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| Thread: Random maps generated with template S3-5P2-8Z8K2M. Questions and answers. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 09:51 AM |
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Random maps generated with template S3-5P2-8Z8K2M. Questions and answers.
After discussion in topic "Choosing hero vs random hero" people show interest to play on random maps. I glad to see that, but also new comers to random world get some problems. The biggest problem, suicides ... So i decide to make this topic, feel free to post any question about this template, i will try to answers to any of them. Please notice this topic is for people interested to know RMG, not RMG haters.
-Why random map ?
Because all the time, random map it's new world, exploration, mystery... No advantage here for players that played 1000+ times one single map and know every step on this map... So players must use brain every game, not only experience gained from past 1000+ games on a single map, no solutions like - two steps right, one left and you won the game
Why not like in 3.0 on huge random map ?
No need, in 3.1 rmg changed a lot, large on 2m it's good for play. On huge size game can be too long sometime.
Guards too strong, can't creep
Choose careful what you fight. From start only ~ 20% of neutrals are easy to beat, take experience from chest, not gold to fast level up your hero. Upgrade as fast as possible your main creep units. Be patient, you don't expect to win vs Elit oh Hour Glass in your first game ... Same here, try a game or two in hot seat mode vs AI, i know it's boring to play vs AI, but this can improve a lot your play level. Take each battle from different approach, try and reload, try and reload. Please don't use this in multiplayer online game 
no mana wells
In 3.0 no wells. In 3.1 mana wells are present.
use neutral towns as source of mana
Only ranged neutrals around, i doomed
Never seen situation like this, i don't believe you, be careful i can check after game what guards was on your start zone In 3.1 are many combined guards ranged + melee, they are not so dangerous. To not loose your archers, split them in many stacks. Use your secondary magic oriented hero to kill ranged guards. Build magic guild in town faster.
Random map are unknown black forest to my, i don't see strategic game in that
Random realm are completely different experience from regular game, show some respect to this beautiful world and you will get many, many fun games full of strategy. Some tips on strategy - use more scoots, first priority, scoot your start zone as fast as possible to plan your path for your main hero. Then you get strong army breach your border guard. Send scoots in new zone. It's good idea to go now to breach your second border guard that lead to other zone. This way you will not be surprised by fast opponent attack. In practice this can be hard to do, if your scouts found in first zone many good arts it's very big temptation to go take this artifacts with main hero.
On what day you take mines ?
Basic mines on day one, or two. Other mines depends on guards and faction you play. It's possible on week 1 if guard is melee. Sometime i never take part of the mines. Time of main hero is very precious on RMG. If mine, artifact, gold is not really needed it's better to go explore other zones. Lately in game can be situation your opponent is close to your start zone, you can't leave your zone. Use this time by creeping your start zone. That why in my opinion hi priority is to creep other zones, start zone can wait.
What setup you use to generate map ?
Large map, 2 players (no need to put more players), strong monsters, no water, no sub, exp 4, resources 4, mini map off, tear of asha on
A lot of walking on random maps, i go creep, then i loose time to go back town to learn spells with main hero etc ...
On random map is always a trade between time spend by main hero and what you get from this. If you not need something badly, leave it alone, just follow your life line Use secondary heroes to get less protected items, mines etc ... In middle game use instant travel spell to jump between zones... Sometime you can travel 2-3 zones, instant travel jump and you are home ... In late game use Town Portal spell ... And here coming into play very important game play element, neutral towns... Sometime you glad to have neutral town in your possession, you can use Town Portal to jump to this neutral town, save a lot of time. But another time it's better not to take neutral town cos you will be not able to use Town Portal to travel to other locations if you are close to this town. In my last game i needed badly to teleport to neutral towns possessed by my opponent. Opponent was orc but he build Dungeon town to level 8, he have 50 stalkers in town and so on. I forced to take this town with my secondary hero, i lost 5 cavalier, still my main hero get huge advantage by teleport to this town ...
I got the Hill Fort/Dragon Utopia/etc on my start location, this is unfair to you ?
Not at all. Compensation system working in this case, if you get for example Hill Fort, i have something else what you don't have ...
I got on map one native neutral town, opponent two more, imba ?
Don't think so, some time you will have advantage, your opponent will spent resources to build towns ... Upgrade your army, buy artifacts, make a quick visit to him, victory is yours
Recent games with Camoes show up 2m is real flexible map, on this map player can have two heroes level 20 ! For example if you get control over two neutral fortress towns is good idea to buy fortress hero in tavern and creep him to level 20, build this towns and you have real advantage over opponent. Not easy to do, but possible ... As conclusion is not so important how many native towns get opponent, on this map player have the option to change his faction right in game ! ...
No challenge to beat neutrals after week 3-4 ... Need to choose more strong neutrals ?
Don't think so ... After week 3-4 game switch to player vs player faze, no challenge to beat neutrals with main army, but here come into play another challenges like - war between scoots, challenge to control key strategic points like towns, astrologer's towers etc... And again it's still challenge to beat neutrals with secondary heroes ... This is online game, not offline tourney vs AI ...
Here example/replay how to counter two hero harass One turn final battle. In this game opponent harass me badly. From one side was Dugal with small creep army, from other side Vittorio with triple ballista ... Two turns before final battle i lost two crystal dragons in attempt to catch Vittorio, but he just done damage and flee. At this point of game my morale was real low, after 6 loose in row to opponent i have to loose one more to well done harass ... After attempt to catch Vittorio i lost not only two crystals dragons but also chance to get back in time to defend town vs Dugal ... But i was a bit lucky, Dugal take wrong way, and take road that bring him closer to my main hero, not to my main town ... I take in battle only troops useful for attempt to end battle in one turn to prevent Dugal escape. The rest is in the replay ...
Another example/replay. 3 towns counter. In this game my opponent get 3 native towns vs only one for me ... Then i realize my opponent have 3 towns, i knew, i have to be fast ... In short time i take his main town ... Surprise was my opponent not come back to take his main town even in 2 weeks ! In this time i buy week of hunters, and after happen week of triple grow/income from all sources ... No more words, download replay and see 900+ gremlins in action
I passed 3 zones in one direction, my main hero was 2 weeks walking from main town, my opponent come from second entrance (or used instant travel) to my zone and take my town. How to defend town in this case ?
There are many solutions of this situation:
- Take with your main hero only creep party. Then danger to your town coming, give creep party to secondary hero, attack neutrals with main hero without army, flee from battle. Buy your main hero in tavern of main town. You are home ...
-Sometime to breach guard between zones creep party are not sufficient and you take all army from town to assault border guard. In this case make chain of heroes. Then danger come chain back army from main hero, surrender main hero to neutrals.
-Defend your main town with secondary hero, on 2m is possible to have more hi level heroes.
-If possible breach first both entrances to your zone, this way you will have more time to prepare defense of main town, less chances to loose main town to surprise attack.
-Please scheme of 2m template
Here it is ...
P.S. The new added staff have different color ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 10:23 AM |
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Admirable idea, Infi! Well reasoned promotion should help your cause
On my accord I urge you to try your beloved RMG with custom templates. I don't play them myself but the whole Russian community regard them many times higher than original RMG. They actively use Nevermindspy's IRMG as well. Infi, you are big fan of random maps - be open to these fresh ideas and you might find more followers into the real of randomness  After all, there must be reason why they have totally pushed out original RMG in some communities...
I hope that this thread won't be polluted by spam and off-topic discussions about some maps or mapmakers!
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted December 21, 2008 10:37 AM |
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Quote:
...
I hope that this thread won't be polluted by spam and off-topic discussions about some maps or mapmakers!
You already started the fire
About custom template, strider is right i made few for myself or test, and there is a level of control which can make from a regular plain random map an interesting alternative to custom maps by tuning a bit the richness, guards , areas and some of the boosts, making the map advancing gradually and avoid this flatness of the original templates. It requires some time to be tuned up, and will only be suitable for a particular size, (i.e medium only) otherwise will come out as a mess. The result is playable indeed but it misses that "spark" a custom map can have it (of course few of the custom maps ).
It is a good alternative for hand made ones but my advice, is to choose custom template, cause else u risk to play for 8+ hours a linear game or to have turns week 1.
If i recall correctly, 2 of my custom template ended sim turns just before 2-4 days before the final encounter, because of the guarded hotspot areas, it's controllable , i repeat.
Unfortunately, i changed few times the pc's since and i don't have them anymore, but upon a request i'll waste few hours to remake
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 10:45 AM |
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TO Strider and Teacher. I tried many standard templates for random maps and i find in 3.1 only 2m template good for me. Very good. Right now don't want to experiment with custom templates. In time maybe.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 11:41 AM |
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Good topic in general. Heroes 5 are so young game for now...but one day its will end like heroes 3 = 99% from all games will be on random maps.
Yes we have alot fun custom maps and some balanced in ToH 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 22, 2008 12:47 AM |
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@ Infinitus -- This comment is not intended as a flame.. but as a basis to try and understand if this 2m has as much overall potential as you claim......
- Would you think this 2m is as fun.. if you played as lazlo? Or Razzak??
I guess my point is, you are trying to convince people that 2m is the best random template and new way of playing.. and trying to sell this to your fellow TOH players... but you are doing so with only Limited knowledge and experience of all aspects of possible gameplays on this type of map.
For example as Pera pointed out.. You choose Ossir every game... and with Arcane Archers.. most of these early game tuff battles are ALOT easier then for most other towns/heroes... so it would be easy for a player that ONLY played ossir to grow to like a map that they had overwhelming advantage over there opponent every game and beat them easily every time and climbed up the ranks quite fast while abusing this.
But lets just assume for a moment.. that you was forced to now play NOT Ossir or NOT Havez.. NOT dougal... NOT Haggash etc... you were to play a mortal Hero... Where you now had to struggle to find fights you were actually able to beat... and struggle with what do I do now.. where do I go.. how many turns must I just pass up while I wait till I am strong enough to take even one more fight??? Meanwhile... your opponent is breezing thru every fight effortlessly...
Like I said.. not trying to attack you... just trying to understand... If you truely want people to play this template with you and sell the idea.. you have to have all the facts before acting like an expert.. and only playing Ossir... is FAR from being an expert.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2008 09:10 AM |
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This TOH season only 10-20% of my games are Sylvan. Last game with Sylvan i was Vinrael with Ossir archers. From my personal experience on 2m, i used Kaspar, Telsek with no centaurs bonus. They can do the job for sure. Elit played on 2m vs Lixue. I contacted Elit, here some info from him - "i was haven with Irina, nothing special for my game, i did well, skip some guards ..." I think 2m is playable for random players. I will post more info on heroes used then i get more games on 2m. Maybe is good idea for random players then map is generated to put option "expirience" to 5, not to 3 as usual. This way we get more experience from chests.
Example - i played a lot on UBI server Key to Victory map, i was convinced it's impossible to pass week 2, day 1 death knights guard for Sylvan regular hero (Haggash do this with no problems on week 1, day 7). I was shocked then my opponent used regular sylvan hero and do that ... I was even more shocked then he pass water elemental guard with no archers looses ... After this game i spent in hot seat mode 1 hour trying different approach in battle with death knights, in first 30 min i seen that i can done this but result was instable, in next 30 min i found 100% stable tactic. 1 hour more of training and no archers looses for me in battle with water elementals ... Conclusion - nothing's impossible ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 22, 2008 09:55 AM |
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Quote:
lets just assume for a moment.. that you was forced to now play NOT Ossir or NOT Havez.. NOT dougal... NOT Haggash etc... you were to play a mortal Hero... Where you now had to struggle to find fights you were actually able to beat... and struggle with what do I do now.. where do I go.. how many turns must I just pass up while I wait till I am strong enough to take even one more fight??? Meanwhile... your opponent is breezing thru every fight effortlessly...
Quote:
From my personal experience on 2m, i used Kaspar, Telsek with no centaurs bonus. They can do the job for sure.
Cause Kaspar and Telsek are weaklings when it comes to creeping lmao  You are missing the point here.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2008 10:53 AM |
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How about Irina, Elvin ?
And again about Ossir, if i say - "i will be Ossir"... Any opponent can say - "no, i Ossir this time". NP for me ... All games with Nerevar against me he used Ossir ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 22, 2008 11:03 AM |
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She doesn't count when played by elit, his creeping skills surpass those of most mortals
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted December 22, 2008 04:19 PM |
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Quote:
custom templates
Quote:
They actively use Nevermindspy's IRMG as well
reaally need someone to show me how to combine these, technically
aand.. someone willing to play as such!
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 22, 2008 05:44 PM |
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Need a custom template... that allows for Strong monsters... where the choke break points are really really strong/hard... but at same time.. the critters in your area are reasonable to beable to creep.
For example... the way it is now.. by the time your able to creep and beat most of stuff in your area... you are able to break out and wonder into your opponents area. That poses a serious rushing/early encoutner problem...
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2008 06:10 PM |
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Please, about custom rmg in topic about custom rmg
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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chn-vimp
Hired Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 02:41 AM |
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Edited by chn-vimp at 02:42, 23 Dec 2008.
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i haves same question about map played with u .
I get the Hill Fort ON DAY1 .is it unfair to u?
ocr can get many magic tower.so the orc hero can improve the lev faster . u said some magic well in 3.1.but i never see any magic well on this map.is it not fair to me? maybe we need try more template`
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 10:00 AM |
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Quote:
I get the Hill Fort ON DAY1 .is it unfair to u?
Not at all. Compensation system working in this case, our start locations was so different, it's hard to say for my what exactly is counter for you Hill Fort. For example i got artifact merchant, you not. Also i got from my start zone - Cloak of Death's Shadow, Staff of the Netherworld ...
Quote:
ocr can get many magic tower.so the orc hero can improve the lev faster .
This is true for any map. Depend what you prefer... Orc get 3000 xp, Sylvan let's say can get spell circle of winter. Also if not this system, i think orcs will loose scoots war.
Quote:
u said some magic well in 3.1.but i never see any magic well on this map.is it not fair to me?
On map we played was one magic well, use neutral towns as source of mana.
Quote:
maybe we need try more template`
I tried many templates. Found only 2m good for my taste. 1m is nice too, but sometime simturn end on 1m day 1 ! ... Feel free to experiment with templates maybe you found something better for your taste.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted December 23, 2008 02:14 PM |
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Off topic response.. in response to orcs and magics shrines.. I think that those level 3 shrines for 3k xp should only be useable by orcs with the approriate shatter skill
On a side note, I have played this rmg template several times and it is a very good game. Sim turns lasts in 85% of games very long time, and the 15% that doesn't will be week 1 so easy to reload. As for objects, map balance ect I can't really comment. I always find stuff to do on rmg, and usually I am slower than my opponent.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 02:47 PM |
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To Destro - you talk about 1m ? Cos on 2m simturn stay long 100%.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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DrOwnage
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 10:45 PM |
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Quote:
Need a custom template... that allows for Strong monsters... where the choke break points are really really strong/hard...
Yeah, that's what i'm missing with that Map generator. Boarderguards of 10 lvl 7 (just generated twice with very strong monsters and that's what i got) aren't that challenging and make up for a rather short boring game. If i want to fight at lvl 15 i'd rather use the arena map.
But if there's a way to implement strong Boarderguards, randomly generated maps definitly have their charms.
Btw: All this talk about random vs choose, true fun and Gosuness shows up if you play random (or strikeout) on a random map. But the random maps as they are now don't look that exiting ....
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 23, 2008 11:58 PM |
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What template do you used to generate map ? On 2m even if you run strait to the opponent you have at least level 20 ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 24, 2008 07:32 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 07:32, 24 Dec 2008.
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In middle game use instant travel spell to jump between zones... Sometime you can travel 2-3 zones, instant travel jump and you are home ...
So not ONLY does Infinitus not wanna fight on the 2m random map with normal mortal heroes... but now come to find out... he spends most of the game.. not even fighting at all.. just skipping all the hard stuff. Too Funny!
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