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| Thread: Heroes of Might and Magic 6 - After the Earthquake |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Cepheus
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Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 19, 2008 12:06 AM |
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Neither Sareth nor Arantir are mentioned in this concept. So I don't see the correlation yet. What exactly is missing or false?
There is a large spell-like explosion of some sort at the end of Dark Messiah's evil (and hopefully canonical) ending (Sareth releases the Sovereign) which some seem to think could have caused this kind of world-changing destruction.
I think it was just a fancy-schmancy cinematic effect thrown in for the hell of it, though. 
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 19, 2008 12:41 AM |
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Oh, I see. This history is surely based on the good ending then. The earthquake has nothing to do with the evil ending and has other causes involving a completely new faction. But details are not worked out yet.
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B-E-T-A
Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
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posted October 19, 2008 12:35 PM |
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Good. My question was actually meant like an indirect way of asking "Have you played through both HoM&M5(+expansions) and Dark Messiah?"(No I haven't played dark messiah, just asking if you have) and that you have based the story aftet events of both games have ended.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 19, 2008 02:37 PM |
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Okay if this was your question than I have to answer "No, I don't". I've just played till the Zehir Campaign in original HoMM6 and do not own Dark Messiah. That's why the history isn't written by me but someone who has played both and knows the whole storyline, respectively.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2008 07:15 PM |
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I haven't read all this yet, I find the idea of the 12 factions divided by 4 races intriguing, but I have a couple of thoughts on the line-ups that I'd just like to throw in:
Cult Of Elrath and Knighthood seems to close to each other to me thematically. Most of the creatures seem like copies of each other, and there's no clear logic in why one creature goes in one camp and the other in the other (Squire particularly seems ill chosen, maybe if you re-labeled him Crusader to underscore the religious theme).
Zombie and Ghoul seem a bit superfluous. Spectre doesn't fit in Dark Elf town anyway - so move it back in Necropolis.
Switch Hunter and Nymph. The Light theme is all about Elven units, whereas the Nature line-up is about the beasts. I'd even say move Sprite also to Nature. And what's a Pioneer?
Djinn with Orcs? Meh. And Naga and Rakshasa in same town?
Wizards as a race? That does not make sense to me. As I see it, there is only one combination that makes sense if you want 4 core races - and Wizard is not one of them. My suggestion: Move the Acadmy town as the third human line-up (merge Knighthood and Cult), put the Warlocks back with the Dark Elves - that seems like a much stronger theme, and again, Dungeon and Dark Elf are too close to each other thematically.
As for the 4th core race, personally, I'd expand the Dwarven theme. There's plenty of room for it. Mountain Dwarves = your current Mountain faction. Deep Dwarves = beastly faction = your Dungeon minus the Warlock theme. And as for the third ... think creatively. Perhaps a Forge theme: Dwarves + Gnomes + Machines (you have some left-over mechanical units from the Knighthood Faction).
That's just my 5 cents. 
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 19, 2008 08:40 PM |
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Thanks for your comment. I'm open-minded to all improvement suggestions. So, let's see. Firstly the creature line-ups heavily correlate to the history and storyline so any major adjustment affect both and had to fit in both line-up and history. So let's see.
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Cult Of Elrath and Knighthood seems to close to each other to me thematically.
Unfortunately that's true. That really needs some rework. Suggestions are welcome.
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Zombie and Ghoul seem a bit superfluous. Spectre doesn't fit in Dark Elf town anyway - so move it back in Necropolis.
Yes. The Zombies are there because for me they seem more logical than skeletons - necromancy in HoMM was always about rising undead from battle corpses and those have muscles, skin and flesh or did they shake it off when raised as undead? - and I liked the graphical analogy between HoMM5's peasants and zombies. But if I work with upgrades ghouls easily could be upgrades of zombies that would leave a tier free for ghosts. But I have to say also that I really like the idea of dark elf souls coming back as shadows or spectres even if it clashes with classical necromancy.
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The Light theme is all about Elven units, whereas the Nature line-up is about the beasts. I'd even say move Sprite also to Nature. And what's a Pioneer?
Pioneers are meant to be the builders and architects of the elves. There are elves in each theme because storywise the elves in Irollan follow each path likewise. Light - leaded by conservative counselors, Nature - Findans edict of balance, Dark - dark elf mindsets adjusted to a life in the woods.
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Djinn with Orcs? Meh. And Naga and Rakshasa in same town?
Do you remember Yog the barbarian?  Do you see a better place for nagas? As I said nagas and rakshasas will be different abilitywise.
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Wizards as a race? That does not make sense to me. As I see it, there is only one combination that makes sense if you want 4 core races - and Wizard is not one of them.
The sense is that I wanted each race resembling one of the four HoMM1 factions or themes, so humans - knights, orcs - steppe, elves - woods, wizards - warlock and mage theme.
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My suggestion: Move the Acadmy town as the third human line-up (merge Knighthood and Cult)
If I have Academy, Elraths Knights and Necromancers as the three human themes which of them schould be the neutral one? I can't imagine priests and angels in the same army with the undead. So I see only two solutions. First I'll give the neutral path alternative upgrades depending on whether you choose to mix with "bright" or "dark" units or stay "neutral" (e.g. Angel -> Angel of Death if mixed with undead). Second I change the history so that the Silver Cities gain control of the human empire and become the neutral or middle path.
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put the Warlocks back with the Dark Elves - that seems like a much stronger theme, and again, Dungeon and Dark Elf are too close to each other thematically.
I would say you're just used to it at the moment because dark elves and underground are a classical combination. But in my concept dark elves are "dark" elves in darkened woods.
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As for the 4th core race, personally, I'd expand the Dwarven theme. There's plenty of room for it. Mountain Dwarves = your current Mountain faction. Deep Dwarves = beastly faction = your Dungeon minus the Warlock theme. And as for the third ... think creatively. Perhaps a Forge theme: Dwarves + Gnomes + Machines (you have some left-over mechanical units from the Knighthood Faction).
That would affect the storyline. Where or from whom the dwarves get this machines and technics? And why? Furthermore this faction/race is meant to resemble the warlock theme in one of its paths as I said before. So the dwarves are meant to only be a side-theme of the wizards. But maybe it could be a faction of minotaurs now freed through the earthquake from their slavery. Instead of the wizards the minotaurs could ally with the few surviving dwarves instead then. Hm...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2008 09:30 PM |
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Firstly the creature line-ups heavily correlate to the history and storyline so any major adjustment affect both and had to fit in both line-up and history.
Yes, I'm aware of this problem. I've never been very strong on the whole campaign-history department etc., I've always been more about what works for me as themes and races, so obviously, there may come clashes here witch cannot been resolved within the frame you suggest.
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Cult Of Elrath and Knighthood seems to close to each other to me thematically.
Unfortunately that's true. That really needs some rework. Suggestions are welcome.
Well, my best suggestion would be to merge them into one unit, which would essentially be the current Haven. However, I might consider moving the Griffin to Nature town (ala Heroes 4) and then make a fully Human line-up:
Peasant
Archer
Squire
Crusader
Priest
Paladin (mounted)
Angel
Then I would move the Battering Ram and Trebuchet to a fully mechanically themed town like mentioned previously.
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Zombie and Ghoul seem a bit superfluous. Spectre doesn't fit in Dark Elf town anyway - so move it back in Necropolis.
Yes. The Zombies are there because for me they seem more logical than skeletons - necromancy in HoMM was always about rising undead from battle corpses and those have muscles, skin and flesh or did they shake it off when raised as undead? - and I liked the graphical analogy between HoMM5's peasants and zombies. But if I work with upgrades ghouls easily could be upgrades of zombies that would leave a tier free for ghosts. But I have to say also that I really like the idea of dark elf souls coming back as shadows or spectres even if it clashes with classical necromancy.
I don't see a problem with Zombies being level 1, my main concern would be that Zombie and Ghoul unit would be too similar.
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The Light theme is all about Elven units, whereas the Nature line-up is about the beasts. I'd even say move Sprite also to Nature. And what's a Pioneer?
Pioneers are meant to be the builders and architects of the elves. There are elves in each theme because storywise the elves in Irollan follow each path likewise. Light - leaded by conservative counselors, Nature - Findans edict of balance, Dark - dark elf mindsets adjusted to a life in the woods.
I see. I think actually I'd take it to the extreme and make the line-ups like this:
LIGHT NATURE
Pioneer Sprite
Blade Dancer Wolf
Hunter Satyr
Druid Griffin
Valkyrie (Pegasus cavalry!) Nymph
Unicorn Cavalry Treant
Dragon Phoenix
Notice, that in this incarnation, the "Humanoids" of the Nature town would be Sprites, Nymphs and Satyrs! Notice also how the Light faction becomes the Elven equivalent of the Haven town, something I find interesting.
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Djinn with Orcs? Meh. And Naga and Rakshasa in same town?
Do you remember Yog the barbarian? Do you see a better place for nagas? As I said nagas and rakshasas will be different abilitywise.
I noticed your comment about the Nagas, but still, I don't think this is a good choice. I'd say: Stick with Djinns and Wizards, they go well with each other, historically and thematically - although admittedly, Djinn and Sphinx goes well also. In fact, I reckon you moved the Wizards back to the Mountain theme? I guess in the light of that, it does make some sense, even if I don't agree it's the best solution, personally, I love the arabian Academy theme, I think it's absolutely perfect for that particular faction, but of course that's subjective.
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Wizards as a race? That does not make sense to me. As I see it, there is only one combination that makes sense if you want 4 core races - and Wizard is not one of them.
The sense is that I wanted each race resembling one of the four HoMM1 factions or themes, so humans - knights, orcs - steppe, elves - woods, wizards - warlock and mage theme.
Hmmm - haven't we moved quite far from Heroes 1 by now!?
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My suggestion: Move the Acadmy town as the third human line-up (merge Knighthood and Cult)
If I have Academy, Elraths Knights and Necromancers as the three human themes which of them schould be the neutral one? I can't imagine priests and angels in the same army with the undead. So I see only two solutions. First I'll give the neutral path alternative upgrades depending on whether you choose to mix with "bright" or "dark" units or stay "neutral" (e.g. Angel -> Angel of Death if mixed with undead). Second I change the history so that the Silver Cities gain control of the human empire and become the neutral or middle path.
Academy would be the neutral faction of cause. Academy is all about Knowledge, which is impartial to good or evil. To me, that would make perfect sense.
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put the Warlocks back with the Dark Elves - that seems like a much stronger theme, and again, Dungeon and Dark Elf are too close to each other thematically.
I would say you're just used to it at the moment because dark elves and underground are a classical combination. But in my concept dark elves are "dark" elves in darkened woods.
Ok, Dark Wood could work, even Swamp(!) for Dark Elves - reintroduce Hydras (and perhaps even Lizards) instead of the ungainly Bats (and Spectres, but you have your liberty there, I just like to stick with Undead in Necropolis).
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As for the 4th core race, personally, I'd expand the Dwarven theme. There's plenty of room for it. Mountain Dwarves = your current Mountain faction. Deep Dwarves = beastly faction = your Dungeon minus the Warlock theme. And as for the third ... think creatively. Perhaps a Forge theme: Dwarves + Gnomes + Machines (you have some left-over mechanical units from the Knighthood Faction).
That would affect the storyline. Where or from whom the dwarves get this machines and technics? And why? Furthermore this faction/race is meant to resemble the warlock theme in one of its paths as I said before. So the dwarves are meant to only be a side-theme of the wizards. But maybe it could be a faction of minotaurs now freed through the earthquake from their slavery. Instead of the wizards the minotaurs could ally with the few surviving dwarves instead then. Hm...
As I said, I have not looked into the storyline. My suggestions are based solely on the fact that in fantasy, we always have the 4 big races, namely Humans, Elves, Dwarves and then some beastly race - Orcs or whatever we call them. I know Dwarves are not popular in Heroes 3 world, but from fantasy lore, there would be amble room to introduce 3 Dwarf factions:
MOUNTAIN DWARVES (good): Mining theme, allied with Bears for instance, rune affinities, Thunderbirds or Metallic Dragons would be obvious picks for this faction also.
FORGE DWARVES (neutral): Smithy themes, inventors, possibly with Gnomes (notorious inventors! - in fact, I would remove Gremlin and Golem from the Wizards and move them here, and rename the Gremlin to Gnome), mechanical units, specilizes in War Machines also, Dragon Golem could make return, or Fire Dragon as we know it from Heroes 5 could og here.
DEEP DWARVES (evil): Dungeon theme, Duergar, beastly creatures like Manticores, Harpies and Minotaurs could be here, essentially the Heroes 3 Dungeon reincarnated.
I don't think I have time tonight, but tomorrow, I might, just for the fun of it, try to create alternative line-ups for 12 factions according to these schemes, just to see how the puzzles fit.
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Jiriki9
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Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted October 19, 2008 10:50 PM |
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I agree in Alci, with one point, wizards & dwarves together sounds strange...and Academy would indeed be perfect as neutral human faction, in between Cult of Elrath and Necromancers!
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted October 20, 2008 01:17 AM |
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I simply love the storyline. The way you ended all the events of Heroes 5 in a logical way, that makes a short calmness before starting a gigantic mess with the earthquake. This can be inserted right into Heroes 6. Seriously, a long time passed since I enjoyed reading a storyline like that. For that story, the rating of the thread is immediately changed to "inspiring".
About the factions themselves: I think that the idea can be fun to play with, but there should be some order done with the creatures themselves. I read the comments and found out that Alc already mentioned all the points I had in my mind. If we do it this way, there must be either upgrades system or at least one more faction.
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Ronin
Hired Hero
One cut, one life.
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posted October 20, 2008 05:52 PM |
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Very nice...
Hello everyone.
Very nice ideas, Snatch. I have to say that the way you destruct the system in order to construc it better is very interesting. I have noticed that you have formed just four generic groups. This make the player think that there are less factions, however, each generic race it's developed into a subfaction.
Although every faction generates three subfactions, many people could think they'll be the same, but they won't. So the game ends with twelve factions really.
Congratulations, Snatch. I like this idea.
Ronin
____________
The man who knows his fate, knows no fear.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 20, 2008 07:22 PM |
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Just for the fun of it - because I really liked this approach - I tried to create an alternative set of factions. This was done rather quickly, so it may not be exactly perfect, but it is an example of some different approaches to many of the same elements you have. Just to have a breath of fresh air I threw in a couple of changes like Swamp Dwelling Darkelves and Nautic Orcs. Don't even think WOW has that (yet). 
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B-E-T-A
Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
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posted October 21, 2008 11:41 AM |
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Edited by B-E-T-A at 11:46, 21 Oct 2008.
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That look like a good faction grouping, only thing is that they dosen't follow the story that much. But one thing I got to as: What's an Chromatic Dragon? And why did you add "Sea" to orcs? And the orcs dosen't look very orc like exept for the neutral, the others are plain demons and other creatures... Wasen't you the one who said he should add orcs to demonical faction as demons are a subgroup of orcs? Also where is the black dragon and medusa? And why the hell is the Efreets with the dwarves?!  AND YOU DON'T HAVE GREMLINS?! WHAT'S AN ACADEMY/TOWER/WIZARDS WITHOUT GREMLINS?! IT'S LIKE WATER WITHOUT WATER! Also, why not add dryads to your missing nature spot? I mean you have already added plenty of other humanoid forest creatures.
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alcibiades
Honorable
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posted October 21, 2008 07:28 PM |
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But one thing I got to as: What's an Chromatic Dragon?
Chromatic Dragons are coloured Dragons: White, Blue, Red, Green and Black Dragons.
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And why did you add "Sea" to orcs? And the orcs dosen't look very orc like exept for the neutral, the others are plain demons and other creatures... Wasen't you the one who said he should add orcs to demonical faction as demons are a subgroup of orcs?
I didn't comment on Demons and Orcs before. There is a paradox with Orc being an overall race for Demons, however, when Orcs in H5 lore is Humans infused with Demon blood.
As for the nautic theme (hence: Sea Orcs), that was just to make a suggestion for a theme for the final line-up that was a bit unique.
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Also where is the black dragon and medusa? And why the hell is the Efreets with the dwarves?! AND YOU DON'T HAVE GREMLINS?! WHAT'S AN ACADEMY/TOWER/WIZARDS WITHOUT GREMLINS?! IT'S LIKE WATER WITHOUT WATER! Also, why not add dryads to your missing nature spot? I mean you have already added plenty of other humanoid forest creatures.
As for Black Dragons: See above.
Medusae: Look for Siren if you want.
Efreets: The Forge faction allies with Fire creatures. Just like the Fire Dragon, the Efreet is a Fire spirit, hence the connection here.
Gremlins: Look for Gnomes.
Dryads could go in missing spot - I just forgot to add something there.
____________
What will happen now?
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shadowfury
Hired Hero
Blade of Vengeance
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posted October 21, 2008 07:37 PM |
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an earthquake?
a flood would be better
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 21, 2008 07:47 PM |
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WHAT'S AN ACADEMY/TOWER/WIZARDS WITHOUT GREMLINS?!
Ask Heroes II. Or IV.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 21, 2008 08:08 PM |
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I am seeing a more interristing approuce(renaming):
So now its:
*Civilasation
*Wild
*Nature
*Tecnology
What about adding Magic or Spirit? Orc could from ToTE could easly be spirit, a stable Society got little and nothing to do with Wizards and Necromancers. And who said Necromancers where evil? I can't image them black on the karma scale.
And the orcs only assosiation with demons are that they got demon blood, 50%. Created by the evil wizards during some mad war against whatever this christian story calls devils.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 24, 2008 04:50 PM |
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So, I was a bit short of time this week. But here are my comments to recent posts.
1. I really appreciate that you adapt my system. There are many kinds of different factions that you can create this way. So go on. But please have in mind that most of them won't fit in this particular concept with its rather detailed history/storyline. Make your own worlds with this or a similar system as you wish. But if you want to improve or help me to improve my earthquake concept it's most important that creature lines and storyline fit at the end. Some changes can be made to both but the principle has to stay the same.
@ Alcibiades
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Well, my best suggestion would be to merge them into one unit, which would essentially be the current Haven. However, I might consider moving the Griffin to Nature town (ala Heroes 4) and then make a fully Human line-up
It's not a bad idea. But a bit nut-picking: An Angel is no human, so it's not fully human.
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I don't see a problem with Zombies being level 1, my main concern would be that Zombie and Ghoul unit would be too similar.
I know. As I said: Maybe an upgrade system and both as the same unit.
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Notice also how the Light faction becomes the Elven equivalent of the Haven town, something I find interesting.
It is indeed. Wonderful idea.
But not really fitting into my earthquake concept. While my earthquake concept goes with races, you are going more with environment (cities, woods, plains, mountains). I like that and maybe I will create a faction system based on environment once also but it doesn't go very well with this earthquake concept and storyline.
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Hmmm - haven't we moved quite far from Heroes 1 by now!?
Deep in my heart I'm quite a traditionalist.
But why not stay to this four themes: city/town, plains, woods/wilderness, mountain/underground?
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Academy would be the neutral faction of cause. Academy is all about Knowledge, which is impartial to good or evil. To me, that would make perfect sense.
It does.
But according to HoMM5 and Ashan storyline: Would they work and live together with necromancers? And under what circumstances? That would be very important for the storyline.
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Ok, Dark Wood could work, even Swamp(!) for Dark Elves - reintroduce Hydras (and perhaps even Lizards) instead of the ungainly Bats (and Spectres, but you have your liberty there, I just like to stick with Undead in Necropolis).
I will think about it. But after Halloween I think. Too much bats and spiders around at the moment to stay objective. 
Solely dwarven faction would be possible. Even in this storyline. But only if we actually put academy to humans. And then we have still two problems:
a) Wizards <-> Necromancers (I don't know for sure, but didn't the wizards ban the necromancers? Why would they work together again?)
b) Where does the technology path come from? We need an explanation for the storyline.
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There is a paradox with Orc being an overall race for Demons, however, when Orcs in H5 lore is Humans infused with Demon blood.
If you consider that demons can walk on Ashan just extremely limited while orcs have no such restriction than it doesn't seem so paradox anymore.
@ GenieLord
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If we do it this way, there must be either upgrades system or at least one more faction.
I think I will implement an upgrade system. One more faction is planned but would be completely new and heavily involved in the storyline.
@ shadowfury
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a flood would be better
Why?
@ del_diablo
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What about adding Magic or Spirit?
As 5th faction? Why not. But there is much magic already (academy, necromancers). And Deep is more magic than technology too. If I had to think of dark technology then Frankenstein would come to my mind.
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And who said Necromancers where evil?
Not me. With good reason I just spoke about bright and dark and not good and evil ways.
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And the orcs only assosiation with demons are that they got demon blood, 50%.
And that is more association any other has. For me and my concept it's enough.
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Mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted October 24, 2008 10:28 PM |
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Very nice...
____________
Protection From Everything.
dota
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted October 26, 2008 12:47 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 12:49, 26 Oct 2008.
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I have also thought about an alternative lineup of factions, just as a suggestion. I made several changes. First of all, there are six instead of four factions now: Humans, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Wizards and Undead. I wanted to have undead as seperate faction, that's the reason...and magic as addition seemed good to me. Using the magic faction, I also changed the dark dwarven faction - putting Manticore and Minotaur to the wizards - and, mainly, the demonic Orcs. The demons are now no longe runited in one sub-faction, butyou find them both with the demonic Orcs and with the Black Guild of the Wizards. The idea here is, that the black guild, in search for more power, has (partly) focused on demon summoning.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 03:26 PM |
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Jiriki's proposal seems to be the closest to my taste.
Things that I would change:
Humans
Army Surgeon -> Corpsman - a better word for that meaning.
Nobility -> Citizens
Lords of Bandits -> Black Guild
Dwarves
Keepers -> Brotherhood
Fallen (sounds a bit too Necro) -> Cavern
Orcs
Watchmen -> Tribal
Tribal -> Barbarian
Then just switch the right and the middle columns.
Wizards
White Guild -> (something) Order
Grey Guild -> Academy
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