer 12 8 3-6 17 6 11 12 130 262 20
War Dancer 12 8 3-8 19 6 15 12 190 388 31
Wind Dancer 13 9 4-8 17 7 13 12 190 396 32
Hunter 11 8 5-7 13 5 10 10 170 358 26
Master Hunter 12 9 5-9 18 5 10 10 238 505 38
Arcane Archer 12 9 5-9 18 5 11 10 238 512 38
Druid 12 9 6-12 44 5 10 5 350 763 51 12
Druid Elder 14 10 12-16 43 4 10 5 480 1054 73 16
High Druid 13 9 12-17 44 4 9 5 480 1050 72 13
Unicorn 11 8 12-24 74 7 12 3 610 1281 89
Silver Unicorn 11 9 12-24 96 7 12 3 810 1716 121
Pristine Unicorn 11 9 12-26 84 7 12 3 810 1766 121
Treant 9 14 7-20 215 6 7 2 770 1617 111
Ancient Treant 9 17 10-25 235 6 7 2 1030 2199 155
Savage Treant 9 15 13-28 225 6 7 2 1030 2188 154
Green Dragon 14 16 24-50 198 8 12 1 1940+1G 4777 320
Emerald Dragon 16 17 30-62 219 9 14 1 2590+2G 6777 464
Crystal Dragon 17 16 27-60 230 9 14 1 2590+2G 6749 464
Spells:
Sprite: Wasp Swarm (None), Cleansing (Advanced)
Druid: Lightning Bolt (Basic), Endurance (Advanced)
Druid Elder: Stone Spikes (Basic), Lightning Bolt (Expert), Endurance (Expert)
High Druid: Endurance (Advanced), Earthquake (Advanced)
Academy
Ability Changes:
- Master Gremlin Repair HP: 9 per creature
- Magnetic Golem Damage Redirected by Magic Magnetism: 4% per weekly growth
- Titans and Storm Titans get Immunity to Lightning
- Titan's Call Lightning Damage: 35
- Storm Titan's Call Storm Damage: 20
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Gremlin 7 7 2-4 8 3 7 27 50 106 9
Master Gremlin 7 8 2-4 10 5 11 27 82 177 14
Gremlin Saboteur 7 7 2-4 11 5 12 27 82 185 15
Stone Gargoyle 8 12 2-3 29 6 9 12 125 261 20
Obsidian Gargoyle 8 13 2-5 39 7 10 12 195 408 33
Elemental Gargoyle 8 13 2-6 32 7 11 12 195 404 32
Iron Golem 11 13 3-9 30 4 7 9 190 397 29
Steel Golem 12 14 7-9 35 4 7 9 265 561 42
Magnetic Golem 11 14 4-12 30 4 8 9 265 561 42
Mage 10 9 8-8 24 4 10 6 290 632 44 15
ArchMage 10 9 8-8 36 4 10 6 404 885 63 25
Battle Mage 10 10 8-8 34 4 10 6 404 888 64 16
Djinn 11 8 11-22 40 7 12 3 460 999 71
Djinn Sultan 12 8 18-22 50 8 12 3 625 1359 97
Djinn Vizier 11 9 18-24 48 8 12 3 625 1378 98
Rakshasa Rani 13 9 19-29 139 5 9 2 960 2017 141
Rakshasa Raja 13 10 29-39 159 6 8 2 1250 2626 190
Rakshasa Kshatra 13 9 29-43 149 7 8 2 1250 2656 191
Colossus 16 16 45-75 225 6 10 1 1980+1G 4733 327
Titan 17 17 45-100 245 6 10 1 2620+2G 6853 477
Storm Titan 17 16 45-95 255 6 10 1 2620+2G 6886 479
Spells:
Mage: Fist of Wrath (Advanced), Cleansing (Advanced)
ArchMage: Fist of Wrath (Expert), Cleansing (Advanced), Arcane Crystal (Advanced), Arcane Armor (Basic)
Battle Mage: Fist of Wrath (Expert), Magical Immunity (Advanced), Teleportation (Advanced), Summon Elementals (Basic)
Fortress
Ability Changes:
- Shield Guard's Shield Wall reduction per path tile: 7.5% (60% max)
- Regarding White Bear's ability, The small creatures' chance to be frightened is 50% more, rather than double
- BattleRager abilities:
> Battle Rage Effect: Initiative +1, Attack +4
> Giant Slayer Effect: +3 Attack, +3 Defense
- Lava Dragon's Liquid Flame Breath Damage: 30
Also note that the Brawler growth-boost dwelling gives +6 per week now...
Stats:
Creature Attack Defense Damage HP Speed Initiative Growth Cost Power Exp Mana
Defender 11 11 2-3 19 4 8 14 100 210 16
Shieldguard 12 12 3-4 29 4 8 14 160 344 28
Mountain Guard 12 13 3-5 30 4 7 14 160 340 28
Spearwielder 12 9 2-4 20 4 9 13 120 247 20
Skirmisher 12 9 5-5 21 4 9 13 175 365 30
Harpooner 12 9 4-6 21 4 10 13 175 363 29
Bear Rider 11 12 5-9 45 6 10 6 285 597 46
Blackbear Rider 12 14 5-9 50 7 11 6 400 869 67
Whitebear Rider 12 13 6-10 45 6 11 6 400 859 67
Brawler 9 10 4-8 34 5 12 5 230 479 34
Berserker 10 10 4-9 40 5 12 5 310 665 48
BattleRager 10 10 4-8 40 5 11 5 310 655 49
Rune Priest 10 10 10-20 66 3 9 3 530 1138 80 18
Rune Patriarch 12 10 10-20 76 3 9 3 714 1563 109 24
Rune Keeper 13 11 13-20 76 3 9 3 714 1563 109 24
Thane 12 12 7-12 111 8 11 2 940 1991 142
Flame Lord 12 12 20-30 144 8 11 2 1240 2636 191
Thunder Thane 12 13 7-16 133 8 11 2 1240 2658 192
Fire Dragon 14 15 40-50 240 6 9 1 1945+1C 4799 323
Magma Dragon 16 19 40-55 325 6 9 1 2595+2C 6767 471
Lava Dragon 16 17 40-75 300 6 9 1 2595+2C 6776 470
Spells:
Rune Priest: Deflect Missile (Advanced)
Rune Patriarch: Deflect Missile (Expert), FireWall (Advanced)
Rune Keeper: Deflect Missile (Expert), Fire Trap (Advanced)
BUILDINGS
Haven
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Peasant Huts 750 2 0 0 0 0 0
Peasant Cabins 5400 16 12 0 0 0 0
Archer Tower 2500 7 7 0 0 0 0
Marksman Tower 5600 7 20 0 0 0 0
Barracks 3700 3 15 0 0 0 0
Garrison 5300 10 10 3 0 0 0
Griffin Tower 4000 7 7 0 0 5 0
Griffin Bastion 5500 7 7 0 0 6 0
Monastery 4800 2 2 3 3 3 3
Cathedral 5200 2 2 3 3 3 3
Jousting Arena 5200 10 0 7 0 0 0
Order of Palas 5100 5 5 7 0 0 0
Altar of Light 7000 0 10 4 9 0 0
Altar of Heaven 6700 0 5 5 10 0 0
Farms 500 0 0 0 0 0 0
Inferno
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Imp Crucible 1300 0 6 0 6 0 0
Familiar Crucible 5666 0 5 8 0 0 8
Demon Tower 2400 5 0 0 0 0 5
Demon Bastion 4800 10 6 0 0 0 9
Howling Kennels 3300 10 4 0 0 2 2
Raging Kennels 4850 12 0 0 0 9 2
Hall of Temptations 3900 5 5 0 0 4 4
Hall of Sins 4900 0 0 4 4 5 5
Burning Stables 4200 4 4 0 0 0 5
Blazing Stables 4500 5 5 5 0 0 5
Heart of the Pit 5000 0 12 0 0 10 0
Heart of the Abyss 4700 0 4 0 5 6 3
Temple of the Fallen 6666 0 10 0 0 10 5
Temple of the Forsaken 6400 10 0 0 0 7 7
Spawn of Chaos 590 0 2 0 0 0 0
Halls of Horror 666 3 0 0 0 0 3
Sacrificial Pit 1500 0 0 2 2 0 0
Necropolis
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Graveyard 1000 7 7 0 0 0 0
Boneyard 5400 3 15 0 0 12 0
Crypt 1500 5 10 0 0 4 0
Festering Crypt 4800 9 9 5 0 6 0
Ruined Tower 2400 10 10 0 4 0 0
Haunted Tower 4200 10 7 0 0 9 0
Vampire Mansion 2900 8 8 0 0 8 0
Vampire Palace 4000 10 10 5 5 0 0
Sepulcher 3500 5 5 3 3 3 3
Mausoleum 4100 2 2 4 4 4 4
Forlorn Hall 4000 7 10 0 0 9 0
Forlorn Cathedral 4300 12 0 5 0 9 0
Dragon Graveyard 3700 9 9 0 0 9 0
Dragon Vault 4600 10 16 0 0 10 0
Unearthed Graves 100 0 0 0 0 0 3
Dragon Tombstone 1600 0 4 0 0 4 0
Shrine of Netherworld 2500 0 6 0 0 3 0
Dungeon
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
School of the Unseen Hand 1200 5 0 0 0 0 3
School of the Black Heart 5800 0 0 10 0 7 0
Blood Arena 2200 0 5 0 2 0 3
Blood Memorial 5200 0 5 4 9 0 0
Labyrinth 3100 10 10 0 0 0 0
Maze 4300 0 12 0 0 0 7
Dark Enclosure 3500 10 0 0 0 0 8
Grim Enclosure 4700 0 10 6 0 0 3
Hissing Cavern 4200 5 5 5 3 0 0
Rattling Cavern 4600 5 5 10 0 0 0
Hall of Shadows 4500 5 5 3 0 3 3
Palace of Shadows 4500 5 5 4 0 4 4
Dragon Spire 6200 0 0 9 0 0 12
Dragon Pinnacle 6000 0 0 5 0 0 15
Ritual Pit 2000 0 3 0 0 0 3
Trade Guild 1800 5 5 0 0 0 0
Sylvan
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Faerie Trees 800 5 0 2 0 0 0
Faerie Wood 5200 7 0 7 7 0 0
Battledance Terrace 1800 7 10 0 0 0 0
Battledance Arena 4900 7 7 10 0 0 0
Hunter's Cabins 3000 9 0 0 8 0 0
Hunter's Lodge 4600 10 0 7 3 0 0
Stone Ring 3300 0 12 4 4 0 0
Stone Circle 4800 0 10 6 6 0 0
Unicorn Glade 4100 9 0 5 5 0 0
Unicorn Garden 4100 6 6 0 9 0 0
Treant Arches 3900 12 0 0 3 0 5
Treant Alcove 4400 9 0 7 0 0 5
Dragon Altar 6000 5 5 6 12 0 0
Dragon Shrine 5400 10 5 6 7 0 0
Blooming Grove 300 2 0 2 2 0 0
Treant Saplings 800 5 0 0 0 0 0
Academy
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Gremlin Workshop 1300 0 7 0 0 2 0
Gremlin Manufactory 5900 7 3 6 0 0 6
Stone Parapet 2300 0 15 0 0 0 0
Obsidian Parapet 5700 0 8 0 6 0 5
Golem Forge 3800 5 5 0 0 5 0
Golem Foundry 4800 4 4 0 0 0 8
Mage Tower 3900 0 5 0 3 0 6
Archmage Tower 4900 5 0 9 3 0 0
Altar of Wishes 3700 10 0 0 0 5 0
Pinnacle of Wishes 4700 5 5 0 2 6 0
Silver Pavilion 5300 0 6 4 8 0 0
Golden Pavilion 4100 0 5 5 0 0 4
Cloud Coliseum 7200 10 10 0 10 0 0
Thundercloud Coliseum 6400 5 5 0 7 0 7
Treasure Cave 2600 0 6 0 0 0 0
Artifact Merchant 3000 5 0 0 0 0 0
Fortress
NOTES:
- Wrestler's Arena boosts the Brawler growth by +6
- Number of Defenders defending the town with the Guard Post = 2*TownLevel*Month
- Also, the City Hall, Capitol, Fort, Citadel and Castle cost normally
Building Gold Wood Ore Crystal Gems Mercury Sulfur
Shield Barracks 1100 0 10 0 0 0 0
Shield Halls 5700 5 6 6 0 5 0
Blade Barracks 2100 10 0 0 0 3 0
Blade Halls 5000 0 10 7 2 0 0
Bear Pens 3300 12 9 0 0 0 0
Blackbear Pens 4600 12 15 0 0 0 0
Fighting Ring 2600 5 0 6 0 0 0
Fighting Square 4300 3 3 0 6 5 0
Runic Chapel 3750 2 2 3 3 0 3
Runic Temple 4750 0 5 0 8 0 5
Clan Halls 4400 0 0 16 0 0 0
Clan Palace 4200 0 0 7 7 0 0
Lava Fissure 6000 0 7 0 0 7 10
Magma Rift 5500 0 9 0 0 5 10
Wrestler's Arena 1600 3 3 0 0 0 0
Runic Sanctuary 500 0 2 0 1 0 0
Guard Post 1100 8 0 0 0 0 0
SPELLS
Destructive Magic
Spell Mana None Basic Advanced Expert
Eldritch Arrow 4 45+10*SP 55+12*SP 65+14*SP 75+16*SP
Stone Spikes 5 28+8*SP 36+10*SP 44+12*SP 52+14*SP
Lightning Bolt 5 14+14*SP 18+18*SP 22+22*SP 26+26*SP
Ice Bolt 6 66+12*SP 96+14*SP 126+16*SP 156+18*SP
Fireball 10 14+14*SP 18+18*SP 22+22*SP 26+26*SP
Circle of Winter 11 66+12*SP 96+14*SP 126+16*SP 156+18*SP
Firewall 17 11+11*SP 15+15*SP 19+19*SP 23+23*SP
Chain Lightning 16 20+20*SP 28+28*SP 36+36*SP 44+44*SP
Meteor Shower 19 64+13*SP 72+17*SP 80+21*SP 88+25*SP
Armageddon 17 22+22*SP 28+28*SP 34+34*SP 40+40*SP
Implosion 18 125+20*SP 150+30*SP 175+40*SP 200+50*SP
Deep Freeze 12 30+21*SP 40+27*SP 50+33*SP 60+39*SP
Armageddon's Rock Damage: 18+18*SP, 23+23*SP, 28+28*SP, 33+33*SP
Deep Freeze's Physical Damage Increase: 1%+1%*SP, 1.67%+1.67%*SP, 2.33%+2.33%*SP, 3%+3%*SP
Light Magic
Spell Mana None Basic Advanced Expert
Divine Strength 3 45%+1%*SP 60%+1%*SP 75%+1%*SP 90%+1%*SP
Haste 4 16% 19%+0.5%*SP 22%+1%*SP 25%+1.5%*SP
Cleansing 10 20%+1.5%*SP 40%+1.5%*SP 60%+1.5%*SP 80%+1.5%*SP (Base Chance)
Endurance 6 2+0.1*SP 4+0.2*SP 6+0.3*SP 8+0.4*SP
Righteous Might 6 2+0.1*SP 4+0.2*SP 6+0.3*SP 8+0.4*SP
Deflect Missile 6 19%+0.6%*SP 34%+0.6%*SP 49%+0.6%*SP 64%+0.6%*SP
Resurrection 15 60+25*SP 120+31*SP 180+37*SP 240+43*SP
Word of Light 13 100+7*SP 110+10*SP 120+13*SP 130+16*SP
Regeneration has no change.
Magic Immunity has no change.
Teleport has no change.
Divine Vengeance has no change, but remember that it has actually been weakened by 30% this way!
Resurrection reduces target HP by 5% instead of 10%
Dark Magic
Spell Mana None Basic Advanced Expert
Weakness 3 55%-1%*SP 40%-1%*SP 25%-1%*SP 10%-1%*SP
Slow 4 17%+0.2%*SP 22%+0.4%*SP 27%+0.6%*SP 32%+0.8%*SP
Sorrow 5 0.8125+0.0375*SP 1.625+0.075*SP 2.5+0.1125*SP 3.25+0.15*SP
Vulnerability 5 2.5+0.05*SP 3+0.1*SP 3.5+0.15*SP 4+0.2*SP
Suffering 5 2+0.1*SP 4+0.2*SP 6+0.3*SP 8+0.4*SP
Confusion 9 35%+0.5%*SP 54%+0.6%*SP 73%+0.7%*SP 90%+0.8%*SP
Unholy Word 14 100+7*SP 110+10*SP 120+13*SP 130+16*SP
Vampirism 11 20%+0.5%*SP 30%+1%*SP 40%+1.5%*SP 50%+2%*SP
Decay has a damage of: 50+10*Power
Confusion has a duration of: 0.5*Power
Frenzy is the same, only that its mana is increased to 16 from 15
Puppet Master is the same, only that its mana is increased to 19 from 18
Vampirism has a duration of: 0.5*Power
Summoning Magic
Spell Mana None Basic Advanced Expert
Fist of Wrath 5 20+11*SP 28+14*SP 36+17*SP 44+20*SP
Raise Dead 9 60+21*SP 110+26*SP 160+31*SP 210+36*SP
Arcane Crystal 8 60+12*SP 80+17*SP 100+22*SP 120+27*SP
Wasp Swarm Dam 5 24+4*SP 30+6*SP 36+8*SP 42+10*SP
ATB Reduction: 0.05+0.005*SP 0.14+0.006*SP 0.32+0.008*SP 0.5+0.01*SP
Blade Barrier 11 50+7*SP 75+10*SP 100+13*SP 125+16*SP (Health)
Summon Elementals 16 1*SP 1.5*SP 2*SP 2.5*SP
Summon Hive 15 25 50 100 150 (Health)
Arcane Armor 20 15%+1%*SP 25%+1%*SP 35%+1%*SP 45%+1%*SP
Health: 500+50*SP 600+60*SP 700+70*SP 800+80*SP
Fire Trap - One Mine Damage: 60+13*SP
Raise Dead reduces target HP by 10% instead of 20%
Summon Phoenix has the following stats:
Attack: 11+1*Lvl
Defense: 11+1*Lvl
Min Damage: 15*SP
Max Damage: 30*SP
Health: 500+50*SP
Initiative: 15
Speed: 9
Runic Magic
Costs:
Rune of Berserking - 2 Ore, 1 Mercury
Rune of Charge - 2 Wood, 1 Sulfur
Rune of Exorcism - 1 Ore, 1 Sulfur
Rune of Magic Control - 1 Wood, 1 Gem
Rune of Elemental Immunity - 1 Wood, 1 Mercury
Rune of Etherealness - 1 Ore, 1 Crystal
Rune of Resurrection - 2 Ore, 2 Gem
Rune of ThunderClap - 2 Wood, 1 Crystal
Rune of Battle Rage - 2 Mercury, 2 Gem
Rune of Dragon Form - 2 Crystal, 2 Sulfur
(yes, they were too cheap IMO)
The Starting army will be modified as well, something like this: (all those numbers are multiplied with the growth to find out the number of creatures you get)
Tier1: min = 0.34; max = 0.47
Tier2: min = 0.3; max = 0.41
Tier3: min =-0.36; max = 0.24
SPECIALISTS: (they have three stacks of these creatures)
Tier1: min = 0.2; max = 0.41
Tier2: min = 0.17; max = 0.37
Tier3: min = 0.168;max = 0.34
I am almost sure NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY, will agree with this, because they're all used with the classic "silly" way of uber high tiers and almost useless low tiers.
You can't believe how hard was to balance all this stuff, so please, at least appreciate my work - since I know nobody would agree with me, I ask you to at least not flame me or anything.
____________
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted October 03, 2008 07:35 PM |
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Quote:
I am almost sure NOBODY, and I repeat, NOBODY, will agree with this, because they're all used with the classic "silly" way of uber high tiers and almost useless low tiers.
You can't believe how hard was to balance all this stuff, so please, at least appreciate my work - since I know nobody would agree with me, I ask you to at least not flame me or anything
Why are you so pessimist,Ash ?
All can consider me very crazy with what I will say now:
This idea is really nice
and I'm talking SIRIOUSly,this idea is nice
To be real,the last year a created a list with all HoMM 5 creatures (just for doing something) and my stats of them were like Asheera's,really
So anyone can consider me crazy but this idea is really nice
Another "intresting" thing :
I have a crazy idea for H6,and I will post it fast...because Heroes 6 can appear from second to second
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 03, 2008 07:38 PM |
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Wow thanks Razor, this was unexpected.
I really thought nobody would like this idea
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted October 03, 2008 07:50 PM |
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Quote:
I really thought nobody would like this idea
Hey,your idea won't be hated,I predict this  - this is seriously
(but well,not all my predictions are real ,and probably someone will say "it sucks" only to destroy all my predictions  - this is [j\k]
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted October 03, 2008 08:01 PM |
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This seem to be very nice and fun. It's not that different than the current situation.
I don't know if anyway else feels like me, but it's fun that your Giants can kill 100 peasants like nothing, it's fun to get to the later parts of the game and to see that the stack of pixies that won all your creeping battles is now already useless. The progress from a tier to tier shows you how strong you've become, and that is a fun thing in the game. There's something exciting in it.
On the other hand, it's interesting also this way. I think it's more balanced, too.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted October 03, 2008 08:05 PM |
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Wow. Seriously a lot of writing. I think it would be great.  I suggest a QP also. 
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2008 08:06 PM |
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One of the main things I want to see (other than the obvious things) in HoMM6 is a change in the standard tier system - doing something similar to what you have (or maybe something slightly less extreme) to each faction, or even doing away with the standard idea of tiers, upgrades, upgrade choices etc.. Taking this further, you could do significantly different things to each faction - I know this makes things harder to balance, but it could make things more interesting. Basically you would be aiming for a more realistic unit system. In fact, you can add realism without changing things too much - you just change the stats around to better reflect the armour strength, ability to avoid attacks and so on. I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to do here - were you trying to add realism, or just remove the large differences in creature power?
PS I wasn't around when it happened, so I never got a chance to say: congratulations to GL + Mytical for the moderatorship! 
PPS QP
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 03, 2008 08:13 PM |
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Requesting permission to mod this into the game 
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 03, 2008 09:08 PM |
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@Gnoll_Mage: Yes, I made it more "real". Units with high armor now have higher Defense than the others, and it has nothing to do with the tier (for example, before the Shadow Matriarch had more defense than a Squire ). Still, some hit points are a little ridiculous (again Shadow Matriarch versus Squire), because of balance reasons of course.
Also in my system it would be interesting what to upgrade (which tier), because most of the time you won't be able to upgrade everything. It is also very significant to upgrade, since the upgraded tier 1s are almost as strong (very little weaker) than unupgraded tier 7s, so you'll have to choose wisely each time you want to upgrade (this also means the unupgraded tier 1s won't be useless and immediately upgraded anymore)
@Cepheus: I already have the creature .xdb files modified Let me pack them into a Mod and I'll make them download-able (ok, it's here)
However, I didn't make the DefaultStats.xdb (in fact, I made it but before Patch 3.1 so it's useless now) so feel free to do it. I'll also help you and provide the "banks" (the battle sites) in a txt file (just copy-paste the whole file in the <Banks> section), since they should be re-balanced with the new creatures (and they're very tedious to do). Also the level 1-3 dwellings have some guards now (one unupgraded stack, one upgraded and one alternate, of the respective level), because they're more useful now.
So the only thing left would be to use that function of mine for neutral generation instead of the classic way, and it will be playable (hmm, the Orcs aren't done as well )
This Mod also has some more detailed descriptions about Battle Sites and some other things.
Anyway feel free to use only parts of this Mod or modify it.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2008 09:46 PM |
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Yes, you can take realism too far, you have to make sure to keep it balanced and enjoyable to play. The disadvantage of doing something like what you've done is that it's going to take some getting used to - we're used to attack, damage etc. going up with defence, HP etc. (in a general sense), whereas in your idea there is little correlation and the general statistics pattern of some of your creatures simply doesn't fit within the current game structure. Now that I think about it, even for the players who are new to the series, I have a suspicion that not having fairly well-defined levels may make the game less enjoyable / harder to play.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 03, 2008 09:47 PM |
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Wow impressive work 
Even though I am an even more freak than you Ash (multiple dwellings, etc) and in your system, it seems the Horned Demon (for example) population are still marginally weaker (well the upgrades are close) than the higher tiers, but not at all compared to how it was previously. I never took the time to do the math though.
Also if anyone complains that peasants are still too powerful (for example!!!) you can always just half their potential and add to growth, it will be similar
I have a question though: how does that translate to the spellcasters? Are they better now? (not that I wouldn't want to, Nival nerfed them too much already  )
PS: you really had to use 6666 as the Arch Demon's power?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 03, 2008 09:49 PM |
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@Gnoll_Mage: But it doesn't matter that some higher tier creatures have lower attack and defense than some lower tier ones, they are still overall stronger
@TheDeath:Quote:
I have a question though: how does that translate to the spellcasters? Are they better now? (not that I wouldn't want to, Nival nerfed them too much already )
Yes they are better now
Quote:
PS: you really had to use 6666 as the Arch Demon's power?
lol
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 03, 2008 11:54 PM |
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The only bad thing about this it that it can ruin the RPG part. The gap arrives from that, the difference on 1 and 2 is small, but 1 and 3 is bigger. This is what creates the lv7 tiers power, nothing more.
Besides, why could you not post it in a litte eayer way to read? The current build ups will and i hope will be scrappe or changed to the next game. Heck i hope 2 upgrades on same stage is removed.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 04, 2008 01:04 AM |
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personally, I think what should make the strength of the small tiers is either their number (like skeletons) or their abilities (like imps)
of course they could be a bit stronger, but not even the horned demon is close to be as useless as the H2/H3 peasant.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 04, 2008 02:03 AM |
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It's a good point. Certain abilities are useful throughout the game, and first-level creatures can provide these.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 04, 2008 12:24 PM |
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First of all, I need to comment on the tone of the original post. I know it can be frustrating to post your ideas when you've put a lot of work into it and people then just discard it, but honestly, when you put thing up here, you should do it with an open mind to what people say - and if you want to save yourself the dissapointment, then put some of it up before you've done ALL the factions to test the waters.
Anyway, enough about that.
Anyway, as to the sugested changes, I am slightly bemused that from your initial description of the post, I thought you would have done major changes to the stats of the creatures, and then when I look into it, I see that what you've actually done is only changing the Attack and Defence stats (by and large at least).
Now my first reaction was that I didn't agree with you: I don't think level 1 and level 7 creatures should be closer to each other. Level 7 creatures are already a lot less powerful in Heroes 5 than they were in Heroes 3 (although admittedly, this is also due to the in this regard quite imbalanced Hero direct attack).
However, in a way, I do think I agree with you, in the sense that I come to the same conclusion as you do albeit from another approach. My issue is not that I think the difference between level 1 and 7's are too great - I think the difference is needed, otherwise, why bother to waste money and ressources on level 7's, not to mention the difference it makes to have a level 7 neutral stack on the map and a low-level stack. My issue is rather that I think the 5 % damage increase/reduction for each Attack/Deffence point is too much.
Let's look for instance at the Attack skill: It offers a 5 % / 10 % / 15 % damage bonus. Great, right? Nah! That's a meager +1 / +2 / +3 Attack stat which in fact makes Attac rank as the worst skill in the game in my book (its only saving grace are some excellent perks like Blood Frenzy and Retribution)! Let's take an average Might Hero who has 30 % of his stats channeled into Attack. At level 20, Enlightenment will have earned him +10 stats, 3 of which will have gone into Attack, effectively providing him the same bonus as the Attack skill provides, and besides that another 7 skills on his other primary stats plus of course the XP bonus! For a Might hero with 45 % chance for attack to occur, the same is true already at level 14! Furthermore, it's ironic that one perk in Destructive Magic, Searing Flames, offers you the same attack bonus as two skill levels in Attack!
So, what I'd suggest was rather to decrease the effect of Attack and Defence stats - say, something like +/- 2,5 % Damage, or +/- 3 % Damage. In this way, stats on units could stay as they are, so that Peasant still Has Attack of 1 and Archangel has Attack of 30 - or even a bit more - but the difference in effect would be less. Of course, some other things would need to change - in order not to make Might heroes too weak, a similar scaling of Spellpower and Knowledge would have to be made - and then possibly all Heroes would gain 2 new stats at each level instead of just 1.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 04, 2008 03:20 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 15:27, 04 Oct 2008.
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First, in this post I wanted to share how my dream Heroes would be like and how it should be, even though I know that in H3 the gaps were even bigger (I didn't play H3 but I heard about this)
This is how I would like it, even though the "classic" way is completely different
Quote:
Anyway, as to the sugested changes, I am slightly bemused that from your initial description of the post, I thought you would have done major changes to the stats of the creatures, and then when I look into it, I see that what you've actually done is only changing the Attack and Defence stats (by and large at least).
Actually that's not true at all. I made the stats of all creatures from ZERO starting point.
First, I considered an attack and defense of 10 as "normal", and armored creatures would get more defense than 10, etc (and level 7 creatures who are big and strong).
Then I had to consider the costs of a full week to be around the same as now (apparently, it is a little more expensive - and it's fine, it's more interesting if you don't buy all upgraded creatures). With this whole sum in mind, I had to divide by 7, and change the whole costs a bit, so that tier 1s are still weaker than tier 2s and so on...
I came to the conclusion that a weekly growth of unupgraded tier 1s should be around 1400 Gold, tier 2s around 1560 Gold, and so on until we reach the tier 7s which should be around 2200 Gold (yes, I consider 1 rare resource as 250 Gold). The upgraded tier 1s came around 2200 Gold as well, tier 2s around 2320 Gold, and so on until we reach the tier 7s which are around 3100 Gold.
After this, I tried to make the total weekly of all tiers Hit Points and Damage the same as now. Apparently, they are around 30% more both, but it's not that bad, seeing as it's extremely difficult to re-create stats and shape them to fit a previous model. Believe me, it's at least three times harder than simply creating stats from scratch yourself.
Once I got one faction done, though, things became easier, as I had a model of mine to follow. Still, there are so many creatures in H5 that the other factions took more than I expected (believe me or not, I worked on this balance for more than a month)
Oh and about Att and Def: I simply compared them with a value of 10 and used the 5% increase to balance them. That means a creature with 15 Attack and 8 Defense would be considered 25% stronger than normal, divided by 10% from the defense penalty, which means it's 13% stronger from Att&Def (this means that either the damage is decreased by 13%, or an ability which is around 13% considered by me is missing than from another creature which has less Att&Def than this one)
I also had to take the abilities into consideration, of course, and since they can't be judged objectively (well, most of them) I had to check and re-check the stats multiple times.
And finally, I decided to give the spellcasters as unique spells as possible. This means that I tried not to share them between factions (like it was with Fireball which was casted by the Pit Fiend, ArchMage AND Rune Keeper)
About the buldings, I encountered the same difficult thing: I had to make sure that the total gold and resources for a faction are around the same as now, while still keeping the building costs fair among themselves. I remember I had to re-make the whole faction three times to get it right, and I'm pretty satisfied with the results. Even the total upgraded dwelling for tier 1 (which means the unupgraded building is included as well!) costs around the same as the unupgraded tier 7, and this is fine, since you get almost the same weekly "power" of creatures this way.
Also this time I had to take faction-specific costs, unlike for creatures. The thing is, the Nival Haven Gold costs are simply a lot higher than Sylvan's, and I wanted to keep this pattern as well.
So this is my story of how I created all those stats, it has nothing to do with Nival's stats (if some creatures have the same damage output it's just a coincidence, since the growth for example is also probably modified!), except the fact that I was inspired by the "HP/Damage" ratio of the creatures, so I would make the tanks as tanks and the fragile units as fragile units
Quote:
I think the difference is needed, otherwise, why bother to waste money and ressources on level 7's, not to mention the difference it makes to have a level 7 neutral stack on the map and a low-level stack.
The only problem is that you are used to the classic system.
I mean, no, you don't "waste" money. Consider if all of the tiers were equal, would you build only one dwelling because the other one will provide you no bonus in "power"? No, because it will still provide you a larger army, because you'll have MORE creatures.
In my system, the high level dwellings are indeed more expensive, because the high level tiers are still stronger than the low level ones. The numbers probably aren't perfectly balanced, but I'm pretty satisfied with them, since, as I said above, the tier 1 dwellings (both upgraded and not, summed up) cost around the same as the tier 7 unupgraded dwelling, and this is fine since they provide almost the same power in a week population. The same "balance" applies to other tiers as well (as you can see, the tier 1 upgraded structure is more expensive than the tier 2 one because, the tier 1 upgrades the creatures MORE than the tier 2... still, considering both unupgraded and upgraded structures, the tier 1 is still a little inferior, and the costs are LOWER)
Let's consider the Dungeon tier 1 and 2 dwellings for this as an example (let's take only Gold for now).
Tier 1 unupgraded Dwelling costs 1200 Gold -> provides 1400 Gold weekly worth of creatures.
Tier 2 unupgraded Dwelling costs 2200 Gold -> provides 1560 Gold weekly worth of creatures. (11% stronger than tier 1)
Tier 1 upgraded Dwelling costs 5800 Gold -> upgrades the tier 1 creatures by 60% (2250 (Assassins) / 1400 (Scouts))
Tier 2 upgraded Dwelling costs 5200 Gold -> upgrades the tier 2 creatures by 48% (2320 (Furies) / 1560 (Maidens))
As you can see, to upgrade the tier 1 dwelling costs MORE than to upgrade the tier 2 one, because it upgrades more (60% vs 48%)
Still, the Tier 1 total Dwelling is 1200 + 5800 = 7000 Gold, while the Tier 2 total Dwelling is 2200 + 5200 = 7400. This is because Furies are still stronger (in a week population) than Assassins (2320 > 2250)
Another example:
Tier 7 unupgraded dwelling costs 6200 Gold -> provides 1950 + 250 (1 Sulfur) = 2200 Gold weekly worth of creatures.
Tier 1 total Dwelling costs 7000 Gold (see above) -> provides 2250 Gold weekly worth of creatures.
As you can see, it's pretty balanced compared to other tiers as well.
As for your other "problem" regarding neutral stacks, with the current system it will be problematic I agree. However, as I said in the first post, if the neutrals were generated by power rather than by growth (and this means mixed neutrals are perfectly fine as well) it will work out. I already managed to write a function that generates neutrals based on power and even splits them into mixed stacks at times, it can be found here
Not to mention the current system with growth is already flawed: it doesn't take into account boosts from special buildings, and the Brawlers for example are weaker than other tier 4s.
Generating neutrals based on power is simply the best way IMO (if the power value of creatures is written correctly, something which Nival failed I assure you - after I made these tests, I also looked up at Nival's values, and trust me, some things are VERY imbalanced. Power is one of them. High level creatures have less power than they should. If you don't believe me, use the power value and make a virtual comparison between Dragons and some tier 1 creatures. (for example, if the dragon has ten times the power, then consider ten tier 1 creatures versus the dragon, etc). You'll see that the Dragon is WAY better, because the power is too low compared to its potential.)
EDIT: btw, that function I linked to has the power values hard-coded and fit the Nival ones, because there's no "GetPowerOfCreature" or something similar function available Damn Nival...
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 04, 2008 04:02 PM |
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I have not read all the comments in this thread, so sorry if I repeat things. But here is my comment.
Very interesting concept and changes. I have not read the whole post but I got your intention. You are fixing (or trying to fix) one of the major problems of Heroes. Okay, for some players it's not a problem but a feature or a main attribute of the games gameplay. But I think it is a vital and crucial part of balancing the game and to strike a balance between development of your army and conserving the use of your low-level units. Heroes 4 tried it rudimentally in giving all units unique abilities and reducing the tiers but failed in both.
I tried it in ICTC (search for 'Pallas') with tier-changing upgrades to get some army development, usefulness and varying strategies (e.g. offensive Spearwielder developing in defensive Phalanx, defensive Healer in offensive Mystic) throughout all the parts of the game. But I restricted myself to one unit per tier if fully developed. So I have weak tier-1-units aswell. So maybe I will revise my concept again. But otherwise wouldn't it be boring to develop all your units into strong units and not have 'weak' low-level units in the end aswell? After all strength is a very good distinguishing mark between units. If all your units in your final army roughly the same strength you have to find other characteristics to differentiate them, to make each unit unique and to offer various strategies and tactics.
It's not an easy task I think.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 04, 2008 04:05 PM |
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The creatures are still very different in power (A dragon is still much stronger than a tier 1 creature). The Stacks are the ones that are similar in power now.
However, with upgrades (and I don't think you'll be able to upgrade everything most of the time), it will be interested in which paths you take and specialize (i.e. what you choose to upgrade) - this will also not make unupgraded low level units almost completely useless as it is now (mostly you upgrade them ASAP)
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 04, 2008 04:09 PM |
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Quote:
The creatures are still very different in power (A dragon is still much stronger than a tier 1 creature). The Stacks are the ones that are similar in power now.
Yes, I know. I was just speaking more generally about the 'problem'.
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