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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Damage in homm6
Thread: Damage in homm6
diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 04, 2008 01:57 PM
Edited by diegis at 13:58, 04 Dec 2008.

Damage in homm6

I dont know if anyone said smth about this before me, and if so, pls delete this thread.

Oki, the main idea is this:

Lets suppose we have a stack A fighting another stak B.
After stack A attacked the stack B a damage will occur, but how?
Thats where I have my first idea> if the healh point of stack A is n and the health points of stack B is m, then:

all health points of stack B will be affected, decresing them with a procent that follows from dividing the whole damage points (been made by A) to the number of B creatures' stack.

So I believe, its not the same thing as it is now or was before in homm series, first because after a battle like this (supposing A won) the regeneration of the healh will take time, depending on different  morale or terrain, or smth else but relating to the realism.

Second main idea is creating bars above creature stack showing the left health and may be another bar for smth else...could be attack, or morale...whatever suits better depinds of the whole game mechanics.

What do you guyz think about this?...

thx
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted December 04, 2008 02:04 PM

I don't think I like it if I understood it correctly.

Do you mean that in a stack of say 100 Peasants with 10hp that attacked for 100 damage all 100 stay alive and they've just 9/10 hp left (every peasant of those 100).
I don't like that idea at all since you will always only be fighting with full stack force until everything dies. Seems broken. But I may have missunderstood your idea.
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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 04, 2008 02:14 PM
Edited by diegis at 14:18, 04 Dec 2008.

Quote:
I don't think I like it if I understood it correctly.

Do you mean that in a stack of say 100 Peasants with 10hp that attacked for 100 damage all 100 stay alive and they've just 9/10 hp left (every peasant of those 100).
I don't like that idea at all since you will always only be fighting with full stack force until everything dies. Seems broken. But I may have missunderstood your idea.


Yes, thats what I said, you are right!

If stack A will be blinded, then yes...1 more melee from B may be. But this way, the battle system changes and is more realistic I think.

Also, another idea is that, after some battle finish, some creatures could get more experience, and then some super creature-of same tier will arise, but with better attack and def lets say. Of course this will happening very rare, in very restricted way - like after 10 battles or number of experience points made by same stack...

EDIT: remember, that after all peasants decreased the health to 9, their damage will be decreased as well. So its a relation between healh-damage, direct proportional. Also another stats will matter, of course.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 04, 2008 02:29 PM

I don't like this idea, because with this system, either you kill the whole stack, or you kill none of it. That will always favor the stronger part, because he will be able to come out of battle lossless pretty easily, as the weeker part is unlikely to ever kill a whole stack of his.
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Isabel
Isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted December 04, 2008 02:49 PM
Edited by Isabel at 14:51, 04 Dec 2008.

Quote:
I don't like this idea, because with this system, either you kill the whole stack, or you kill none of it. That will always favor the stronger part, because he will be able to come out of battle lossless pretty easily, as the weeker part is unlikely to ever kill a whole stack of his.


That's right. It is like considering a whole stack as a single creature, and makes battles more random (with lucky strike you kill the whole stack, normal you kill none ). And under this method you may not suffer any casualties in creeping.

AE skills also become weaker - considering Meteor Shower that damage, but kill nothing in 4 stacks .

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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 04, 2008 02:54 PM
Edited by diegis at 15:00, 04 Dec 2008.

okay then, lets say further, if the damage arrives at some point, lets say a half of the total of health, then one by one creature dmg starts, like it is now.
What about others ideas?

edit: for the creeping issue, its not correct I think, as I said, need time for recover those "dmg", "healing" needs time...


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-knowledge itself is power-
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 04, 2008 09:30 PM

Definitely saying no to this one for all reasons stated above.

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted December 04, 2008 11:00 PM
Edited by Adrius at 23:00, 04 Dec 2008.

Nah... no thanks, maybe if there was a random element to it...

As in, 100 damage is randomly divided between 100 peasants (with 10 HP each)

Some die, some get damaged, some doesn't get damage at all etc etc.
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Snatch
Snatch


Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
posted December 04, 2008 11:57 PM

I had a similar idea in a German forum some months ago with randomly divided damage. Some creatures in a stack are dead, some wounded others stay unharmed. The damage of wounded creatures would be reduced in accordance to severeness of the wounds.

But in the end we came to the conclusion that there would be not much difference to the system as it is now. The only thing is that it would increase the importance and impact of healing skills, spells and abilities.

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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 05, 2008 12:35 AM
Edited by diegis at 00:37, 05 Dec 2008.

No, I got it, I think...

I'm working on a formula that will say whos gonna be dmg and in what proportion- (I'm thinking about exponential function)-, and whos dying (if any).
As soon as Ill have some time I'll do it, and thx all for reading this.

EDIT: also, leaving a battle with wounded stack, I think its good idea and new
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-knowledge itself is power-
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 05, 2008 03:37 PM

I still don't see what it adds to the game compared to the curent version - except making it more complex?
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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 06, 2008 12:17 AM

Yes, true Alcibaldes, otherwise would be the same as now...

We want different, correct?

I think I finish my calculus...but somehow it seemed very complicated or very simple, depends

The very simple way is based on a very simple idea:

every natural number (meaning the damage points of a stack) can be represented as a sum of powers of 2, or generally the sum of elements:




( r=2 )

where each term of it will be the damage  made it to creatures in the stack,starting with the first one till the total damage is reached. If the number of this damage is bigger (then the health points), then of course the stack is dead...not interesting...

we have 2 situations:
a)when the damage of creature who attack is bigger then attacked creature's health

b)damage is smaller. In this case dmg is distributed starting with the first one, who gets the bigger term, meaning the bigger dmg, and so on

this way the battle is much more close, and also init doesnt matter that much as do now.

I think is much more different from how is it now, modifying greatly the creep element, cose: now after a battle few things are different: health, morale and of course dmg...

Im sure this method can be improved in a better way, I also can add few more things depending of different situations, and making every battle more balanced (using the "a" parameter), but not any.

Was just an idea and I just hope someone who hopefully work on the new homm "child" (-more evolved-)  of the series will just notice it.

Thx for reading guyz and I hope I havent bored you too much


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-knowledge itself is power-
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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted December 06, 2008 12:33 AM

Well, he said the attacked stack also does less damage - this means there`s actually no difference in combat (for example, there`re 10 creature A in a stack, all do 1 dmg; or you have 1 creature A that does 10 dmg. 1x10=10x1) . But after a battle, it`s different - if you lose a stack, you won`t be getting it back, but if you don`t you have a full stack after the battle  - and that`s out of balance.

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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 06, 2008 12:46 AM
Edited by diegis at 00:54, 06 Dec 2008.

Quote:
Well, he said the attacked stack also does less damage - this means there`s actually no difference in combat (for example, there`re 10 creature A in a stack, all do 1 dmg; or you have 1 creature A that does 10 dmg. 1x10=10x1) . But after a battle, it`s different - if you lose a stack, you won`t be getting it back, but if you don`t you have a full stack after the battle  - and that`s out of balance.


may be, may be not

If we put condition that if the total dmg will reach the health of 1 or n creature(s), then the creature's dead, and the rest of dmg (if any) will be dispersed to the rest of the stack, then we have other situation, right?

EDIT: the rest of the damage is obviously smaller the 1 creature health. I'm saying about that rest will be divided (in that sens I said) to the rest of the stack.
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-knowledge itself is power-
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted December 06, 2008 04:33 PM

Quote:
Yes, true Alcibaldes, otherwise would be the same as now...

We want different, correct?


Only if it gets better. Changing things just for the sake of the change itself isn't worth a lot to me. Changing things and making them worse in the process is downright stupid.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted December 06, 2008 05:03 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 17:08, 06 Dec 2008.

Alci is absolutely right, we have to stop this happy rush of worthless ideas and focus on good ones. Flooding server with pages of random content doesn't seem to be the purpose of this board I presume?

Advanced formulas were already applied to spellpower of H5 stacks and the result is:
firstly, no one can really tell what the actual relation between stack type, size and spellpower is
secondly, logarythmic formula favors single monsters but nerfs legion armies which is unbalanced
thirdly, it is not likely for mapmaker to control the challenge and properties of specific caster stacks so they end up beeing slaughtered by the handicaped AI itself.

So before coming up with 'another' idea, think twice whether it makes actual sense IN GAME.

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted December 06, 2008 05:11 PM

Dude, what if this discussion would have brought up an extremly cool and innovative idea?

It's not worthless.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 07, 2008 02:33 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 14:37, 07 Dec 2008.

I don't think this problem can be solved, as solving it would imply completely redoing the entire flawed battle mechanism of HoMM. In which case it wouldn't be HoMM anymore.

One base problem is that you cannot command individual units, only stacks. You need 100 peasants to kill 1 imp with 1 hp in an action. You cannot send 1 peasant to finish the imp and send the other 99 peasants to deal with another threat.

Another argueable flaw is the retaliation system. 5 Angels can kill 100 imps without suffering a single scratch.

It got even worse in H4 and H5, where they introduced much more individual creature actions such as blocking or casting spells; it's flawed in a way when the entire stack performs such things.

I don't think you can fix these problems without destroying the HoMM-defining battle system. Attempts at doing so will ruin the game, overcomplicating it.


And I agree with Adrius: idea proposes are never worthless. That's a very bad mentality you have there Warmonger.
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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted December 07, 2008 08:23 PM
Edited by diegis at 20:30, 07 Dec 2008.

thx moonlith

I didnt said my idea is good, or the best, or whatever, I just wrote it here cose I couldn't find any other place to share my opinions, and I'm a TOH-er for enough time, even more then DIEGIS character , so this forum met and meet my expectations.

Again, I just like this game since ... no matter, and played it, thats all guyz.

ps: all of the arguments you gave me, havent succeeded to change much, but to improve something about dmg, and for that I thank you all

EDIT: as I said in the beginning, just feel free and delete the thread
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted December 07, 2008 09:57 PM

Quote:
It got even worse in H4 and H5, where they introduced much more individual creature actions such as blocking or casting spells; it's flawed in a way when the entire stack performs such things.



Well, H4 did have the system where attacks and retaliations happened at the same time, which is, in the sense of reality, quite nice. But I get what you`re saying.



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