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| Thread: Upgrades Analysis |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 05:44 PM |
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Quote:
I hope all this makes some sort of sense. 
Yes it does
But as you said there are abilities that are stronger than others, even though both are universal
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 15, 2008 05:49 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 17:50, 15 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
Why would that change anything? I'd guess that it would make things even more difficult to balance halfway (albeit not impossible, of course)
Simple it would end talking about balancing the alternatives because the 2nd upgrade will be obviously a better one then the 1st. the only thing to balance left would be overall factions strenght.
Quote:
I hope all this makes some sort of sense.
Not just some sense it makes complete sense 
And i ask again why not to increase the hire cost of unbalanced creatures
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 05:51 PM |
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And i ask again why not to increase the hire cost of unbalanced creatures
Why not make them weaker?
Increasing the cost is not a good idea IMO, when you have too many gold you'll still be able to be IMBA
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2008 05:53 PM |
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Yeah, I guess one point is that if you rate them in a two-dimensional universe:
General (best)
Somewhat Situational
Quite Situational
Very Situational (worst)
And in other "dimension":
Strong (best)
Medium
Weak (worst)
You could get some sort of numeric evaluation. Of course, it still does not tell us which is best - say, is a Weak General ability better than a Strong but Very Situational ability? Maybe we could make a 5-point scale for each:
General = 5
Almost general = 4
Somewhat situational = 3
Quite situational = 2
Very situational = 1
And:
Very Strong = 5
Strong = 4
Medium = 3
Weak = 2
Very Weak = 1
Then we add the scores - so, let's say:
Arcane Archer - Force Arrow (Very strong = 5, General = 5, total score 10)
Master Hunter - Warding Arrow (Medium = 3, General = 5, total score = 8)
Wraith - Harm Touch (Medium = 3, Somewhat situational = 3, total score 6)
Banshee - Death Wail (Week = 2, Quite situational = 2, total score 4)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 15, 2008 06:06 PM |
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That's not enough.
As you already said how good some abilities like for instance Weakening Strike depend completely on the unit - if it were the Sprites that had it, things would look quite different.
Moreover I'd disagree with some of your assessments, for example, I don't think that the Vindicators are a viable alternative, simply because they lack initiative. A low initiative unit is better used with a passive defensive ability in my opinion, since it will be used much more often than the Cleave ability - except when you can Haste the unit and especially when you don't play against a DM faction.
Which is the reason why for the Zombies something like a Weakening Aura with CUMULATIVE effect (as in Weakening Strike) would be one hell of an ability.
For the Vindicators they should have swapped the Shield ability for the Dash ability to make it really offensive and a viable alternative.
But in principle I agree that the alternative options should be much more different. Like Necro level 1, for example.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2008 06:14 PM |
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It's true that the abilities strength in actuality also depend on the unit that caries them - but that's included in the normalization of the stats. For instance, the Zombie is going to have a crap rating because of its Initiative, so we can rate the Weakening Strike independant of that. But of course, we should maybe take into account whether an skill is passive or active, because an active skill by default is wasted on a slow unit and should rate lower - for instance, although Weakening Strike is cumulative and potentially quite potent, Weakening Aura comes out as the better (for the Zombie), because it's passive. Tricky indeed.
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Asheera
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Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 06:17 PM |
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Or take another ability: No Enemy Retaliation.
Isn't it a lot better for a fragile but deadly unit that can't resist a hit (Fury) than for a slow and high hp unit (Hydra)?
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 16, 2008 06:36 PM |
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Quote:
For the Vindicators they should have swapped the Shield ability for the Dash ability to make it really offensive and a viable alternative
I would give them Bash and there would be an choice between defensive Shield Other, and ofensive Cleave
Hey all are you interested more about talking about balance or making actually balanced alter upg
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 17, 2008 10:16 AM |
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Quote:
Or take another ability: No Enemy Retaliation.
Isn't it a lot better for a fragile but deadly unit that can't resist a hit (Fury) than for a slow and high hp unit (Hydra)?
Well, you can see it both ways I think. It's true that the No Retaliation ability is probably more crucial for the Fury than for the Hydra - but I think it's still a very important ability even for the Hydra. In fact, I don't think it's only a matter of the strength of the unit - for instance, remember the Heroes 3 Devil which had No Retaliation. There's little doubt that giving the Heroes 5 Devil No Retaliation would be a tremendous boost of this unit, even if it's pretty tough in itself.
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Hey all are you interested more about talking about balance or making actually balanced alter upg
I personally think it's important to realize WHAT balance is - and how we best achieve it - before we start to more or less randomly change units to make them more balanced.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted October 17, 2008 12:53 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 12:54, 17 Oct 2008.
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About your analysis, JollyJoker. Quite interresting, but one question(I quote, but remove the unimportant):
Quote:
The taskmaster will be:
sqrt(6.5/1.1*40/1.2)*0.9*1=12.63
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So the Guard is:
sqrt(5.5*1.5/1.15*35/1.35)*0.8*1=10.91
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That makes Furies:
sqrt(6/1.15*16/1.3*2*1.6)*1.6*1.6=36.70 (and now you know exactly why Furies are so much better than Minos )
Sisters are:
sqrt(5.5/1.15*21/1.25*2*1.6)*1.4*1.6=35.92
What does this mean: "sqrt(5.5*1.5/1.15*35/1.35)*0.8*1=10.91"?
I understand 5,5 , 1,5 , 35 and 0,8 beeing average damage value, double attack, hp and initiative,
but what does 1,15 and 1,35 mean? I understand that it's got something to do with attack and defence, but which math do you use?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 17, 2008 01:18 PM |
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He compared the unit's Attack and Defense against the "average level 4 unit", as he said here:Quote:
The modification makes sense only against a reference value of a standard attack or defense value, and here it makes sense to take something like an average unit. The average unit in H5 has something of attack 12 and defense 11. The average unit, on the other hand, is level 4, and the average level 4 is 9/8. You can make a case for both, but let's take the average level 4 for reference value.
And he used the 5% damage more/less per point formula.
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lucky_dwarf
Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
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posted October 17, 2008 02:41 PM |
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Well here its quite useful i mean blade of slaughter is best if creping you meet zounds and you can send cheap heroes to kill them and the vorpal sword is good for killing dragons and tier 7 without trouble
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 17, 2008 05:06 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 17:07, 17 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
Well, you can see it both ways I think. It's true that the No Retaliation ability is probably more crucial for the Fury than for the Hydra - but I think it's still a very important ability even for the Hydra.
Of course it's a very important ability for every creature, just that units with low hit points and high initiative benefit more from it (damage doesn't count in any way).
High Initiative -> You strike more, thus you'd receive more retaliations, therefore No Enemy Retaliation is excellent in this situation.
Low HP -> This is pretty self-explanatory. Furies (low HP) aren't meant to get hit at all, while the Hydra is used to absorb damage. I mean, if I had to choose between the Furies or the Hydras to get some damage, be sure I'd choose the Hydras since that's their specialty. That's what Taunt is for as well (for Warmongers)
And that's why the Furies are attacked first, and not the Hydras, because when damaging a stack of Furies you take away a LOT of damage done to your troops, while attacking Hydras doesn't benefit you as much, since they aren't as damaging as the Furies. Note that in this case it's irrelevant the tier and power of the creatures, because you won't kill the entire stack with one attack! (ok, let's consider you don't kill the whole Fury stack and waste your extra damage this way )
So it's better to target first the creatures with the highest Damage/HP ratio. Of course, in an average situation, because other factors might influence this as well
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted October 20, 2008 01:29 AM |
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Uhh one request...
When you've agreed on how much general 'stat' everything is worth, add another stat for cost difference, put it into html and hand it to the AoH squad, so when this thread dies its immortalized (like mine)
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 20, 2008 02:11 PM |
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But don't all upgrades cost the same?
These comparisons are between upgrades only, so the cost is not important.
I could try to make it in HTML but I don't think a table would be suitable for this.
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