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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Battle Effects
Thread: Heroes IV: Battle Effects This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 19, 2001 05:37 PM

Just a few things

I wonder if the five is the five spells spellcasting creatures get?  Anyhow, it seems like the whole magic thing is going to be changed a lot.  If all heroes had the same chances of getting the same spells, we would end up with the same thing they were trying to avoid from H3.  By level 30 or 40 all heroes would be almost the same (well most)  I feel they are really working on something to make the hero more important and more individual.  Now, if you want a balance between might and magic, you can have a magic hero and a might hero in the same army anyhow.

Back to battle tactics:
  With only being able to hire 1 hero a week, I think the ability to move armies w/o a hero will be important for scouting purposes.  Also, once you hire a hero, they are yours forever, even if dead or in a prison somewhere, so you don't have to worry about another player hiring your advanced hero.  I don't think we have to worry about not having enough of both tactics and strategy in this game, but I also think many of the ones so good in H3 will be worth much less in H4.
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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted December 19, 2001 05:45 PM

Only 1 hero a week?

Where did you get that from Tristan?  I don't like that idea...  So if your hero dies you can't hire a 2nd hero? Or what about if you captre a new town, but need to defend your old town, you can't hire a new hero? This will really slow the pace of the game down, everyone is too worried to attack much or send out a weak hero since he killed be killed by wandering monsters and you are thru for that week.

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 19, 2001 06:00 PM

I got the "one hero per week" from www.hmm4.com

But you do not NEED a hero to fight with an army, you could send out 7 stacks of creatures by themselves to fight and if your hero died fighting neutrals, there will be a tombstone there.  You can then send out an army to bring the hero back to town and ressurect them.

Anyhow, like I said, the game will play differently
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 19, 2001 07:31 PM

The one hero per week probably originates from the Russian interview with the 21 screenshots.

However, I found the translation of it a bit ambigious. It said you would be restricted in the amount of heroes you can hire, but not any details about it. As you can see below prices will vary from 1,500-2,500 Gold.

Perhaps the restriction is 1/week or 1/tavern, or perhaps 2/week. What we do you is that you will be restricted.

This is the translation i got of it. "Anybody knows what the translation of the word "naym" could be.

There are in the locks other buildings - for example, karavany., with the aid of which it is possible to send troops into the given points. Caravans replaced the system of " second heroes " from the foregoing parts of seriala. Recall, how many neprokachennykh heroes you used exclusively for the purpose of dovoza of " luggage " to the basic manchkinstvuyushchego character. In the taverns is achieved naym of heroes, true, prices now are varied from one-and-a-half to two and one-half thousand by gold, depending on the type of hero. Together with the expansion of selection (of 11 types of heroes) is introduced the limitation - naym of times in the week (good-bye, the tactics of the exhaustion of polygon from the approached the lock powerful/thick magician with the aid of tens of zero heroes). For this very reason in the game there is a possibility to resurrect the hero (with Dada - after damage/defeat it it does not return to the pool of hire), and not only in the walls of city, but also in the specially diverted places, scattered along the map/chart/card.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 19, 2001 09:08 PM

1 a week

I heard about the one hero/week thing on Hmm4, they had a poll asking about peeps thoughts on it.  Of course, they may be wrong, and I could be as well.

Something else about heroes, I get the feeling that when you hire a hero, you will get just that, a hero.  No army to start with.  I mean, since it is possible, it would make sense to me.  No, I didn't read this anywhere, just thought it up on my own.  

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 20, 2001 06:39 AM

Battle Tactics and Heroes.

Tristan:

"With only being able to hire 1 hero a week, I think the ability to move armies w/o a hero will be important for scouting purposes. Also, once you hire a hero, they are yours forever, even if dead or in a prison somewhere, so you don't have to worry about another player hiring your advanced hero."

I agree. Yes, without the hero present, the creatures must be quite fast, as then you will be able to move further each turn. But since heroes are not compulsory it would be different since the heroes contribute to the armies skills and spells as such. I think you will have to pay some gold to the player who has captured him don't you?
I was annoyed when you came across your old hero- but would loyalty and morality prevent the hero from revolting to the other side? Thats a good change in Heroes IV i feel.

"But you do not NEED a hero to fight with an army, you could send out 7 stacks of creatures by themselves to fight and if your hero died fighting neutrals, there will be a tombstone there."

Right, Tristan, that is the way i see it too. Heroes are an asset if you've got one, but as i said, they are not needed, just preferred. Also creatures are much like heroes in many ways, they can cast spells and control an army in a certain way. So there are a few similarities.

Djive:

"As you can see below prices will vary from 1,500-2,500 Gold."

I always thought having different price brackets for heroes was a good idea. Tis distinguishes the heroes and what skills and artifacts they may possess from the beginning.

With that text, caravans will take place of what i like to call 'backup heroes' which will save you from buying another hero. You could just use a caravan to transport you to your destination. Kind of like those transport boats in Age of Empires. Another good idea, i think. Although i really don't like the name of a 'caravan'.

Tristan:

"Something else about heroes, I get the feeling that when you hire a hero, you will get just that, a hero. No army to start with. I mean, since it is possible, it would make sense to me. No, I didn't read this anywhere, just thought it up on my own."  

Well, it seems liable to me, it could well be true. Since heroes may fight by themselves without creatures, so i don't see the need of putting creatures along with a hero at the start when you recruit him.
There are other facts about that have not been discussed properly yet, but we'll find that out in due time.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 20, 2001 03:43 PM

. I think you will have to pay some gold to the player who has captured him don't you?

No, actually the only way to capture an enemy hero is to have a town with a prison built in it.  To get the hero back you will have to conquer that town.  

If your enemy does not have a prison, then it will be a gravestone, just like a wandering monster would leave.  Of course, you would lose any artifacts and potions.

If your hero dies, but your army wins, then you just have to ressurect the hero.

At least this is how I understand it from interviews I have read.

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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted December 20, 2001 04:15 PM

Heroes

You have to figure that the heroes will still be needed to have a distinct advantage in battle, so being limited to 1 per week however it works is really difficult especially on larger maps.

The one thing that makes me worried is that without a hero accompanying your armies they can switch sides if confronted with an enemy army. I don't think I would send out any army that might be converted without a battle, too much risk.

As for caravans, I think one advantage of them will be that your armies disappear off the map and reappear only when they reach their destination, that is what I got from the info so far anyway. I like that- so two benefits I see immeditaly with tactical advantages; firstly no enemy can convert them or kill them in battle before they arrive at their destination- secondly this should mean that your opponents can't determine what their destination is before they appear. So you keep them guessing. That's nice- I just wonder what happens if you lose the town you were sending them to before they arrive, do they reappear on the map just outside that town or reappear however far towards the destination they had traveled so far, I see problems with that in a turn based game.

We'll have to see how it happens... also- I don't think very any of the creatures cast spells maybe 1 or less from eacy town and also a few neutral creatures. So the creature spell casting is rather limited. Also I don't know if creatures can use potions or not, if not then they might be even more limited. It seems the strongest thing will be ranged units and direct damage spells as there are the only way to strike without recieving substantial damage yourself because of the retaliation system.

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 20, 2001 07:13 PM

___
You have to figure that the heroes will still be needed to have a distinct advantage in battle, so being limited to 1 per week however it works is really difficult especially on larger maps.
___

I am pretty sure that is just for hiring heroes, you would still start with one plus one hired, you get 2 in first week.  If the map is large enough that more are needed, the mapmaker should maybe add a few random heroes to the map.

Creatures with hands will be able to use potions, and missile units will recieve retaliation from other missile units.


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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 21, 2001 01:14 AM

Heroes and Battle Tactics.

Replies:

Tristan:

"No, actually the only way to capture an enemy hero is to have a town with a prison built in it. To get the hero back you will have to conquer that town."

Thankyou for enlightening me, Tristan on that aspect.
Hmmm. So building a prison would not be a very good idea unless you have quite a strong garrison army guarding it, preventing it from being conquered. So that means building a prison could turn out to be a plus or a minus. Its one of the risks you take when you build one. I would construct one in my strongest town, as it has less chance of being conquered.

"If your hero dies, but your army wins, then you just have to ressurect the hero."

Yes, so it really doesn'y matter who wins, just that together you all are victorious.

Ichon:

"You have to figure that the heroes will still be needed to have a distinct advantage in battle, so being limited to 1 per week however it works is really difficult especially on larger maps."

Right, so keeping a hero in good stead is vital if you need to win a big battle or capture an enemy town, since heroes come with the extra attacks and spells needed to help your creatures have a better chance at winning. Artifacts can only be held by heroes and have a great deal to do with battle as you would have found if you read my artifacts thread.

"As for caravans, I think one advantage of them will be that your armies disappear off the map and reappear only when they reach their destination, that is what I got from the info so far anyway. I like that- so two benefits I see immeditaly with tactical advantages; firstly no enemy can convert them or kill them in battle before they arrive at their destination- secondly this should mean that your opponents can't determine what their destination is before they appear. So you keep them guessing."

I agree, Ichon. When armies can go around the map unnoticed by anyone, it creates a double effect. On one hand, nobody may be able to see you anywhere you go, and pickup extra resources and create mines from them on the way. This helps your income since when a hero takes it back, you can just take it back again without being noticed-sort of. This is because they reappear for one or two turns i think, so you will be vulnerable for that duration.
But on the other hand, the enemy caravan could be doing the same back at you, so there are two sides to it. Caravans can be extremely useful when utilised properly and are a real asset to the heroes series.

"We'll have to see how it happens... also- I don't think very any of the creatures cast spells maybe 1 or less from eacy town and also a few neutral creatures. So the creature spell casting is rather limited."

My understanding of the situation is that one level 3 creature may cast spells of his own alignment, but has a limited number of them like you said.
Also some summonable creatures have the capacity to cast certain spells, but I am not too sure about that fact as yet.

Tristan:

"Creatures with hands will be able to use potions, and missile units will recieve retaliation from other missile units."

Yes, that was also my feelings about the topic, Tristan. If a devils claws, then a Devil may use a potion. Shooters retaliate against shooters is a fair idea, just if they still can while another enemy unit is next to them.

Excellent thoughts.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted December 21, 2001 08:29 PM

Wow

I've never seen any thread get so many intelligent things said on it. Wow
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted December 22, 2001 07:38 AM

Quote:
Jenova:
Yes, that is quite a good question, and to be honest, i don't think many people know the answer to it!
My guess is that it probably will, since the attack has nothing to do with the creature next to it, since the shooter on the other side fired the shot, and not the attacker next to him.


Yeah I know.. Just that for some reason in Heroes (and D&D) when a shooting unit has an enemy standing next to it, it can't use its ranged attack.. Not exactly sure why this is so (perhaps the adjacent unit would block the path of the target?).. But since it has to use a melee attack, it probably can't retaliate against a distant archer.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted December 22, 2001 07:46 AM

I had a question about artifacts.. Are they like in previous Heroes where they grant a bonus to the troops or is it just for the hero now? For example, Dragon Slaying Sword +5 gives +5 attack skill (which no longer exists) to your entire army, or are they now like D&D (and other RPGs) as items for the hero to equip in combat (and only the hero gets the bonuses). Without the old primary skills, I would presume a sword artifact would grant extra damage or something like that. Then what would armor do?
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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted December 22, 2001 06:40 PM

Beats me.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 22, 2001 06:59 PM

Jenova asks:Yeah I know.. Just that for some reason in Heroes (and D&D) when a shooting unit has an enemy standing next to it, it can't use its ranged attack.. Not exactly sure why this is so (perhaps the adjacent unit would block the path of the target?).. But since it has to use a melee attack, it probably can't retaliate against a distant archer.

I am no great archer, but I have shot a few times, and I am sure that I could not concentrate on a distant target with someone waving a sword or claw in my face.    I also think part of the idea of missile units doing reduced damage at range is because more shots would miss at long range.

____


For example, Dragon Slaying Sword +5 gives +5 attack skill (which no longer exists) to your entire army, or are they now like D&D (and other RPGs) as items for the hero to equip in combat (and only the hero gets the bonuses). Without the old primary skills, I would presume a sword artifact would grant extra damage or something like that. Then what would armor do?
____

Attack artifacts would increase damage given, while armour would decrease damage received and heavy armour also slows you down.


I also noticed that it seems some creatures have different defense against ranged and melee attacks.  Interesting


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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 23, 2001 07:14 AM

Inquistive Questions....

Xenophanes:

"Wow

I've never seen any thread get so many intelligent things said on it. Wow"

Thanks. Battles are not something which has been very widely pondered in HoMMIV, and the idea was in need of expanding if we're to know about it.

Jenova:
"Yeah I know.. Just that for some reason in Heroes (and D&D) when a shooting unit has an enemy standing next to it, it can't use its ranged attack.. Not exactly sure why this is so (perhaps the adjacent unit would block the path of the target?).. But since it has to use a melee attack, it probably can't retaliate against a distant archer."

Hmmmm. Yes, but the enemy stack that is adjacent to your ranged attacker doesn't always block the way of your shot, so i wouldn't see se much trouble if the shooters retaliated against each other regardless, as i've said before.
Well, if they choose to, shooters can use their melee attack anyway, and they will have to use it when blocked by an opponent.

"For example, Dragon Slaying Sword +5 gives +5 attack skill (which no longer exists) to your entire army, or are they now like D&D (and other RPGs) as items for the hero to equip in combat (and only the hero gets the bonuses). Without the old primary skills, I would presume a sword artifact would grant extra damage or something like that. Then what would armor do?"

Well, I myself think that artifacts are like D&D and other RPG's when you may equip the artifact to the hero. My beliefs are that you may have to choose the bets artifact for that area of the body. Say you choose a light shield when attacking against archers, since you can move faster, but when attacking against you can afford to go a bit slower, so use the heavy armour.
The armour will help your defensive status against attack from impending creatures, i think. Staves help the heroes magic bonus in some way.

Tristan:

"I also noticed that it seems some creatures have different defense against ranged and melee attacks. Interesting"

Yes, it is interesting, isn't it? This is probably because of what armour or skin they have on, and could be better against long distance attackes, or close ones. Maybe creatures are affected if an attack hits them directly or ploughs straight into them, but this is news to me.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted December 23, 2001 07:26 AM

Offtopic: Bonuses applied

If ever a recent thread deserved the Inspiring rating, this one does. Several of the participants in this discussion have been awarded bonus points, and there may be more forthcoming. The points awarded thus far are for the overall quality of the discussion in this thread more than for any specific post.

Thank you all.
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Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted December 23, 2001 02:34 PM

Spellcasting creatures: They certainly should have only the spells of their hometown alignment. Since the spells leveling is not know (at least to me) I can't say which spells they should be able to gain, and which not.

Archers retalitation: I'm not sure how will it work (as we all do ), but I thought how would that change some aspects of HOMM. I thought, that Sharpshooters won't be such a big advantage as they were, because now they can't take out the enemy's archers before they do anything, they'll get some treatment back, but it'll be not as big as from close combat, but, maybe, will be enough.

Heroes: I totally agree with not giving creatures to heroes at the beginning.
Artifacts changing: Completely impossible and ridiculuos. Jsut think of these: Where does the hero keeps all the unused atifacts? (the horse, which isn't at the battle) How can someone change things while in fight? ("Chaaaarge!... Wait! That's the wrong sword! Ooops! The behemots are injured? Maybe I should wait with the sword change...").
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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted December 23, 2001 05:33 PM

About the Archer thing and the new retaliation - this is bound to give Chaos Magic, and therefore Asylum, a huge advantage in combat. Asylum heroes will probably be able to come out of battle with the smallest ammount of losses to their troops.
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barbarian
barbarian


Famous Hero
posted December 23, 2001 05:44 PM

Xenophes can you explain to me why will the chaos hero win a combat with a small amount of losses? I didn’t understand what is your point.

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