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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 02, 2009 12:49 PM |
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I actually agree with you on my perk Jolly, but to be honest not much else makes sense for it. Mark of the Necro? Why? Maybe Eternal Servitude. Although unlike when they raise their own creatures they do not stay after fights. Banshee Howl? Why? Doesn't fit. Since it is a Summoning Skill, most other skills don't really fit either. Hmm, I will give it some thought.
Leadership - Sort of makes them being undead once raised kinda ... huh? Herald of Death might fit..but might make it kinda a never used perk also.
Logistics - Doesn't make sense..to me...
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2009 01:06 PM |
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Adrius, I mean the battlefield of course.
Mytical, a question: Would that work with the Raise Dead spell? I mean, would that give - like with Dungeon - Empowered Raise Dead, for double the cost and with the same raising mechanics (so many HPs raised?). Could you raise from a partly killed stack (and wouldn't that be easier)?
How about having Haunted Mines as a prerequisite and Raise Ghosts from the opposition?
Hmmm, or how about allowing to raise what you could raise AFTER battle IN battle already. Something like Immediate Necromancy? In this case the perk would depend on your availability of Dark Energy.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 02, 2009 01:18 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:24, 02 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
Mytical, a question: Would that work with the Raise Dead spell? I mean, would that give - like with Dungeon - Empowered Raise Dead, for double the cost and with the same raising mechanics (so many HPs raised?). Could you raise from a partly killed stack (and wouldn't that be easier)?
How about having Haunted Mines as a prerequisite and Raise Ghosts from the opposition?
Hmmm, or how about allowing to raise what you could raise AFTER battle IN battle already. Something like Immediate Necromancy? In this case the perk would depend on your availability of Dark Energy.
(Hate quotes but only way I could answer this)
No, it only raises exactly as much as the Raise Dead Spell. So it is more efficient to raise your own troops. It can only target 'bodies' first, but then you can cast it on that stack after to continue to raise more. You can not target a 'active' stack that the hero controls. I like the Haunted Mines idea, but not particularly the ghost part. The immediate necromancy idea is nice, but might require a lot more coding and math.
The Power of this perk is that you can have more then 7 units on the field, and you can use units that you normally would not be able to. Imagine a Necromancer with a stack of freshly raised undead Paladins (unaffected by negative morale since they are undead) that is immune to confusion, decay, etc. If two necromancers meet, it is whoever can 'zap' the corpse first  . Note: That if the stack 'dies' again, it reverts to its original owner and can be raised, ressurected, etc.
Edit : Oh and it prevents that power stack (temporarily) from being raised, ressurected, etc..also.
Yes, I know level 5 is the max, that was just an example.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2009 01:40 PM |
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What I don't like with this perk is that it would be complicated to implement. Undead Paladins should look different from regular ones, for example.
I would expect a lot of bugs in connection with such a perk.
For example, let's say you manage to kill a stack of... umm, Hydras, let's say 10. You raise part of them as undead Hydras, say 5.
a) What about regeneration?
b) what about the other 5 and still dead Hydras
c) If those undead Hydras are killed at a different place than risen from, do you suddenly have two stacks of 5 dead Hydras each?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2009 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
Fauch's perk is cool as well, I think, except that I don't see why this should be an Academy perk only?
Fauch?
because they are awesome at magic. and also because their creatures have a nice set of spells and activated abilities.
might also have been inspired by the fact that illusion was an order spell in H4
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2009 08:00 PM |
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Hmm. I'm not convinced, Fauch, but ok.
continung...
Ok, Mamgaeater effectively killed Inferno for this round with a perk that - for me - seems what I would call natural. Which means, a perk for Inferno is out; well, not really out, but for me has set quite a high standard.
Stronghold is appalling as well - of course you CAN design perks that don't need a spell, but then you have to find a good reason why they are special.
What about Haven, Sylvans and Dwarves, the non-natural Summoning factions? For Dwarves there already is a nice special perk, Runic Armor, Haven doesn't strike a chord either, but Sylvans with their nature sensitivity...
There might be a perk in those Summoning spells after all for Sylvans...
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COMPETITION ENTRY:
Perk for Sylvans
Hive Kinship
Prerequisites:
Basic Summoning, Advanced Attack, Nature's Wrath
Effect:
The Ranger gets the spell Summon Hive. Due to the Ramger's kinship with nature, after the initial casting of the spell, the Hive casts the Wasp Swarm spell without mana cost! Additionally, if a potential target is on the Favorite Enemy list of the Ranger, the Ranger can guide the attack from the nearest target (regular spell target) to the Favorite Enemy target.
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I think, I like that perk. It somehow "fits", and I like the fact that you need an Attack prerequisite. Nature's Wrath is fitting for a maddened Wasp Swarm, attacking without needing further mana incentive - the Hive is, after all, THERE.
To be continued...
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted December 03, 2009 04:17 AM |
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Thats cool.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 09:31 AM |
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Thanks.
continuing...
That leaves the regular Summoning factions Necro, Academy and Dungeon.
For Necro I'm sure there's a good perk in Mytical's suggestion, so I won't follow that road.
Dark Energy is a concept that was introduced rather late - after most perks were made. I think, there's nothing wrong with Necro perks that somehow will effectively add to the Dark Energy pool one way or another. I did something like that already in the Destructive department, and the general idea is pretty sound. Moreover, I like perks that make you "work" to make real use of them. Maybe...
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NOT FOR THE COMPETITION:
Perk for NECROPOLIS
Gift Of The Banshee
Prerequisites:
Advanced Summoning, Master of Life, Banshee Howl
Effect:
As long as the Banshee howls over a battlefield (i.e. Banshee Howl has been activated and is still active), there's special synergy between Summoning Magic and Dark Energy. Half of the Mana used up for Summoning Spells is added to the Dark Energy Pool (fractions kept).
If the Necromancer has a Pillar of Bones built, he may, under the Howl of the Banshee) once per battle convert Dark Eneergy points into missing Mana Points for a Raise Dead Spell, at a ratio of 2 DE points for each point of Mana.
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That's an interesting perk. I', not really sure whether it's a good perk and how powerful it is, but it certainly hands out more options in battles for Necromancers to be considered.
Starting to think about a perk for Academy, the first thing that comes to mind is - unfortunately - an idea to round up Fauch's perk: The reason for this is probably, that I agree with Fauch that the Phantoms are linked so closely with Academy since HoMM IV.
If I had to make that perk, I'd probably take Consume Artifact in and give Phantoms abilities based on whether they were equipped with a mini-artifsct or not and how many levels it had.
Of course I still don't have an Academy perk, and with a Phantom-based perk in place I doubt I'll try one.
To be continued...
P.S.: Is it ok, if I do this the way I do it now? Or is this too much of an influebcing of the competition?
EDIT: Seems, that it's not ok.
So no discussion of perks.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 03, 2009 10:51 AM |
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Since the perk is a bit odd, removing it. I agree with JJ that there is too many unanswered questions. Will post another in its place...hopefully one that I don't have to explain as much.
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Message received.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 03, 2009 04:34 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 19:09, 03 Dec 2009.
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Necropolis
When Asha Calls
Preq: Lord of the Undead, Master of Life
"The Dead know no Loyalty, they only know obedience to Asha. When Asha calls, whether you are an Champion of Elrath or a Herald of Urgash, you will answer to her. We have a purpose for you be it in life or in death." Krematul - Highpriest of Heresh
Amongst the Necromancers of Heresh there are a few that are without peer. The ones truely touched by Asha have grown past the limits of their former comrades. They can bind whatever corpse is on the battlefield to their will no matter how pious or corrupted they were before their unlife.
Basically allows the Necromancer to ressurect enemy troops from a dead stack for the duration of the Combat (so if all the original Necro troops are dead the Necromancer loses unless he defeats the Enemy with his own troops then it'll be a tie). Once ressurected they'll be undead creatures aswell and under the controle of the Necromancer (so they get the stat additions and perk benefits the rest of the Necro army has). When the ressurected stack dies the enemy hero will not be able to ressurect them himself.
The tier they're able raise depends on their Mastery of Necromancy, Basic: Tiers 1,2 and 3 Advanced: Tiers 4 and 5 Expert Tiers 6 and 7.
EDIT: I just saw (I swear) JJ and Mytical talking about a post that sounds quite similar to my idea. I've looked for it in the thread but I don't see something posted by Mytical apart from her redesign of Summon Elementals? I don't want to be called a copycat (the idea came to me in a particularly boring class on "Errors and Purpose in the German law system" I can scan the sheet with my idea sketches if you want me too lol) so could someone point me to that post?
And on a sidenote Fauch, so if you have Gobos that haven't used repair and Clone them you have a neverending source of repair for your golems?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 04:44 PM |
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"Lord of the Undead"?
Umm, that's basically the perk that Mytical deleted a couple of hours ago. I'll ask the same question: How is that perk in practise working? I mean, what has the Necro to do to animate them, can he raise them, what happens when they die again, and so on?
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 03, 2009 04:49 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 17:03, 03 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
a) What about regeneration?
b) what about the other 5 and still dead Hydras
c) If those undead Hydras are killed at a different place than risen from, do you suddenly have two stacks of 5 dead Hydras each?
a) As I said they become undead and therefore spells like regeneration and ressurection won't work on them
b)Well it works like it has allways worked in the game. If you raise the stack to 5 Hydras that will be the stack that has 5 more Hydras in it to potentialy be risen. There won't be another corpse lying arround with the other 5 Hydras, why would there it's never worked like that.
c) Again you don't have two dead stacks there only was one.
I really don't see how this perk could be so complicated. One good question this throws up though is what happens if the stack dies and whether the opposition can ressurect it...hmm.
And what has he to do to ressurect them? Well as always he needs a corpse he can click on when he picked "Raise Dead" as a spell. This really isn't half as complicated as you make it out to be.
And "Lord of the Undead" is a perk in the Enlightenment tree it comes after Arcane Exaltation. Gives you +5% Necromancy bonus and +1 Knowledge, I picked it as a prerequest since it has Eternal Servitude and fits perfectly theme wise, atleast in my opinion.
And while we're at "perfecting" (I'd prefer making suggestions) other peoples idea: Do you really think that cloneing the artefact does you much good? The stack disappears entirely if it's hit once and there's a 50% chance for that. I like Fauchs original idea a lot more, eventhough I think he could do something about that Perpetuum mobile that is the Gobo, Golem combo.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 05:01 PM |
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I don't think that works because this perk denies the opponent to use Resurrection OR Raise Dead themselves on their killed stacks, if they lose a stack completely.
Moreover the perk clashes with Guardian Angel.
However, I agree that Lord of the Undead is the perfect prerequisite for a perk like that.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 03, 2009 05:08 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 17:10, 03 Dec 2009.
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"I don't think that works because this perk denies the opponent to use Resurrection OR Raise Dead themselves on their killed stacks"
Yeah that's the whole idea behind the perk ^^. I thought Necromancers were the Kings of Summoning and the only unique perk they had sucks ass (the prerequests do, not the perk itself) so I wanted to let them have something that fits their summoning omnipotence. Then I thought "Why shouldn't really badass Necromancers only be able to ressurect their own troops?". And this was a fresh and new idea in my oppinion. Aparently not so fresh if this was already a possibility in H4 I wouldn't know I never really played it.
And I really don't think it's imbalanced after the minor tweaks I made. But that's just my opinion whether BB and Alci will like it is another thing. I like so I'm happy^^.
EDIT: Oh and why would it clash with Guardian Angel? It doesn't. The moment it's ressurected it's the Necromancers unit. So all Knight units can still be dead and from amogst those dead units the most powerful will be risen. Where's the conflict Jolly?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 05:59 PM |
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Quote:
And on a sidenote Fauch, so if you have Gobos that haven't used repair and Clone them you have a neverending source of repair for your golems?
yeah I know. could be abused in creeping, but you would eventually run out of mana (unless you use nur)
not sure how I can fix that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 06:02 PM |
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Anyway, it's fine if you like the perk. As I said to Mytical, it's the sort of perk that will create a ton of bugs. 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 06:06 PM |
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vampirism also makes units undead if I remember well (I think I already used it against a dark caster as a mean to counter mind spells)
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 03, 2009 06:29 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 18:36, 03 Dec 2009.
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No offense Jolly but I don't think you fully understand how Guardian Angel works. The description says "ressurects the most powerful group of dead creatures". If you have 100 Peasants, 100 Vindicators and 100 Paladins and they're all dead the most powerful one will get ressurected. If the Paladin stack is covered it won't be ressurected (it would following your logic), the vindicators will be ressurected instead etc. So if you use my skill that stack will simply not be ressurected since it's not a corpse, no matter whether it was the strongest or not, it will work like it always has. Therefor there will also be no reason whatsoever to make alternative "undead" units, why would there be? If you cast Vampirism they don't look different either, in my case they'll just be undead, look the same and be under control of the Necromancer. And I already specifically said that the enemy units raised will be raised as "Undead" units (that's part of the perk in case you missed it) aswell as specefying that their unlife is only for the duration of the combat. Not that I don't value your input but the things you talk about aren't a problem.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2009 06:49 PM |
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True, Fauch.
...continuing...
Anyway, I like my Sylvan perk so far, but I'm still toying with another idea. Let's see about a Dungeon Perk
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NOT FOR THE COMPETITION
Perk for Dungeon
Blade Fury
Prerequisites:
Advanced SummoningMaster of Earthblood, Basic Attack, Tactics, Empowered Spells
Effect:
The Warlock gets the spell Blade Barrier.
After the Tactics phas, before the start of a battle (so that the Warlock sees the enemy formation) the Warlock can, if he/she so desires, cast the Blade Barrier spell for DOUBLE the mana cost (but without any empowered effect). If the Warlock does cast a spell, the battle commences with a Barrier already in place.
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Another interesting perk with some potential, but it has its drawbacks as well for the Warlock low on Mana.
Arcane Crystal is a spell that qualifies as well, of course, and I mulled over an Academy perk, for example:
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NOT FOR THE COMPETITION:
Perk for Academy
Arcane Trinity
Prerequisites:
Basic Summoning, Expert EnlightenmentArcane Intuition, Arcane Exaltation, Mark of the Wizard
Effect:
The Wizard gets the spell Arcane Crystal.
After the Tactics phase, before the start of a battle (so that the Wizard sees the enemy formation) the Warlock can, if he/she so desires, cast the Arcane Crystal spell for DOUBLE the mana cost (but without any additional effect). If the Wizard does cast a spell, the battle commences with a Crystal already in place.
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However, I'm not that happy with the perk, for more than one reason, and the only thing I like is the name, because it's so silly.
Which seems to close the circle for this round for me.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 03, 2009 07:11 PM |
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a) It has to be a stack therefore the creatures have to be dead. If a creature is still alive it's not really dead yet.
b) And yes of course it applies it's normal game mechanics.
If a phantom stands on it it's the same thing stack is covered when it's covered it doesn't matter whether it's a hive, a phantom, a unit or a crystal, or summoned elementals or whatever else is possible. Simple, really.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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This thread is pages long: 
