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| Thread: Summon Elementals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 26, 2008 01:36 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 02:10, 26 Oct 2008.
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Summon Elementals
Hey
I want to discuss or get opinion about
The Summon Elementals - Lvl 4 spell 17 Mana
Number of Summoned Elementals:
No Mastery B. Mastery A. Mastery E. Mastery
0.5 * SP 0.75 * SP 1 * SP 2 * SP
Elementals:
Fire Elemental Air Elemental Water Elemental Earth Elemental
 10 8 8 8
 5 6 8 11
 11 - 20 5 - 7 8 - 12 10 - 14
 8 17 10 5
 6 8 5 5
 43 30 42 75
 0 0 12 0
 50 0 0 0
 829 813 795 856
 60 59 57 63
Shooter Flyer Caster Unlimited Retaliation
Elemental Elemental Elemental Elemental
Immunity to Fire Immunity to Air Immunity to Water Immunity to Earth
Fire Shield No Enemy Retaliation Magic-Proof 50%
IMO at the current state it is not so good spell in comapre to its lvl. Why:
1. This spell is designed to support army of the player. Ok when the support is needed, hmm in the early game but because this spell is lvl 4 (so only Elemental Waistband)and costs 17 Mana is very expensive and the number of summoned RANDOM isn't so great either there are much better cheaper spells. In middle game your army is big enough and your hero at better lvl so they can handle themsleves pretty well and will relay on other spells. The Late game or final battle, if you want support you uselly cast Conjure Phoenix, a bunch of again Random Tier 4, Elementals wouldn't help you much in situation when you need more troops on the battlefield to make the enemy busy with them for some while. Even when you would have Fire Warriors skill their 8 Init won't help against Fast And Furious Enemies. By the way the human player will focus on destroing main army rather on summoned ones, because without it you lose.
So supprotive spell I think not
2. Elementals are Tier 4, Neutrals Phoenixes are Tier 7 and the Summoned one is Tier 8(or higher, you can't cast Phantom Forces on them )The Power and Strenght of Conjured Phoenix is many times greater then any number of Summoned Elementals, there is only few situations when Conjure Phoenix is a bad idea, when enemy Hero has these skills: Cold Death, Elemental Balance, Harm Touch. IMO The Summoned Elementals are too weak as for lvl 4 spell. This spell seems like last chance cast and save yourself.
So i think this spell should be changed somehow, and i see ideas for solutions:
(1) Make it 2nd lvl spell(5-8 mana), Arcane Crystal will be 3rd lvl and Blade Barrier will be 4th lvl. This change will make the spell more useful in early and maybe in mid game for some factions.
(2) Improve all elementals to Tier 5-6, all of them could be spell casters. Of course the number of them summoned must be halfed or reduce by some degree.
(3) Increase the numbers of Summoned Elementals by 50% - 150%. as an recompense for no stacking when the spell is cast one after another.
Thats mine point of view i would be glad to read yours.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 26, 2008 01:42 AM |
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Yeah, Summon Elemental's is a weak spell for Summoning Magic. It's something you cast in the final fight whenever you've already cast all the other spells you want and you need to use up a turn. If you wanted to buff it some way I think it would behoove the magic balance to buff Chain Lightning as well so Summoning Magic doesn't become too strong.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted October 26, 2008 02:34 AM |
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I would consider giving the Summon Elementals spell just more powerful elementals. Nerf the Water Elementals spellpower though, they're strong enough as it is.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted October 26, 2008 02:31 AM |
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I agree with the analysis. Summoning Elementals just got more and more useless with every patch. It really requires some changes to make it even usable.
Quote:
(1) Make it 2nd lvl spell(5-8 mana), Arcane Crystal will be 3rd lvl and Blade Barrier will be 4th lvl. This change will make the spell more useful in early and maybe in mid game for some factions.
Even arcane crystal and blade barrier are not often cast because they are more of tactical placement spells (just like fire trap) rather than summoning spells.
I would say swap summon elementals and blade barrier. Summon Elementals would be a level 3 spell (mid-level) for summoning mid-tier (mid-tier) creatures for 9 or 10 mana. Sounds more reasonable?
Then blade barrier needs to be improved slightly or it would be a useless lvl 4 spell.
Quote:
(2) Improve all elementals to Tier 5-6, all of them could be spell casters. Of course the number of them summoned must be halfed or reduce by some degree.
All can still be at tier 4 (their weekly growth is poor enough)
I suggest the following changes:-
Air elemental - Partial Incorporeality
Unit receives 25% less damage from all physical attacks (melee or ranged)
Earth elemental - Localised Tremors
Unit gains ability to cause a localised earthquake on a 3x3 area once per battle, dong some physical damage and also stunning all units there, friend or foe (ATB goes back by 0.15)
Its initiative can also take a slight boost to 6.
Fire elemental - generally its ok, though I feel it should have some chance (not too big a chance or it becomes too powerful)to "mark of the fire" upon affected unit
Water elemental - ranged attack in the form of a water jet, however should not have too many shots, maybe 3, and should have range penalty like that of assassins and cyclops. Also it can have 18 mana instead of 12.
Quote:
(3) Increase the numbers of Summoned Elementals by 50% - 150%. as an recompense for no stacking when the spell is cast one after another.
If the elementals are buffed enough, this would not be necessary. If not, then maybe master of conjuration or warlock luck can help to increase the numbers summoned, but not 50%, it's too much for high spellpower heroes.
Feel free to comment on these suggestions.
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted October 26, 2008 04:26 AM |
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I'm not sure incorporeal can be changed in value. And what sort of water jet did you have in mind? I guess the Wizard shot would work fine...
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted October 26, 2008 08:16 AM |
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Necro with expert summoning and fire warriors rlz!
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted October 26, 2008 08:26 AM |
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Agreed, but my hands are still somehow on Dungeon.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted October 26, 2008 09:53 AM |
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Edited by Lesij at 09:54, 26 Oct 2008.
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Summon elems and Light magic for high spell pow factions (Dungeon, Necro) can be just awsome...
But u need luck in both cases to get right skills.
Anyway, about the necro:
- if u get windys- just boost them with ur light spells and phanotm. U get two attacks at once and with their stunning init and no retal they are great backup- especially for engaging shooters (cuz of no retal phantom can stay longer)
- if u get waters or earths... Eh... They are quite sucky  but u can just us them to attack, and if u play caspar- earths, woth a bit of luck, can enter the fortifications quite fast- don't be afraid of moat- they are summons tough...
And waters- they are crappy after the patch ;P
- if u get fires- just shoot to kill. Boosted with light magic they are marvellous
To sum up- if you know how to boost ur elems, they can be quite handy in the battle- especially during the siege...
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 26, 2008 10:03 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 10:04, 26 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
I would consider giving the Summon Elementals spell just more powerful elementals. Nerf the Water Elementals spellpower though, they're strong enough as it is.
It has been nerfed in 3.1 patch
It's in "GameMechanics\RPGStats\DefaultStats.xdb" file.
<SpellDamageMultiplier>0.3</SpellDamageMultiplier>
Quote:
Necro with expert summoning and fire warriors rlz!
Aren't Conjured Phoenix better
Quote:
Agreed, but my hands are still somehow on Dungeon.
Dungeon using summon elementals
Quote:
I would say swap summon elementals and blade barrier. Summon Elementals would be a level 3 spell (mid-level) for summoning mid-tier (mid-tier) creatures for 9 or 10 mana. Sounds more reasonable?
Then blade barrier needs to be improved slightly or it would be a useless lvl 4 spell.
Thats my dilema too if it would be lvl 2 spell anyone could cast it in early game, lvl 3 spell only with school mastery or magic insight(maybe it is good idea to improve usefulness of it).
And yes i also think that Blade Barrier and Arcane Crytsal needs more HP(power)
Making the Elementals stronger also feels very temptating. So what we could give to the elementals:
Air Elemental - Partial Incorporeality if that could be possible that would be nice idea.
My list of ability propostions: (we can pick one or two and mix it with stats)
- Caster 14 Mana: Lighting Bolt on A.M., Teleport on E.M.
- Full Incorporeal sounds very inbalancing but with changes in other stats in could be more fair
- The damage reduction like Blade Barrier has
- Whirlwind Pattern Attack
Earth elemental - Localised Tremors nice
My list of ability propostions:
- Caster 10 Mana: Stone Spikes on E.M, Earhquake with Stunning Effect on E.M.
- Bash with those two clubs they have
- Armoured, Hold Ground and Defensive Stance
Fire Elementals - Yes Mark of Fire why not.
- Caster 20 Mana: Fireball A.M., Fire Wall A.M.
- Magic Shoot when i first saw the shoot effect ever i thought that it work like the Mages Magical Shoot
Water Elementals - i was thinking the same that give it an Shooter ability but similiar to the H3, fire with forozen ice shard
- Caster 18 Mana
- Spray Pattern Attack
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted October 26, 2008 10:24 AM |
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In my opinion the non-casters should stay non-casters...
But abilities like incorpo and Whirlwind are very good for Windy.
Maybe he could also have sucking attack- each attack sucks at least one creature withn the embodiment of elemental. If the elemental stack is killed all the creatures sucked are back to the fight...
About the Earth elemental- I would like him to have shield allies and, for example endurance aura (his appearing in fight would casue slight defence bonus for all allied creatures)- his init is defensive unit one...
Water- ofc caster, but maybe more "watery" less icy spells- making him support caster not damaging one. For example could he have sink- attacked creature is sucked by the mud which is made with water and soil. It can't move, but it can attack.
Another spell- Tidial wave- elemental can change himself in the great wave of water to harm the defensives of the foe- gives siege attack, if any unit is on the way of the wave- it is harmed slightly, moved a bit acording to the way tide moved, and stunned.
Fire- Mark of fire will do the job. He's quite respective for me as he is...
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 26, 2008 01:41 PM |
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My opinion is that it should summon slightly more elementals and the mana should be reduced by a little.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 26, 2008 01:48 PM |
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I'd rather it was removed altogether and become an ability like fire warriors Best I could hope for is picking which elemental you wish and the space in which it appears. Getting the wrong element usually means a wasted turn.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 26, 2008 01:58 PM |
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You're right, that's why I never summon elementals without Fire Warriors - at least with that perk you're guaranteed to get the best elemental (in 3.1 Water Elemental got nerfed)
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted October 26, 2008 02:00 PM |
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Edited by Lesij at 14:02, 26 Oct 2008.
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But then again u get three autonomic spells (and Nival made every school to have the same amount of them )...
Futhermore- that's obvious simply everybody would choose fires...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 26, 2008 02:04 PM |
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Wrong, every elemental is good as long as it's used in the right situation. I've been saved by air as I have been saved by earth elementals. Also from water in the past but I don't see that ever happening again.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ArchWarl0ck
Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
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posted October 26, 2008 02:48 PM |
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I think this spell should be improved in two ways:
1) Increase the number of elementals summoned (slightly)
2) Make the spell work like in Heroes 2-3, I mean when the spell is used next time it would summon more elementals to a new stack. Or maybe to add them to the current stack of elementals. It was this way in the original game and was removed in patch 1.3 if I'm not mistaken. That was a too huge and IMO senseless nerf.
The only thing I would like to change in elementals stats is earth one's initiative - 5 is really pathetic, 7 will be fine.
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I have a knack for perceiving things - I can see how it sounds, I can feel how it sings
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2008 02:55 PM |
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Moving the spell to level 3 would be ok, but level 2 would probably be a bit over the top.
I don't think the number needs to be increased. As others have been point out, Summon Elementals + Fire Warriors is pretty powerful as it is. Problem is that all the other elementals (including Water Elementals post 3.1) suck.
Water Elementals > The 70 % decrease of Spell damage is perhaps a bit drastic. How about making that a 50 % decrease for starts?
Air Elementals > Not too bad. I would give the Incorporeal ability, with this, they could actually be pretty annoying. Decrease their Hit Points a bit if you want to balance it.
Earth Elementals > You can pile as many defensive abilities on these guys as you want, and it will not change the fact that they still suck unless perhaps you play Warlock or other destructive mage and needs to buy time for your spells. Giving the spells will not really help them, and will also make it a bit trivial as that will mean that 3 of the elementals now have spells or ranged attacks. Perhaps give them a Dash ability, and they could actually become a thread if ignored?
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 26, 2008 06:36 PM |
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Dash yes it should do.
I think i will do two versions of this spell:
a) 2 lvl spell with reduced mana cost and number of elementals per SP
b) slightly better Tier 5 elementals increse the cost of the spell ant light reducment of number per spellpower
And see which one is better.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted October 26, 2008 09:32 PM |
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Edited by Lesij at 22:01, 26 Oct 2008.
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I can help u in testing if u want:
I can make three heroes (duel ones) and check the spell out in the game playing necro or/and aca...
EDIT: I decided to install some Mods cuz I'm quite low on time recently and net play is not for me then
Have to wait till I'll be ill for some days or till the holliday
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 26, 2008 11:49 PM |
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Thanks a lot for you propostion Lesij
The active testing and feedback by others then the creator is very very helpful and very needed.
Watch the Spell Enchantments Thread in Modders Workshop because there i will upload the mod(probably also send you message on HCM).
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