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| Thread: Heroes IV: Battle Effects |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 23, 2001 05:49 PM |
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Sure.
Whenever you attack in Heroes IV combat, you can't kill outright. The thing you attack gets a sort of "Deathbed Retaliation". Being thus, Even if a Black Dragon kills, say, 100 Dwarves outright, the Dwarves get to retaliate, which might kill the Black Dragon, too, leaving them both dead. You cannot even avoid this by shooting; if you shoot at another shooter, it will retaliate by shooting back.
Now, Asylum specializes in Chaos Magic, which focuses on doing direct damage. So, they can just fire a lightning bold or meteor shower, and the creatures will not retalite. This means less harmful creature retaliation, and therefore less losses in combat.
This puts Asylum at a good advantage in Heroes IV.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 23, 2001 05:51 PM |
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Spellcasting creatures: Agree on this one. Only the town's alignment.
Archers retalitation: My point of view is that if you manage to place one of your creatures adjacient to the archers, then they won't be able to retaliate. I hope only ENEMY creatures will obstruct line of sight, so this may remove the retaliation for the shot.
If Sharpshooters can fire at any range without penalty then that is enough as a special, the retaliation may be at 1/8 of the strength and will not hurt much.
Another ability which could be instersting is to extend first strike to apply for shooters.
And the spell that gave an additional strike could also apply to shooters, or have a special version for shooters.
Heroes: I also agree. No creatures when you hire a hero.
Artifacts changing: One of the interviews said it would not be allowed to swap artifacts you equipped during battle. What will be possible is that you can use Potions and similar items directly from the backpack (or wherever it is that Potions are stored).
From the screenshot I hazard a guess that artifacts that can be used during batttle are added to the spell-book so you can access them through it. Some items may require to be equipped before the spells/abilities they give appears in the spell-book.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 23, 2001 05:59 PM |
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I'll "hazard a guess" that all artifacts such as armor and weapons that are going to be used during battle must be equipped before battle.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 24, 2001 01:01 AM |
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Heroes IV: Battle Effects
OK. Good discussion going on here, keep it coming. 
Slava:
"Spellcasting creatures: They certainly should have only the spells of their hometown alignment. Since the spells leveling is not know (at least to me) I can't say which spells they should be able to gain, and which not."
I also agree on this topic. Creatures are not as proficient spellcasters as heroes, and should only be able to cast spells that heroes of the same town will know.
Its just pure common sense. Why would a mage be able to cast life magic? It can't. Where it was recruited, in the academy, they only learn order magic.
"Artifacts changing: Completely impossible and ridiculuos. Jsut think of these: Where does the hero keeps all the unused atifacts? (the horse, which isn't at the battle) How can someone change things while in fight? ("Chaaaarge!... Wait! That's the wrong sword! Ooops! The behemots are injured? Maybe I should wait with the sword change...")."
Right, he doesn't have a backpack that can house 15 artifacts-considering the size! Its unrealistic.
Artifacts being switched in battle is a bad thing and i'm glad it is not happening. Thats where strategy comes into it, you have to choose the best artifacts for the battle, as i've said before.
Xenophanes:
"Now, Asylum specializes in Chaos Magic, which focuses on doing direct damage. So, they can just fire a lightning bold or meteor shower, and the creatures will not retalite. This means less harmful creature retaliation, and therefore less losses in combat.
This puts Asylum at a good advantage in Heroes IV."
Well, yes, in that aspect. But Heroes IV isn't all about direct damage. It can be likened to chess. You plan the moves before you actually execute them, so things like life magic, where you resurrect a fallen stack, the enemy is not able to retaliate, because it isn't an attack. Its not direct. Same thing with death magic, they can specialise in Death direct damage spells, which are considered powerful. They can also summon skeletons. So i wouldn't worry about unbalanced alignments. Its also the way you use them, you may not like to go full out with armageddon, instead you could like enhancing your creatures to make them stronger. Its all the way you play the game-this also determines town choices. So magic is quite imortant, you gotta choose whats right for you.
"I'll "hazard a guess" that all artifacts such as armor and weapons that are going to be used during battle must be equipped before battle."
Correct Xenophanes. It becomes more strategic this way. Instead of swapping artifacts in battle to suit your needs, you must make the decision first,so you have to plan battles-not just leap in as some people may have done in their first heroes experiences.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted December 24, 2001 06:19 AM |
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Mind if I remove my Moderator's hat and join in?
One thing seems fairly certain. If an army with a proficient spellcaster hero in it shows up, converting that hero into a tombstone or a guest in my nearest prison becomes a high priority.
All the magic schools have a potential to swing the battle in your favor. Chaos can do direct damage to your troops. Life can presumably restore damaged troops during a battle, thus effectively multplying your army. ("Darn it! How many times do I have to kill those blasted Crusaders?") Nature can summon extra troops. Order may charm your army into not fighting before the battle even starts, and is said to use illusions (which ought to be very interesting to deal with) to make your life miserable in a fight. Death will weaken your opponent, and if I recall correctly, Animate Dead can raise not just your fallen troops, but your opponent's as well. ("Hey! Where'd those skeletons come from? And where did my dead halflings go?")
All of this boils down to spellcasters having a big target painted on them in any fight. And, with the skills a good Might hero is likely to have (Archery, Tactics, Resistance, etc.), they're probably going to be tasked to take out that spellcaster ASAP.
On another note, given the cost of high level dwellings and Level 4 creatures, and the increased deadliness of combat, the brunt of our fighting is likely to fall on the lowly Level 1 and 2 troops. When a huge stack of peasants can wipe out your precious Level 4 troop, you're likely to be more cautious about using it. To extend the chess analogy, even a pawn can take a recklessly exposed queen, so the Level 4's will have to be used carefully. And let's not forget, damage is apparently only healed at the end of the day , so a 'wounded' Level 4 (or your hero)is going to have to be even more careful if you try multiple combats during the day. (This means the old tried and true 'rush' is going to be a bit more risky)
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted December 24, 2001 06:47 AM |
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Shucks, yeah! Mods can have points too! :)
Yes, with healing happening only at the end of the day, some things will change. First, fighting multiple battles on the same day will be more risky, and second, healing spells and potions will be more valuable.
As for magic heroes being a major target, yes, I think this may be a huge change in battle tactics, in that you have to worry about protecting or exposing your heroes. I think that even might heroes will change some factors in the battle besides the damage they can do themselves.
As far as retaliation, I have seen nothing so far to show that units will have unlimited retaliation strikes as a rule, so using "cannon fodder" troops to absorb the retal should still work, but just be more important than before in many cases. Units with first strike would be good to use to soften up big stacks as well, and some of them are low level. At least I think I heard that pikemen will have first strike. It does seem apparent that you will need to use good combined arms strategies to do well in fights.
Another thing with healing, do units heal completely at end of day, or only so much? If it is limited, it would change even more the strategy of sending your main off with a few L7s (well, L4s in H4) to take care of all those little fights.
One other thing, I think the different towns will surely play much more differently than ever before, so with heroes more unique, towns more unique, creatures more unique, it seems like every game will be that much different and need that much more thought put into it to play well.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 25, 2001 10:19 AM |
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Battles and Magic...
"One thing seems fairly certain. If an army with a proficient spellcaster hero in it shows up, converting that hero into a tombstone or a guest in my nearest prison becomes a high priority."
Correct. Although it is no longer compulsory to have a hero in your army, it is certain that having one provides a great asset to your creatures and chance of winning. The hero also helps you with your spell capabilities during battle. But i wouldn't like a hero in a side with weak creatures, as it would be wasting a perfectly good hero if another powerful army troops past and defeats you. So you're best 'equipping' heroes to your strongest armies, in order to strengthen them more. But of course, if you only have two heroes, you can decide to join an army, but personally, i would use a caravan.
"All the magic schools have a potential to swing the battle in your favor."
Right. So really, Xenophanes, just because chaos has this certain bonus, it doesn't mean that they'll have a huge advantage over other magic alignments. Its the way you and your hero while cooperate using the magic alignments and spells. Unka displayed this point very creatively.
Heroes need to have proficiency in that certain skill if you want your spell to be effective in battle. This is why you're best going with the alignment your hero is part of, if you strive to become better in other alignments, yes it will be a bonus, but it will also take a deal of time to get everything to full strength. But if you just want the capability to cast spells, its best off just learning them without too many enhancments, or it will affect your knowledge progress throughout your own aligment, which you have the greatest spellcasting potential in, anyway.
"On another note, given the cost of high level dwellings and Level 4 creatures, and the increased deadliness of combat, the brunt of our fighting is likely to fall on the lowly Level 1 and 2 troops. When a huge stack of peasants can wipe out your precious Level 4 troop, you're likely to be more cautious about using it. To extend the chess analogy, even a pawn can take a recklessly exposed queen, so the Level 4's will have to be used carefully."
Yes, although the level one and two creatures are relatively weak, the come in multitudes, so their stacks can be deadly if you get them onto quality units quick enough. Very good.
Creatures which can be likened to bishops, only being able to move on a limited amount of squares can have difficulty moving from one side of the battlefield to another, so you can take your time when attacking these units, sinc they're not as potent in the early battle as some other chess likened creatures, knights.
In chess, knights may leap over opponents and allies, much like the flyers of our beloved game. Flyers have the ability to fly over and attack quickly with ease, and often with potency. So shutting these units down and confining them with mid air combat can be useful if you want to launch an unexpected attack with your ranged attackers, and nobody can prevent them from executing that action.
There are many similarites between the pieces of chess, and the creatures of heroes, i being a chess player, can see them. And i'm sure others can too. 
"Another thing with healing, do units heal completely at end of day, or only so much? If it is limited, it would change even more the strategy of sending your main off with a few L7s (well, L4s in H4) to take care of all those little fights."
Ye, Tristan, this is something i also found interesting about Unka's post. Healing at the end of the day will obviously wipe out any possibility of the same type of healing tent we saw in Heroes III.
And yes, it will, as always with something new, induce strategy changes. And instead of having fun and destroying weak armies with your mediocre units, you might be more inclined to use your big guns to finish them off quickly and do as much damage as possible.
"One other thing, I think the different towns will surely play much more differently than ever before, so with heroes more unique, towns more unique, creatures more unique, it seems like every game will be that much different and need that much more thought put into it to play well."
Another thing with towns, Tristan. Not only are there these aspects you mentioned to choosing desired town, but with this, another major, major aspect of battle comes into play. When you choose a town, you also choose three alignments capable of learning. For Asylum, Chaos(Major) and Death and Nature(Minors) Now it has become more complex. Now when you choose a town, not only do you have to choose a creature and hero setup, but you also have to choose what spells are useful for the game. Making campaigns very, very tactical.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted December 25, 2001 08:19 PM |
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Just another quick thing I thought of.
If your hero(es) flee from battle, would your creatures have a possibility of joining the enemy? If so, this could cause some changes too. 
Oh, and Merry Christmass all
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 25, 2001 09:56 PM |
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Quote:
If your hero(es) flee from battle, would your creatures have a possibility of joining the enemy? If so, this could cause some changes too.
When it comes to fleeing and surrendering I wuuld probably have made it work something like this.
Surrendering can work the same way, although I believe you could restrict the option of surrendering to when a hero has a turn, and the surrender option is instead of the hero's usual option. This works against the tactics of casting a spell first and surrender later on, since it would be the spell-caster that does the surrender.
It also has a tactical significance of if the enemy manages to take down the heroes then you can no longer surrender.
When it comes to fleeing, had I been designing the game I would require the fleeing stack to move outside the battle area, and some battle-areas could be restricted in which direction an escape can be made. If it takes aboput three turns to move across the batttlefield this is reasonable approach.
Since I assume you will lose the creatures at any rate, it is not necessary that a creature stack can flee at all. Instead the creatures could continue the fight until the opponent has taken them down. In some cases you may want to flee anyway for instance if you fight a Necromancer with a legion of Squires, and you don't want the Necromancer to recruit them as Skeletons. Not sure how I would handle that. Not allowing stacks to flee, clearly gives Necromancers a small edge.
So fleeing could be restricted to heroes, and indeed it could be a way to get a wounded hero out of harm's way, leaving the fighting to the rest of the army. The hero has served a purpose already be preventing pre-combat effects as Charm and Diplomacy.
Of course, if the hero flees to avoid being striken dead, the fleeing hero should get no XP, and the player will also lose any post-combat effect that hero was capable of. It's however another matter where such a hero should appear if the army the hero left behind wins the combat. It's reasonably to let the hero appear with the victorious troops, but it could also be an alternative to let the hero appear in the nearest town; although generally I don't like this idea of instant 'teleportation'.
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted December 25, 2001 10:12 PM |
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 31, 2001 04:27 AM |
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Sorry, people, I've been on Christmas Holiday!!
Anyway, let me get back to the reality...
Thats interesting there, Djive and Tristan.
"Surrendering can work the same way, although I believe you could restrict the option of surrendering to when a hero has a turn, and the surrender option is instead of the hero's usual option. This works against the tactics of casting a spell first and surrender later on, since it would be the spell-caster that does the surrender."
Hmmm, yes, since you would naturally like to inflict some damage to the opponent, and i find it quite often that i come across a weaker hero, and all that army does is cast a spell and flee. So as you say, it works both ways, and i have to agree with you there.
Tactics and spells, and even artifacts can even come more into surrendering. Maybe you could be able to sacrifice a lesser artifact for a chance at escaping.
"So fleeing could be restricted to heroes, and indeed it could be a way to get a wounded hero out of harm's way, leaving the fighting to the rest of the army. The hero has served a purpose already be preventing pre-combat effects as Charm and Diplomacy."
Well, yes, in a way, heroes could happen to be the only one that flees, reading what you have said previously in your post. As we have disucces, a hero is a very important part in an army, and at high levels can be worth maybe 4 or 5 black dragons, taking into account the statistics are true. I think heroes will have the capability to reduce effects of secondary skills in battle, which can prove tricky.
When the heroes are defeated i would like to see them keep their skills, since when being repossessed and captured, nothing dramatic would really affect their knowledge in any way, so its seems more logical this way.
OK, onto the creature side of fleeing.
One small hiccup which can be resolved i see is where would the creatures go.
I would have an idea to introduce a secondary skill = Loyalty, which would determine how many of your creatures cross over and revolt to the conquerer. This would be the more 'strategic' way around.
Another possibility is to just let the creatures continue to fight, and then on a separate turn, they also flee. If they flee, they can continue around the adventure map from the nearest unoccupied castle or town that they own. If they don't have one, they start from a neutral one.
Or- finally, they could just disappear from the land completely.
Oh yeah-maybe the creatures could be put in a 'pen' where they are kept until the hero who first possessed those creatures returns and repossesses them.
But really, nothing is certain with this topic(hero fleeing). So we may make suggestions and evaluate, but it can't be changed. But its good to think.
Thanks for the link, barbarian.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted December 31, 2001 06:26 AM |
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The experience and skills of your heroes are yours for the whole game as far as I can tell. Nothing makes you lose a hero, just the use of that hero for a time. Not only can you not hire your opponents heroes, you can't hire your own. At least that is the way I understood it. I am not sure what happens when a hero flees (Maranatha indicated that flee/surrender work basically the same way in an interview) but that hero will serve only you, and if you can get them back into action, they will be as good as they were before (less artifacts of course)
Hope you had a good Christmass Hydra, and welcome back, I missed you and this thread.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 31, 2001 08:08 PM |
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I've been wondering...
In all the Heroes games, there is always the option of fleeing a battle or surrenduring. However, I have never seen a computer opponent surrendur. They seem to only retreat. I wonder if this will be changed in Heroes IV?
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2001 10:16 PM |
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Quote:
Thanks for the link, barbarian.
Your welcome.
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It's optional.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted January 01, 2002 03:31 AM |
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Thanks, Tristan, missed all of you people at the community, too.
"but that hero will serve only you, and if you can get them back into action, they will be as good as they were before (less artifacts of course)"
The first part of that fact sounds good to me, and is the way i have heard it, too. Its really sounds illogical if a champion hero, who has been adventuring for the Orange team for 3 months, suddenly reverts to taking part in the attack against his former team. So that's good that 3DO have made it the way it is.
But onto the 'less the artifacts of course' bit of it, i don't know why this is so.
Yes, previously in all the HoMM series Heroes have lost their artifact, but as we know, there have been many big changesto heroes, and i can't see why they can't keep the artifacts they previously possessed.
Where do they go when they have been taken away?
To the strongest hero of the town which has captured him?
I think Heroes should keep everything they came with-in surrender or retreat.
The difference is that surrenduring means you must pay gold- and all creatures stay, but the creatures don't stay, and you don't pay money. The Hero also gets captured and loses artifacts.
Retreating means to get away-not to be captured, so they can at least leave the artifacts.
"In all the Heroes games, there is always the option of fleeing a battle or surrenduring. However, I have never seen a computer opponent surrendur. They seem to only retreat. I wonder if this will be changed in Heroes IV?"
Yes, they do, and when they return, they have the same amount of creatures, and skills AND artifacts. This is the same as surrenduring-without coughing up the gold.
The computer retreats early in the game because it knows it can't win, so it casts a spell and retreats. Whatever the heroes do-is a mystery. Do we go through the same process as them? Are the differences-if so, i think it should be changed.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted January 01, 2002 08:16 PM |
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I've heard that in Heroes III, the AI had some glitches in it that made it cheat - like give itself extra resources or be able to build more than once per turn in the same town - perhaps one of these was retreating and coming back with all the creatures.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted January 02, 2002 02:45 AM |
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Sorry about not clarifying that more, I meant the losing artifacts if your hero was beaten by another hero and your army was defeated as well. I am not sure what would happen if your hero and army were defeated by a heroless army controlled by an opponent, you could lose artifacts that way as well, would make sense to me since heroless armies can carry (but not use) artifacts.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted January 03, 2002 07:57 AM |
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Heroes and Artifacts.....
Thats interesting... I have heard about some glitches in the library discussions i've been reading, and they are proving to be quite a mystery.
Some of these glitches could include more creature growth per weak, and returning heroes with all previous creatures, even though they retreated, not surrendured.
Extra resources would be very beneficial to the town, but i'm sure we all know that the computer isn't very smart-most of the time, so i'm not sure what it would to about the matter. But if it was using it to the castles benefits, I would hope that these glitches will be fixed.
In that case, Tristan, i would agree with you. It woulds seem silly if a hero was defeated, and somehow retained all his/her artifacts, even thought the army was also defeated.
I tend to lean towards that decision too. I don't think the artifacts will be taken, instead just lost in the defeat on the battlefield.
A question i would like to broach are the conditions on surrenduring. I have heard it is quite similar to the one in Heroes III, but i would like to think differently, because of the creature-hero split.
I, thinking logically would suggest that heroes may move faster than some creatures, and slower than other such as Black Dragons. So would this effect the way the army retreats?
My own personal feelings about this matter is that the hero would be able to flee first, since they can be separated, and then the creatures continue until thye also retreat or are defeated. So what i'm saying is that i think heroes and creatures will flee on separate turns.
What are your feelings on the matter?
(I feel we're gaining much from this discussion. )
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Slava14
Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
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posted January 03, 2002 08:09 AM |
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Nice thoughts
Maybe, if a hero and his army are defeated, the winner may choose neither to take the arties or leave them to lay with the dead hero. If they choose to take they'll get something like morale loss or even worse.
Also I thought that a very good strategic/tactical battle addon would be splitting stacks in the middle of the battle, instead a move the group will split to two. It's copletely logical, because dividing armies in the middle of a battle to attack from several directions at once is a good tactical move which can be done in RL combats.
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted January 03, 2002 08:16 AM |
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Well........
I think that if a hero flees, the army is on its own. Yes, if you surrender you should be able to keep your army, but fleeing seems to me like you are saying "hey, keep this army off my back, I am out of here!" Somehow I have a hard time believing that your army would want anything to do with you after that
I heard somewhere, that you had to use your movement to get to a spot you could flee from, not sure if that is true or not, but it does make more sense than being able to flee from right under the dragon's nose in the middle of the battlefield. Unfortunately, we will probably have to wait until the game is released to know for sure the answers to some of our questions. Shoot, maybe nobody knows right now, I heard that they were playtesting and balancing right now. I even read somewhere (gotta remember to pay attention to where I read this stuff) that creatures will no longer be able to use potions, it was unbalancing the game too much. Dunno, but I am pretty sure that they want to make the best game they can, so I am sure they will have reasons for whatever they do.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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