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| Thread: Why does HC hate WoW/MMOs? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 17 18 19 20 21 · «PREV |
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 20, 2010 02:30 AM |
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Edited by Shares at 02:38, 20 Apr 2010.
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I am suspicious on how "correct information" you have regarding WoW as the Cataclysm expansion hasnt even been released and isnt even in beta yet (though beta will start this week or next week for sure).
Yep, you're right! Because I have no knowledge about release date I've never played the game and know nothing of it. I just remember seeing ads on TV months ago and thought it'd be a waste of time doing commercials at such an early stage, but that kinda answers why WoW is popular, doesn't it? It was the first MMO with publicity, even though years before WoW there were lots of MMORPG's that was exactly the same, with the difference of not being Blizzard and not being Warcraft. WoW sold because of solid trademarks and advertisement. Not quality.
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Give some examples of badly written quests to back up your arguments?
I doubt even you can think of five on your own. Besides, I haven't played WoW at all since WotLK came, and doesn't remember all the quests I did, and certainly not the names and stuff. I do remember that most quests up to level 47 was basically "Go kill X Y!"(Or gather X Y by killing enough Z.).
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You obviously didn't play this game past level 10. Lacks tactical aspects? You wouldnt survive a second in Arenas or raids.
There are very few bugs. Can you mention any because it already feels like you are just making things up to make the game sound much worse then it actually is.
Played vanilla to max level (60 I think), BC to 40-something and WotLK to 47. I also made several characters with different races and classes, but the levels mentioned were the highest ones. I really don't care much about arenas and stuff. It's just pressing buttons(I got about a nine to one win/loose-ratio in PvP so I think that I was slightly better than average(I can also say that I only played against opponents of higher level)).
And I can say that just some short time into Vanilla I found a bug where an item had higher sell value than buy value (buy 75 for 75 copper, sell 75 for 25 silver.). The combat system were filled with bugs and glitches (with expansions as well). Like stuff killing you in melee combat from long distances, walking through walls, teleporting etc.
Is that sufficient? I dislike you saying that I know nothing and that I'm a noob that wouldn't even last long enough to start combat. I think that I can say that I'm better than you at every game of this genre(I really do rule)! As I started with: Don't say that I'm ignorant and possess no valid knowledge.
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The game is constantly balanced. How is it bad things to make all playstyles viable and not just have one class that can dps, one class that can heal and one class that can tank?
I didnt play D2 but WoW is already hack and slash. And I dont see what proffessions has to do with that. Proffessions doesnt add much tactical stuff, except if you are a really hardcore gamer and uses Saronite bombs to exploit the Lich king encounter. xD
It is not that they are balancing and tweaking. That's good! It's the fact that they do MAJOR changes to some stuff. Call that balancing? Yeah, I guess you could, but I promise you that no other Blizzard game needed much tweaking, and no major changes. Especially after adding expansions!
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Again, you fail to give examples to boost your arguments. If you claim something like that then add some evidence. I dont know how you played, but when reading this it feels like you didnt get past Northshire Valley at level 6.
All charactars that return are explained. And the ones that return are very few. Again you could have given some examples. '
Mention some plot holes, show me that they exist. Blizzard has a Lore team so they certainly care aboout it or otherwise they wouldnt waste money on cut-scenes and questlines etc.
You can kill Illidan, right? You can kill the Lich King, right?
Let's see. The lich king was freed by Arthas, right? I don't seem to recall what Arthas did right before that.
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Your opinion. WoW has gotten mostly good reviews. There is a reason it is the most popular game of all time. And yet, many of your points are not true and dont make sense in the current state of the game.
Exactly. You're the one implying I'm ignorant and suck at WoW and never "played it for real"!
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Obviously the goal of all
But Blizzard do not make "profit-only games". They have a passion for it. All of their games have good reviews and they have three universes which are the largest in the entire world. There is a reason for that. There is a reason their games have been called the bets of all time. Starcraft the best RTS and WoW the best MMO.
It makes me sad to see that you have such biased opinions about Blizzard Entertainment (it seems to not only limit to the WoW Team).
Why they have good reviews? Any one saying a Blizzard game sucks will have lost his career as reviewer. Saying that Blizzard did not make WoW purely for sales is absurd. It is apparent since it is the only blizzard game with a monthly fee (servers and patching never seemed to be a problem even with decade old games), the only one with continuous expansions. It is a total scheme to get as much money as possible. I really hope that SC2 and D3 will be extremely well made and get close to the service and soul of their predecessors.
I can also tell you that I am certainly not biased against Blizzard. If anything the opposite. The only reason I've played WoW every time a new expansion comes is because I every time have a hope that Blizzard will have made it good. I played vanilla for months. I REALLY wanted it to be ground breaking and unbelievably good, like other blizz games. I was ignorant for the bad stuff. Desperately looking for a touch of Blizzard. Just the fact that they increase the level cap by ten with every expansion means that you won't be able to compete in the game with out all the expansions.
There! have I clarified, explained, exampled and disproven you enough?
Sorry! Missed the part about cut scenes and snow. I guess every thing with cut scenes have a good story and lore. Like Killing Floor. It has a couple of cut scenes!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2010 04:34 PM |
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Yep, you're right! Because I have no knowledge about release date I've never played the game and know nothing of it. I just remember seeing ads on TV months ago and thought it'd be a waste of time doing commercials at such an early stage, but that kinda answers why WoW is popular, doesn't it? It was the first MMO with publicity, even though years before WoW there were lots of MMORPG's that was exactly the same, with the difference of not being Blizzard and not being Warcraft. WoW sold because of solid trademarks and advertisement. Not quality.
There were popular MMOs before WoW. Reasons for WoW success was that it completly remade the concept of MMOs and added lots of new things, Blizzard was already an established company with good reputation and a lot of people came from Warcraft III.
I do not recall seeing many WoW ads BEFORE it got really popular (when the ads with celeberities playing WoW came, such as Mr. T.
In fact, WoW doesnt get a lot of new players. Most trials dont get past level 10, which is something Blizzard is changing with Cataclysm to make the starting zones more attractive and fun.
If you dont even know if the third expansion has been released or not, then I do not think that you should claim a lot of false things about WoW. Its like me saying LOTRO sucks and was only made for profit with zero quality because I only played the trial version.
quote: Give some examples of badly written quests to back up your arguments?
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I doubt even you can think of five on your own. Besides, I haven't played WoW at all since WotLK came, and doesn't remember all the quests I did, and certainly not the names and stuff. I do remember that most quests up to level 47 was basically "Go kill X Y!"(Or gather X Y by killing enough Z.).
Of course I can. But I don't think you would read those quests if I linked them from wowhead.com
You have not played WoW since WotLK, but WotLK has remade WoW. MMO games evolve according to feedback. You seem to think that the game is exactly the same as it used to be. Well it isnt. It is constantly changing and patched. Burning Crusade wasnt the greatest expansion in my opinion. Lots of specs in BC werent viable. But Blizzard looked through these problems and fixed them. No longer are Prot Pallies for instance supposed to get Spellpower on their gear.
I even mentioned in my post that a lot of old world quests are "Kill X boars" and that they were changing this in Cataclysm.
But that doesnt mean that they have a bad story. Lke the Defias story stretched through Level 1 to Level 60 in Onyxia's Lair.
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Played vanilla to max level (60 I think), BC to 40-something and WotLK to 47. I also made several characters with different races and classes, but the levels mentioned were the highest ones. I really don't care much about arenas and stuff. It's just pressing buttons(I got about a nine to one win/loose-ratio in PvP so I think that I was slightly better than average(I can also say that I only played against opponents of higher level)).
The combat system were filled with bugs and glitches (with expansions as well). Like stuff killing you in melee combat from long distances, walking through walls, teleporting etc.
Is that sufficient? I dislike you saying that I know nothing and that I'm a noob that wouldn't even last long enough to start combat. I think that I can say that I'm better than you at every game of this genre(I really do rule)! As I started with: Don't say that I'm ignorant and possess no valid knowledge.
What? :S
So you leveled to 60 and then when Burning Crusade come you didnt level past 60 but instead started a new character and level to 40-something and then in WotLK, an expansion which you previously said you had not played, leveled yet another new character to 47. Sounds suspicious to me but perhaps you just werent very into the game at all.
There is a HUGE difference between Battlegrounds (like 15vs15 or even 40vs40) and Arenas (2v2 3v3 5v5). PvP in WoW is much harder than PvE. Especially in Arenas were you need perfect timing of your abilities, coordination, good teamwork and need to know counters for each class and spec. Its hardly about pressing two buttons. You are basically required to use keybindings in Arenas if you want to survive and Movement and hiding behind pillars etc us crucial for your survival.
What you are saying just isnt true at all and I really, really doubt what you are saying many times.
The value thing isnt a bug. Everything will cost more then too. If this was a bug that worked, everyone would be rich in WoW right now. Which isnt the case.
With the bugs you say that it wasnt fixed with the EXPANSIONS. First BC were you didnt even level past 60 and then WotLK - which you didnt even play? I can safely claim that WoW is the most bug free game of the genre. Blizzard games have always had few bugs. How is teleporting an exploit? There are spells and interface buttons (Auto Unstuck) to do that. There was once a bug with Feral druids attack range but it was hotfixed really fast.
I have never hard of walking through walls, wallwalking however was fixed long ago since people used it to exploit in PvP.
And I have to say that you are clueless here, because what you claim doesnt make any sense. It sounds like you make all these things up cause you either dont like me or WoW. And dont tell me I would be better than me on WoW. I am in a top guild, number 7th on my server, and I can link if you want too.
quote:The game is constantly balanced. How is it bad things to make all playstyles viable and not just have one class that can dps, one class that can heal and one class that can tank?
I didnt play D2 but WoW is already hack and slash. And I dont see what proffessions has to do with that. Proffessions doesnt add much tactical stuff, except if you are a really hardcore gamer and uses Saronite bombs to exploit the Lich king encounter. xD
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It is not that they are balancing and tweaking. That's good! It's the fact that they do MAJOR changes to some stuff. Call that balancing? Yeah, I guess you could, but I promise you that no other Blizzard game needed much tweaking, and no major changes. Especially after adding expansions!
When balancing, you have to make major changes sometime. The Death Knight case is a good example. When WotLK started they were really overpowered and people said that they were supposed to be overpowered becasue they were a "hero class". Blizzard had to change the class big time to make them in order to make them equal in strength to other classes. And in Cataclysm, they will only have one tanking tree compared to three now.
Cataclysm will be like WoW 2. Filled with major changes.
Of course no other Blizzard game has needed so much tweaking, because a MMO is COMPLETLY different from a RTS.
Expansions are a great opportunity to add lots of major changes, which are of course tested before in months of beta.
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You can kill Illidan, right? You can kill the Lich King, right?
Let's see. The lich king was freed by Arthas, right? I don't seem to recall what Arthas did right before that.
No you cant kill Illidan. You can fight him. Maiev and Akama helps you and then Maiev finally executes him.
Why talk about how WoW has destroyed the Warcraft lore when you dont know about the Warcraft lore yourself?
"LK was freed by Arthas?". WHAT? 
Did you even play Warcraft 3: TFT? Arthas becomes the Lich King. In WoW you can kill Arthas (with help of course) but not the Lich King. There is a new Lich King at the end of WotLK, Bolvar Fordragon. The Warden of the Damned.
quote bviously the goal of all
But Blizzard do not make "profit-only games". They have a passion for it. All of their games have good reviews and they have three universes which are the largest in the entire world. There is a reason for that. There is a reason their games have been called the bets of all time. Starcraft the best RTS and WoW the best MMO.
It makes me sad to see that you have such biased opinions about Blizzard Entertainment (it seems to not only limit to the WoW Team).
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Why they have good reviews? Any one saying a Blizzard game sucks will have lost his career as reviewer. Saying that Blizzard did not make WoW purely for sales is absurd. It is apparent since it is the only blizzard game with a monthly fee (servers and patching never seemed to be a problem even with decade old games), the only one with continuous expansions. It is a total scheme to get as much money as possible. I really hope that SC2 and D3 will be extremely well made and get close to the service and soul of their predecessors.
I can also tell you that I am certainly not biased against Blizzard. If anything the opposite. The only reason I've played WoW every time a new expansion comes is because I every time have a hope that Blizzard will have made it good. I played vanilla for months. I REALLY wanted it to be ground breaking and unbelievably good, like other blizz games. I was ignorant for the bad stuff. Desperately looking for a touch of Blizzard. Just the fact that they increase the level cap by ten with every expansion means that you won't be able to compete in the game with out all the expansions.
There! have I clarified, explained, exampled and disproven you enough?
Sorry! Missed the part about cut scenes and snow. I guess every thing with cut scenes have a good story and lore. Like Killing Floor. It has a couple of cut scenes!
There are plenty of revies that say WoW is a bad game. Those didnt lose their jobs. Why would they. I just said that most reviews thinks WoW is a great game.
Of course WoW has a fee. Do you know how much it costs to host hundreds of servers worldwide? Its not like the Blizzard VD just takes all the money WoW gets and puts it in his pocket. With the profit from WoW, Blizzard has been able to increase their employees a lot and today they can work with 5 different games at the same time.
And the level cap is increased with 5, not 10, in Cataclysm.
As the expansion also focuses on making the level 1-60 experience much better.  I think you should try out WoW when Cataclysm comes. It will change a lot of things. WoW will be like a completly renewed. You should give it a shot (plus trial is free too).
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 20, 2010 05:38 PM |
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I started quoting, but your post was filled with strange stuff, and I've always disliked quoting. I'll start with having to yet again repeat myself. Stop saying that I'm stupid, ignorant and know nothing of either WoW or Blizzard! I have held you in much higher regard. You owe me at least some respect!
Commercials: If you didn't see any you weren't looking that hard. Besides. I agree there were a lot more advertisement after release. How ever, WoW is still the first MMO with real publicity. The only famous one. There have been little advertisement for SC2, yet it have more publicity than any other upcoming RTS.
Me playing WoW: Let me clarify, since you apparently misunderstood me:
I played vanilla when it was new. Played something I don't remember to max level and then stopped.
I waited several months until BC came. I played a blood elf warlock or something to a level slightly higher than 40. I then stopped.
I waited until WotLK was released. I played a death knight to level 47.
I have also played all classes and all races, but not all combinations, to level 10-15 or higher. Just to check them out.
I kept score of my PvP, I might have it on the other computer (unfortunatly the power supply is broken and I cannot get it until I have a new one) and could send it to you if you like?
I've played on battlefields and arenas. Found battle fields boring, and was almost the only times I died (really messed up my stats it did) because I was on way to low level first, but as I made progress it just got boring. Not boring and hard.
And yeah. PLaying is just pressing buttons in the right order with the right timing. I have perfected that stuff as well as having an understanding for RPG and HnS leveling/item/skill/such systems. I'm sure that you would beat me at WoW. That does not mean you are better than me, even if I'd think you are. How ever. I can say that I propably would be bettar than 99% of WoW players with some practice. Lucky for me I'm not looking for such practice.
Arthas and LK: If I recall correctly lil LK was stuck in a quite sizely chunk o' ice. Correct? Arthas takes his, as well, sizely sword and beat the not very living snow out of that ice, correct()? This removes the quite sizely chunk o' ice, thus freeing lil LK, correct? Arthas then merges with lil LK?
I thought (knew even) that you knew that Arthas merged with the lich king! I thought that you'd have enough of respect to think the same of me! I don't want to blabber small little details that both of us already know!
Illidan and LK: It doesn't matter if it is you or some one else who strikes the final blow. The point is that Illidan is alive, even though he died before LK was freed and merged.
Conclusion? Two people who did not "live" at the same time are both alive.
That you think that I didn't play tFT at all just because I didn't mention a detail we both knew already is stupid. It really is. Maybe I'm glorifiyng you, but I thought you could figure simple stuff out. Like that Illidan is available for the killings, even though you do not strike the final blow. Still killable!
You have again and again proven that you are not willing to hear my points. you have several times said that I apperantly does not know anything about WoW. You have disrespected me! I hope that you at least can see that. I have tried to keep calm, but is hard for me when people insult me without reason!
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 20, 2010 05:40 PM |
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I didn't know you used to play WoW Shares. To think that I danced with you, aww man, I feel disgusting.  Good thing I don't listen to my feelings in general huh? 
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Living time backwards
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2010 06:20 PM |
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I can't believe what you are writing at the top of your post when it's so obvious that you are making things up.
Death Knights can not even be level 47! ... -.-
Atleast do some research to make it sound believeable if you don't want to simply admit that "It's true, I do not know a lot about WoW and because of that I should not make false claims though I will still express my opinions."
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I've played on battlefields and arenas. Found battle fields boring, and was almost the only times I died (really messed up my stats it did) because I was on way to low level first, but as I made progress it just got boring. Not boring and hard.
What? Are you saying that you killed low levels as a high level in a battleground?
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Arthas and LK: If I recall correctly lil LK was stuck in a quite sizely chunk o' ice. Correct? Arthas takes his, as well, sizely sword and beat the not very living snow out of that ice, correct()? This removes the quite sizely chunk o' ice, thus freeing lil LK, correct? Arthas then merges with lil LK?
I thought (knew even) that you knew that Arthas merged with the lich king! I thought that you'd have enough of respect to think the same of me! I don't want to blabber small little details that both of us already know!
The Orc Ner'zhul was indeed encased in an ice block and was transformed into the Lich King. But when you say that Arthas freed him it sounds wrong. It sounds like Ner'zhul just flew away from Icecrown and you didn't even mention them merging.
They became one, but Arthas became the dominant part in the merge - and the last piece of his humanity saved life from the Scourge in WotLK.
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The point is that Illidan is alive, even though he died before LK was freed and merged.
No where in Warcraft 3: TFT do we see Illidan die. In fact, even before WoW there were sound files in Wc3 where he escaped. In the RPG books it also stated that he survived.
Illidan had to idea in one way or another. If I was writing a book I would have killed Illidan. Illidan went insane. He had nothing more to do. The only thing I could see as possible is Mal'furion ressurecting Illidan to train a new generation of Demon hunters against the Burning Legion.
I don't see this as insults, it's called counter-arguments and are always exists when two people debate and don't agree with each other. You could also call that critism of claims.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 20, 2010 08:39 PM |
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No where in Warcraft 3: TFT do we see Illidan die.
Now you're just regurgitating what they tell you.
Illidan's CHEST WAS SLICED OPEN AND HE STOPPED MOVING.
Dead as a doornail.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2010 08:48 PM |
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So? Maybe Vashj came and instantly healed him? And then Kael ported them to Outland.
We know Blizzard intended Illidan to survive BEFORE WoW so it doesn't matter. There are soundfiles where he lives.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 20, 2010 08:54 PM |
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So? Maybe Vashj came and instantly healed him? And then Kael ported them to Outland.
We know Blizzard intended Illidan to survive BEFORE WoW so it doesn't matter. There are soundfiles where he lives.
Yes, because Vashj is known for having curative powers, like cyclone and forked lightning!
And, maybe, they decided against using those sound files for a reason? Maybe, the writing staff didn't consist out of crackheads and idiots and decided that they'd better to have a story without cliffies? And you can't deny it has been most definitely shown Illidan died. You know it has been shown in such a way that it would be entirely unbelievable had they used those sound files afterwards.
You're probably also one of those people that think king kong shouldn't have died and romeo and juliette have a lousy ending!
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 20, 2010 08:54 PM |
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Ohforf: I know! My biggest weakness is that I'm gullible and naive. Every time I thought it would be different. Mainly because all WoW fans constantly says that all the bad stuff you mention will be fixed in the next expansion. Heard that with BC, WotLK and now with Cataclysm.
It's funny that even when I explicity tell you what you do wrong here you repeat it. Maybe there's some glitches and minor details in my arguements. The details does not render the main arguement wrong. Saying that I'm wrong because you don't kill Illidan yourself for example. It doesn't even remotely change the outcome. Any how, I gave you a last chance. You have yet again proved yourself. I wont continue. Consider that a win by walk over if you like. I usually do that with people I don't respect.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2010 09:04 PM |
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You do know that Vashj used to be a Night Elf Priestess?`Just because she doesnt heal in-game (neither does Tyrande or Mal'furion) doesnt mean she can't heal lorewise.
Either way, they brought Illidan back to give us in goal in Burning Crusade. But Blizzard screwed up the Burning Crusade lore completly anyway and even said sorry for it.
That discussion didn't lead anywhere anyway I guess.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 20, 2010 09:35 PM |
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malfurion does heal in-game...
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2010 09:47 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:52, 20 Apr 2010.
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Oh I forgot about the Tranquility spell. xD But there are a lot of other examples and you get the point.
btw I thought I should add this to the post.
I have killed Arthas now. ^^
Here my Orc Hunter stands before the new Lich King - the Jailor of the Damned. I am so incredible happy, the feeling of completing something and closing a circle. I got this today and the feeling is awesome. It feels like I have finished WotLK, but yet there is more that I wish to accomplish.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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EvilLoynis
Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
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posted April 18, 2011 08:02 PM |
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Ok well I only read basically the first page of this thread so don't know if someone mentioned my reason for not playing this game at all.
While I do not like to have to pay a monthly fee I could have gotten over that as long they gave me the option to play it offline without that fee. I mean first you had to buy the game to install, basically the box and discs, and that gives you NOTHING. If they were only going to give the monthly subscription option they shouldn't have bothered making people pay for the box or even need the disks, it should have just been downloadable.
A game that comes to mind is Diablo2, they have an online version or offline. If they had made me pay to play on BNet I wouldn't have minded.
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"I am both selfish and instictive. I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2011 08:44 PM |
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Monthly fees are fine since it costs a lot to maintain the servers of those games and they updated them regurarly (though tbh on WoW, it has slowed down a bit since the best in the WoW team went to move on to Blizzards new next-gen MMO "Titan")
Anyway, I LOL:ed at saying this thread come back. ^^
I no longer player WoW and the reason for that is... unknown. Its really weird because I thought WoWs latest expansion was GREAT 5/5 NO QUESTION. That they remade the old world lvl 1-60 was fantastic and those quests are so much more enjoyable now. There is a true, consisent story over the whole world and I can't wait to see what Sylvanas and the Forsaken are really up to, because I don't believe they are going to be happy with conquering Lordaeron!
Cataclysm also brought back the WAR to WARcraft as lorewise, the Alliance and Horde had been in a Cold war-like state.
Now it sounds like I am playing it, but now I am not. I am still intersted in the game and its development of course and there is no doubt that I will reactivate my acccount for atleast a month every time a new patch hits et cetera and play for a while when new expansions launch.
I have tried many other MMOs, but none of them can compare to WoW at all. The main problem with other MMOs is that they tend to be clones of WoW and that is absolutely not what I am looking for.
If I want an MMO like WoW, I will play WoW and not anything else. I want a new MMO that is new, fresh and DIFFERENT from WoW. I am very confident that Blizzard will be remaking the MMO genre with their next-gen MMO which should be really different because it is not supposed to replace WoW though Blizzard developers have predicted that Titan will eventually "eclipse" WoW.
So Xerox still thinks WoW is a great game, but since Xerox played it for so many years and played hardcore in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, WoW has bored him. Xerox thinks the Cataclysm expansion is great, but WoW has just grown old and boring to him. Xerox is very confused on why he doesn't seem to be attracted to WoW anymore and he hopes that Titan will make him addicted.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted April 18, 2011 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
Titan
Source fast, plz, quick, thx!
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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