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| Thread: Logistics Makeover | |
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 06, 2008 04:25 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 12 Nov 2008. |
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Logistics Makeover
In my opinion, and many will agree with me, logistics is an annoying skill because it is the only skill that is for the most part noncombat oriented. However it is a necessary evil that you usually have to take. Logistics is a top priority no matter what faction you are, and this makes it very stale and uninteresting. So in order to make logistics more dynamic and interesting, I have given logistics an overhaul.
New Battle Grid Feature: Hindered Terrain
Hindered terrain is a new type of terrain that appears on the battle grid. Hindered terrain represents things such as ice, mud, slush, small rocks, brush, etc. In order to move through a square that is hindered, it takes 2 movement points instead of 1.
Logistics
Logistics comes in three tiers: Basic Logistics, Advanced Logistics, and Expert Logistics.
Basic Logistics:
Tier 1-3 creatures receive a +2 bonus to speed.
Advanced Logistics:
Tier 1-5 creatures receive a +2 bonus to speed.
Expert Logistics:
All creatures receive a +2 bonus to speed.
Additional Logistics Skills
Pathfinding:
Units can move through hindered terrain at normal speed.
Scouting:
During tactical combat, the opponents positions are revealed before you set up for tactical combat. If both players have scouting, tactical combat is done simultaneously as usual.
Offensive Assembly:
You receive an additional front row of squares to set up in for tactical combat .
Defensive Assembly:
You receive an additional back row of squares to set up in for tactical combat.
Engineering: The hero receives 7 “Engineer Points” during tactical combat, which can be used to place hindered terrain or obstacles on the battle grid. Placing a hindered square takes 2 Engineer Points. Placing an obstacle takes 3 Engineer Points. The hero may only set up hindered terrain and obstacles on their half of the battle grid.
Aerial Maneuvering: If a flying unit moves no more than 75% of it’s total movement, it receives a +5% bonus to it’s initiative for the next turn. If it moves no more than 50% of it’s total movement, it receives a +10% bonus to it’s initiative for the next turn. If it moves no more than 25% of it’ total movement, it receives a +15% bonus to it’s initiative for the next turn. If it doesn’t move at all, it receives a +20% bonus to it’s initiative for the next turn.
Aerial Diving: Flying units receive +2 movement speed.
Paratroopers: Special ability: Large Flyers may lose 10% of their initiative for their next turn in order to take a small sized friendly unit that is adjacent to them with them during their movement. The carried unit will be dropped off at the closest open square to where the large flyer lands. The flyer may attack as normal. Units that are dropped off lose 0.1 ATB.
Tumbling: Small units may move through (but not end on) friendly and enemy units.
Flexibility: Large units may move through (but not end on) areas with only one open square even though they take up a 2x2 area.
Endurance Running: Non-flyer units that move without attacking receive a +25% initiative bonus for their next turn.
WAIT A MINUTE!!!
So what about movement on the adventure map? Is it always the same?
Movement can be enhanced on the adventure map as well, but it is now something that is done through your economy rather than through your hero skills.
New Building: Teamster's
The Teamster's is a new building that can be built by all factions. With the Teamster's, you can purchase transports and scouting parties that enhance a hero’s performance on the adventure map. Transports and scouting parties are kept in a separate slot area on the hero (like with War Machines) and do not appear in combat. In addition to purchasing transports at the Teamster's, it is possible to find transports as special items on the adventure map.
Basic Transports: Basic Transports increase your hero’s movement speed on the adventure map by +10%.
Requires: Blacksmith, Fort
Cost: 2,500 gold
Improved Transports: Improved Transports increase your hero’s movement speed on the adventure map by +20%.
Requires: Citadel
Cost: 5,000 gold.
Premium Transports: Premium Transports increase your hero’s movement speed on the adventure map by +30%.
Requires: Castle
Cost: 10,000 gold.
Special Transports
The hero may purchase special transports that increases their movement on certain terrains. A hero may only have two different types of special transports at any given time. The cost of special transports respective to the type of terrain the town is located in is cut in half. The cost of all other types of special transports in that town costs an additional 1,500 gold.
Requires: Citadel.
Lava Beasts: Lava Beasts negate the movement penalty for moving on lava terrain.
Cost: 4,500 gold.
Taiga Oxen: Taiga Oxen negate the movement penalty for moving on taiga terrain.
Cost: 4,500 gold.
Snow Yaks: Snow Yaks negate the movement penalty for moving over snow terrain.
Cost: 6,000 gold.
Desert Camels: Desert Camels negate the movement penalty for moving over sand terrain.
Cost: 6,000 gold.
Wild Stallions: Wild Stallions negate the movement penalty for moving over dirt terrain.
Cost: 4,500 gold.
Plains Mustangs: Plains Mustangs increase the hero’s movement over grass terrain by +20%.
Cost: 5,000 gold.
Cave Lizards: Cave Lizards negate the movement penalty for moving over subterranean terrain and increases the hero's movement over dwarven subterranean terrain by +10%.
Cost: 6,500 gold.
Scouting Parties
Scouting Parties can be purchased from the Teamster's as well.
Basic Scouting Party: The hero’s scouting radius is increased by +1.
Cost: 1,000 gold.
Advanced Scouting Party: The hero’s scouting radius is increased by +2.
Requires: Town Hall
Cost: 2,500 gold.
Expert Scouting Party: The hoer's scouting radius is increased by +2, and the hero may see the exact number of creatures in an army on the adventure map.
Requires: City Hall
Cost: 5,000 gold.
Extra
Seamanship Training: The hero may take a course in seamanship to permanently receive a +30% movement bonus while at sea. This bonus is increased to +50% if the town has a Shipyard.
Requires: City Hall.
Cost: 6,000 gold.
Upgraded Caravans: All caravans going to or from this town receive a +30% movement speed.
Requires: City Hall.
Cost: 4,000 gold.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 06, 2008 08:01 AM |
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When I first read your introduction about how you didn't like that Logistics was an adventure-only oriented skill, my reaction was to disagree, and that it was not really an issue. However, as I read through the thread, you really got me onto this idea, not so much because I think the old Logistics skill is bad, because I don't think it is - in fact, it may well be too good - but in terms of in-game concepts, I think this idea is even better - or can become with a bit of modification. 
My first gripe is with the Logistics bonuses you propose. First off, I think it's too cumbersome having to choose which units to have the bonus in beginning of each combat - although if game remembers it from rach combat, I guess that helps, because you would probably end up choosing the same 3 units pretty much every time. In addition to that, I'm thinking, why only ground units? I understand your reasoning for this, but I think it will limit the usefulness of this skill for a lot of factions very much. Certainly, every faction has a powerful ground unit they would like to boost (Paladins, Unicorns, Wraiths, Rakshasa, etc.), but also every faction has a flying unit they would like to do the same for.
My suggestion would be a bit more radical: Simply increase movement - by 2 points? - for all units (when you have the skill on expert level). This could work like this:
Basic Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-3 units by 2 points.
Advanced Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-5 units by 2 points.
Expert Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-7 units by 2 points.
Alternatively, one could make a more skewed system (basic adds +1 for level 1-3; advanced adds +2 for 1-3 and +1 for 4-5; expert adds +3 for 1-3, +2 for 4-5 and +1 for 6-7). The advantage of this is that the very powerful level 6-7 units gain the smaller boost. One could also say that ground units get +2 and air units +1 and stick to the first system ... variations abound! I should say in this context, that in my personal vision, overall movement of units are generally decreased slightly in H6, to accomodate for some skills to increase movement (like this) and spells to do the same (old fashioned Haste).
Other comments:
Perks: Offensive and Deffensive Assembly: Brilliant! A defensive Tactics = genious. Something the game really needs. As for placing obstacles ... not too sure about that one. Some interesting ideas around, though, may return to that later.
Other mounts: Rather than giving a pretty strong +30 % movement on that terrain (that's +60 % total  ) I'd say, let them negate movement penalty on that terrain. For instance, if you play Knight, you default mount will be a Horse. However, if you pruchase an Elephant, you will have no movement penalty in the Desert, just like the Wizard (who's default mount is an Elephant). You could still do something to "learn" Pathfinding (as a skill, or something else) to completely negate terrain penalties.
EDIT > One further thought: I think the whole movement enhancement thing could be really nicely tied up with the idea of special mounts which was brought up here some time ago. Here's what I have in mind: All towns get a "Stables" building, something akin to the one in Haven, but like the Mage Guild, it's something that can be upgraded. When you purchase your Hero from the Tavern, he comes with a regular mount, but when you build the Stables, you can upgrade the mount to gain a movement bonus (10 % / 20 % / 30 %). Depending on how much one wants to expand this idea, there might even be options to gain advanced features that could take effect on adventure map and in combat and might be individual for each faction.
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What will happen now?
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 06, 2008 08:13 AM |
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I like most of what you say but if I had to make a change it would be here: Quote:
Logistics
Logistics comes in three tiers: Basic Logistics, Advanced Logistics, and Expert Logistics.
Basic Logistics:
During tactical combat, you may select one non-flyer unit to receive +2 speed for the entire combat.
Advanced Logistics:
During tactical combat, you may select two non-flyer units to receive +2 speed for the entire combat.
Expert Logistics:
During tactical combat, you may select three non-flyer units to receive +2 speed for the entire combat
It would be blaaaa to have to choose everytime
I would have to make a change to this but to what I'm not sure.
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What are you up to
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 06, 2008 06:10 PM |
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Quote:
My first gripe is with the Logistics bonuses you propose. First off, I think it's too cumbersome having to choose which units to have the bonus in beginning of each combat - although if game remembers it from rach combat, I guess that helps, because you would probably end up choosing the same 3 units pretty much every time. In addition to that, I'm thinking, why only ground units? I understand your reasoning for this, but I think it will limit the usefulness of this skill for a lot of factions very much. Certainly, every faction has a powerful ground unit they would like to boost (Paladins, Unicorns, Wraiths, Rakshasa, etc.), but also every faction has a flying unit they would like to do the same for.
My suggestion would be a bit more radical: Simply increase movement - by 2 points? - for all units (when you have the skill on expert level). This could work like this:
Basic Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-3 units by 2 points.
Advanced Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-5 units by 2 points.
Expert Logistics: Increases movement of level 1-7 units by 2 points.
Alternatively, one could make a more skewed system (basic adds +1 for level 1-3; advanced adds +2 for 1-3 and +1 for 4-5; expert adds +3 for 1-3, +2 for 4-5 and +1 for 6-7). The advantage of this is that the very powerful level 6-7 units gain the smaller boost. One could also say that ground units get +2 and air units +1 and stick to the first system ... variations abound! I should say in this context, that in my personal vision, overall movement of units are generally decreased slightly in H6, to accomodate for some skills to increase movement (like this) and spells to do the same (old fashioned Haste).
This is exactly what I needed. I didn't want it to be +1/+2/+3 speed since +3 speed for all units with expert logistics felt too powerful. But having it reach +2 with your system would work.
Quote:
Other comments:
Other mounts: Rather than giving a pretty strong +30 % movement on that terrain (that's +60 % total ) I'd say, let them negate movement penalty on that terrain.
Good point. I didn't want to mess with it too much since different terrains have different penalties, but I can adjust the price accordingly.
Quote:
For instance, if you play Knight, you default mount will be a Horse. However, if you pruchase an Elephant, you will have no movement penalty in the Desert, just like the Wizard (who's default mount is an Elephant). You could still do something to "learn" Pathfinding (as a skill, or something else) to completely negate terrain penalties.
I'd rather not give each faction a special mount to start with. Having all knights start with a horse for extra grass movement and having all wizards start with an elephant for to negate desert penalties, etc., would create a bias with which terrain each town should be in, and I feel that's too restricting for maps.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 06, 2008 06:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
For instance, if you play Knight, you default mount will be a Horse. However, if you pruchase an Elephant, you will have no movement penalty in the Desert, just like the Wizard (who's default mount is an Elephant). You could still do something to "learn" Pathfinding (as a skill, or something else) to completely negate terrain penalties.
I'd rather not give each faction a special mount to start with. Having all knights start with a horse for extra grass movement and having all wizards start with an elephant for to negate desert penalties, etc., would create a bias with which terrain each town should be in, and I feel that's too restricting for maps.
Yes, that's true, but on the other hand, this bias is there already, in that in the current game, if you play Wizard, you suffer no movement penalty in Desert, while if you play Knight, you will suffer this penalty. In that regard, letting the Knight upgrade his mount will offer him better options than he has now.
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What will happen now?
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted November 06, 2008 06:49 PM |
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Quote:
if you play Wizard, you suffer no movement penalty in Desert, while if you play Knight, you will suffer this penalty.
Yes, but That's compansated by the extremely log chances to get Logistics.
Grass, Taiga, Underground and Dirt's penalties aren't that big, and the Factions that live on those terrains have high chances for Logistics (Ranger, Barb, Warlock and Knight), whereas Runemagi and Wizards have to do with only 2% chance... but with not Penalty from Harsh terrain.
It's balanced as it is, with the mild Exception of Stronghold, which is a blazing beast on the Adventure map (even more than the Ranger)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 06, 2008 07:03 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
if you play Wizard, you suffer no movement penalty in Desert, while if you play Knight, you will suffer this penalty.
Yes, but That's compansated by the extremely log chances to get Logistics.
Grass, Taiga, Underground and Dirt's penalties aren't that big, and the Factions that live on those terrains have high chances for Logistics (Ranger, Barb, Warlock and Knight), whereas Runemagi and Wizards have to do with only 2% chance... but with not Penalty from Harsh terrain.
It's balanced as it is, with the mild Exception of Stronghold, which is a blazing beast on the Adventure map (even more than the Ranger)
Well, I don't think that's why Wizard and Runemage have low chances for Logistics, I think that's because they are considered mostly Magic classes, and Logistics is a (mostly) Might skill. If we were to introduce dual classes, that would fall apart, and even if it IS one of the reasons they have low chances now, I'd say it's a lousy way of making balance, because it cuts away not only the Wizard's chance for getting Pathfinding, but also his chance for getting crucial abilities like Teleport Assault and Swift Mind.
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What will happen now?
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 06, 2008 07:33 PM |
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Well my solution in this logistics overhaul is for wizard and runemage's to suffer penalties in desert and snow terrain just like everybody else  That's a dumb rule anyway that I forgot about until it was brought up here.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 07, 2008 07:55 PM |
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Of course Logistics is non combat oriented, that's the whole point. I like the idea about hindered terrain though, but you ought to rename the skill Tactics, and most of the perks seem weird.
The terrain dependent mounts are a good idea, but you should only be able to have 1 at a time, and pay 250 a day in advance.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted November 17, 2008 02:57 PM |
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@blizzardboy,
Your suggestions are generally good and refreshing in bringing about new changes for the age-old skill of logistics, just some queries to ask and specific comments to make:-
Logistics
+2 speed is a tide-turner...that is making logistics a "must-choose" ability...Heroes 3 already have "must-choose" abilities, which heroes 5 corrected it by allowing flexibility in skills selection...
Perhaps Alc's skewed system would be more balanced.
Additional Logistics Skills
I hope offensive assembly and defensive assembly are mutually exclusive.
A hero with both perks can potentially field 7 large creatures (typically the tier 5 to 7 units) on the tactics screen, there is NO contest after that...
In H5, I believe most of the tier 5 to tier 7 units are made "large creature" for a reason, to prevent heroes from overrunning the battlefield with an army of ONLY high-tiered units. The high-tiered small creatures (priest, rune priest, shadow matriarch, slayer and their upgrades are either fragile or merely ranged/casting troops and so not too unbalancing)
Aerial maneuvering is good, but it smells of archangel/seraph abuse...one waits to cast heavy damage, imba DV, the other subsequently resurrects own troops.
Aerial diving and flexibility: does flying units need more perks? Then who would even take walkers to battle?
Teamsters and scouting parties, plus the chance of EXTRA caravan movement sounds nice...
For the special transports, seeing their potential value I would even make the non-terrain related 2nd transport more expensive by 2000 or 2500 gold, and the effects are even reduced:-
Grass --- only 10% movement increase
Dwarven sub --- only 5% movement increase
lava, taiga, dirt, subterranean --- 10% pathfinding penalty
snow and desert --- 20% pathfinding penalty
I have some of my own ideas for logistics skill as well, but I am still tidying up these ideas in my mind (and I may not even be free to visit HC this weekend), so any ideas you can add on, just add on.
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 25, 2008 01:52 AM |
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Quote:
@blizzardboy,
Your suggestions are generally good and refreshing in bringing about new changes for the age-old skill of logistics, just some queries to ask and specific comments to make:-
Logistics
+2 speed is a tide-turner...that is making logistics a "must-choose" ability...Heroes 3 already have "must-choose" abilities, which heroes 5 corrected it by allowing flexibility in skills selection...
Perhaps Alc's skewed system would be more balanced.
I don't know. I'm comparing it to Expert Enlightenment, which gives +1 stat per 2 levels and +15% exp gain, and that's pretty powerful too. +2 speed would allow the fast movers that can almost reach the other end of the board to charge in one turn, but it still wouldn't be enough to let the slow movers get across.
Quote:
I hope offensive assembly and defensive assembly are mutually exclusive.
A hero with both perks can potentially field 7 large creatures (typically the tier 5 to 7 units) on the tactics screen, there is NO contest after that...
In H5, I believe most of the tier 5 to tier 7 units are made "large creature" for a reason, to prevent heroes from overrunning the battlefield with an army of ONLY high-tiered units. The high-tiered small creatures (priest, rune priest, shadow matriarch, slayer and their upgrades are either fragile or merely ranged/casting troops and so not too unbalancing)
It could easily enough be set up with the perks that you can't get both of them, but I don't see the big deal. What kind of games do you play where you can have large groups of seven different tier 7's? And even if you did somehow manage that, you'd be taking bad morale penalties.
Quote:
Aerial maneuvering is good, but it smells of archangel/seraph abuse...one waits to cast heavy damage, imba DV, the other subsequently resurrects own troops.
Both are only one time abilities. +20% initiative, which is the optimal use you can get out of this perk, isn't any better than haste.
Quote:
Aerial diving and flexibility: does flying units need more perks? Then who would even take walkers to battle?
Flexibility is for large ground units.
Quote:
Teamsters and scouting parties, plus the chance of EXTRA caravan movement sounds nice...
For the special transports, seeing their potential value I would even make the non-terrain related 2nd transport more expensive by 2000 or 2500 gold, and the effects are even reduced:-
Grass --- only 10% movement increase
Dwarven sub --- only 5% movement increase
lava, taiga, dirt, subterranean --- 10% pathfinding penalty
snow and desert --- 20% pathfinding penalty
But then you could just use secondary heroes to purchase transports for your main hero, and this could be easily looped. And which one would be the heroes secondary transports, and which one would be his primary transport? Would you not be able to switch them around after a certain point?
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted November 25, 2008 06:43 PM |
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At last!
A real proposition that makes absolute sense!
@Blizzardboy: Never mind the battlefield, it is already clogged with plenty of obstacles already. You should concentrate on different sizes of ships for the shipyard and, to reinsert the water/lava moat for castle sieges. And, introduce, Archipalego islands when creating an RMG map(more sea and sea battles with the newest warships). Less land to reach the mines and all else would be awesome(Heroes 3 style).
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LordSM
Adventuring Hero
and Chess Maniac:P
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posted November 25, 2008 09:23 PM |
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That's the first post of "The Word of a Newbie" series
At first, that new Logistics seems to be incredibly powerful, even more than Enlightment. With it and some other skills the hero would rule.
I like Alc's idea, making the ability more reasonable.
Also, these all "teamster's", "engineering" and new mounts would complicate the game too much for my taste. Heroes were always meant to be quite a simple game-even the new skill system in HoMM 5 would be too hard for me without SkillWheel.
Logistics are just an adventure skill, but influencing the fight-with more move points you may do more things at turn and therefore have a bigger army. Here i have to ask about def. assembly-will it make the battlfield bigger or use an idle line?
Finally, that was a piece of good(even though I do't like this)work, and I hope that you'll keep this up
Of course I may not be right-as said, I'm a newb.
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rmcmurtry
Hired Hero
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posted December 30, 2008 04:17 AM |
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I like your scouting ability for sure because I usually find scouting useless and this ability helps a ton
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