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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 04:50 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 17:01, 18 Feb 2009.
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I was planning to make it quite mediocre from stats and make him like ultimate hexer. I tought these for the tier 7 core creature:
Weakening Strike, Sorrow Strike, Hexing Attack, Crippling Wound
So "perfect attack" would result following hexes to target:
o -2 attack & defence,
o -3 morale & luck (Sorrow expert),
o one of these:
weakness = -20% damage,
slow = -35% Initiative,
suffering = -9 Attack,
vulnerability = -5 Defense,
o speed -40% and Initiative -20%,
o blindness removed.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 18, 2009 04:52 PM |
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I'd remove Blindness, it gets too overpowered then 
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 05:01 PM |
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Quote:
I'd remove Blindness, it gets too overpowered then
True  Blindess be gone.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 18, 2009 05:07 PM |
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I'm not soooo sure about crippeling wound. Maybe for one of the upgrades? For the basic maybe it's a bit much? I mean imagine slow+crippeling wound oO. It's close to blindness.
I maybe wrong though since that situation would be quite rare I believe? Anyways I like the idea of a statwise medicore creature that excells in casting.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 05:16 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 17:19, 18 Feb 2009.
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Heh, I'll do some testing (like 1 on 1 with other tier 7 creatures with similar stats heros) and see how high/low advantage those hexes give compared to other t7 abilities.
Anyways, here are two different result of Scion's attack:
 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 05:30 PM |
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you say the stats are low, but from what I see, he is unupgraded, so it's not that bad.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 05:43 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 13:26, 19 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
you say the stats are low, but from what I see, he is unupgraded, so it's not that bad.
Well, have to do some tests. It doesn't matter if those hexes wont aid him that much. Stats are mediocre, not low.
Tests, one on one
==================
All heroes: Deleb, Demon Lord. Skill Gating, no secondary skill. No war machines. No arties. Heroes defend.
Scion vs. Angel
Scion attacks with 54 damage + weakness and sorrow. Angel retaliates with bad luck, damage 20. Angel loses turn (bad morale).
Scion attacks with 53, Angel retaliates with bad luck, 18. Angel loses turn. Scion attacks and kills Angel. Ok I guess DemonLord + Angel isn't that fair. For second time Scion also won, and I'll bet third time will have the same result.
Conclusion: Angel has no change without some bonuses.
Scion vs. Cyclop
Cyclops start and move closer. Scion attacks with 46 + weakness, sorrow & crippling wound. Cyclop retaliates with 21. Cyclop loses turn.
Scion attacks with 37, Cyclop retailiates with 38. Cyclop hits with 34, Scion retaliates with 54 + weakness, sorrow, cw.
Scion 60 + 2 hexes, Cycs ret. 32.
Cycs hit 32, Scion ret. 62. Cycs die.
Conclusion: Cyclop died when Scion had still 73 hp left. Overpowered, but no as much as with Angel.
Scion vs. Black Dragon
Yes you heard right, BD.
Scion owned BD having ~30 hp left.
Conclusion: Even without Crippling Wound, Scion is way overpowered. I'll nerf him later, no more modding today 
Actually it's Sorrow Strike that makes it so overpowered: With -3 luck and morale, rarely having your turns and retailiations with minimal damage makes you lose for sure. Maybe I'll change this skill with some minor one.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2009 11:40 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 23:47, 18 Feb 2009.
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how did he beat a black dragon which is stronger and immune to magic (thus to hexes) ??
btw, your comparison sheet isn't that good, you have to consider the growth of the bone dragon.
did the cyclop triggered bad luck in his 1st retaliation? because despite being affected by weakness expert, he inflicts 21 damage, then 38.
and then he inflicts 34, whereas the scion didn't attack him since the last retaliation, and as a consequence, couldn't lower his attack.
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Darkwulf
Hired Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 12:08 PM |
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Hah, scion seems far more like an undead now, but be careful, a master at dark spells will probably throw off the balance, as a necro ive had tier 7s paraliez because of low morale even though I was far weaker, and I won... So just be careful with it , Oh, if the creatures unupgraded, are the upgrades going to be hexers too? or a hexer and a blesser? or the like...
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 01:24 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 14:11, 19 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
how did he beat a black dragon which is stronger and immune to magic (thus to hexes) ??
btw, your comparison sheet isn't that good, you have to consider the growth of the bone dragon.
did the cyclop triggered bad luck in his 1st retaliation? because despite being affected by weakness expert, he inflicts 21 damage, then 38.
and then he inflicts 34, whereas the scion didn't attack him since the last retaliation, and as a consequence, couldn't lower his attack.
First of all, the comparison sheet is far larger than the screenshot I posted including growth and abilities as major, mediocre or minor. I just don't see any point posting all those charts here. I posted a screenie so people can see SOME stats comparison (and that this mod isn't dead).
The Black Dragon case, I forgot Scion got luck bonus since I forgot to change random arties to something else. I'll post battle log for you as I now take another clash against it.
Scion attacks BD 45 + weakens (weakening strike effect as permament, it is not considered as spell btw.). BD rets 51.
BD attacks 68, Scion rets 50.
Scion 50, BD rets 47.
BD attacks and wins.
BD had like ~90 hp left.
Cyclop did trigger bad luck. But just in case, I'll have another clash:
Scion: 51 + weaken strike effect + weakness + sorrow. Cycs rets 42.
Cycs: 42. Scion rets 59 + slow.
Scion: 57 + suffering. Cycs rets with bad luck 11 (!).
Cycs lose turn (but I let 'em have one by making Scion to wait).
Cycs: Bad luck 11. Scions rets and kills.
So even I gave cycs "extra turn" he couldnt lower Scions HP below 90.
Next round will be against Giant, Shadow Dragon and Fire Dragon.
vs. Fire Dragon
Scion 38 + WSE + Weakness + Sorrow. Fireshield 8 + ret 34.
FDragon 34. Scion rets 47 + slow. FShield 9.
Scion 49 + suffering. Fshield 10. Fdragon rets 20.
Extra turn for scion.
Scion ??. Fshild 10. Fdragon rets 20.
Fdragon ??. Scion rets and kills. Fshield 9.
Scion had 15-30 HP left as he finished FireDragon.
vs. Giant
Scion 48 + WSE + Weakness + Sorrow. Giant rets with bad luck 19.
Giant 38. Scion rets 52 + slow.
Scion 53 + suffering + crip.wound. Giant rets 10.
Giant loses turn.
Scion finishes.
Scion had like 133 HP left totally owned.
vs. Shadow Dragon
Scion attacks 60 + WSE + weakness + sorrow + CW. SD rets 39.
SD attack with bad luck 19. Scion rets 67 + slow.
Scion attacks 64 + suffering. SD rets 23.
Scion extra turn and kills
Scion had 119 left as he killed SD. Much too OPd.
Nerfing:
- min. damage dropped from 41 to 30. max. damage from 50 to 40.
- sorrow strike removed.
- added Acid Blood.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 19, 2009 03:33 PM |
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I don't know, to me tests like these aren't really appropriate, because you simply can't test like that with all the randomness there is in this game (such as Luck (good or bad), Morale, etc)
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 03:55 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 17:05, 19 Feb 2009.
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Very true, Asheera.
But what we CAN see here is if the creature is way too strong or weak. Even if enemy creatures had 2 morale and luck, it will be lowered to -1. This kind of hex-power is ok if your tier 7 creature is weak like Necropolis' Dragon, but Scions are bit better in stats. I believe that if Scion would lose to 1-2 creatures at least once, it's more balanced.
However, I'll run series of tests when all creatures are ready by playing several maps and maybe even the Inferno campaign This will help me also in the future when I'll (hopefully) create strongly story based campaign for Oblivion.
BTW. Scion now has following stats
A 25
D 26
dmin 25
dmax 35
hp 170
speed 8
init 10
He had a match against Fire Dragon with those stats and FireDragon managed to kill him but died in Scions Acid Blood so attacking hero won but was sent to Tarvern since he had no army left.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 19, 2009 06:51 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:59, 19 Feb 2009.
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If your creature will rely on debuffs, it's an idea to make it weak in attacks, but strong in survivaling. If it's not very strong in stats, it can be strong in debuffs, they will compensate the power level.
Stats proposal - add 1 initiative, remove 1 speed, remove 10 hp
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 07:22 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 19:30, 19 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
If your creature will rely on debuffs, it's an idea to make it weak in attacks, but strong in survivaling. If it's not very strong in stats, it can be strong in debuffs, they will compensate the power level.
Stats proposal - add 1 initiative, remove 1 speed, remove 10 hp
That proposal sounds good, Vokial.
Yes, that's what I have in mind. I don't value heavy tankers and simple minded rushing that much. I'm more into tactics & planning, and want to create a creature that can fatally disable strenghts of enemy units, and isn't that strong physically himself. I may remove some max. damage as well.
One good example of my vision will be tier 6 2nd upgrade, Innocent Soul. He has very odd stats but if you think of it little bit, you may guess what he's for 
Innocent Soul
A 9
D 9
Dam 1…32
Init 8
Speed 9
HP 90
incorporeal, invisibility, purge, crippling wound
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 19, 2009 09:33 PM |
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Quote:
Dam 1…32
What does that mean?
Minimum damage 1 and max 32?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 09:44 PM |
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looked at your stats again.
tier 2a and 2b seem too strong (compared with crossbowmen)
tier 5 and 5a too weak.
tier 6b totally imba, he will actually deal 50 - 70 damage on the primary target and 25 - 35 on secondary ones thanks to stormstrike.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 10:13 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 22:28, 19 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
Dam 1…32
What does that mean?
Minimum damage 1 and max 32?
Yep. He's incorporeal / invisible bless remover / hexer The main purpose of this character is to dispell good spells from enemy and cause harm with Crippling. Incorp. makes him less likely to be hit, as well us invisibility. So damage is not the point in this case.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2009 10:26 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 22:30, 19 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
looked at your stats again.
tier 2a and 2b seem too strong (compared with crossbowmen)
tier 5 and 5a too weak.
tier 6b totally imba, he will actually deal 50 - 70 damage on the primary target and 25 - 35 on secondary ones thanks to stormstrike.
I haven't made tier 5 + ups yet so these stats are flexible at this point.
Same goes for 6b, I havent made him yet so we'll see...
You are right about 2a and 2b, and not only because they pwn crossbowmen but Centaurs as well. Have to tweak a bit.
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removed Crippling Wound from Scion since ISoul has it and Scion has a change to apply slow, so...
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 19, 2009 10:58 PM |
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It's not about the amount of damage inflicted, but 1-32 is silly. I don't care about the average overall damage, you can keep it still at 16.5, but lower the gap. This creature will be so weird that sometimes it will deal 32 times more damage than sometime else. Not to mention when blessed with Divine Strength or cursed with Weakness, its effect will be very much adjusted.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2009 08:59 AM |
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Edited by kainc at 18:23, 20 Feb 2009.
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I may reduce the gap a bit, but he still has to be the strange one
=================
Kain Cougar's modding weekend
Expect some intense upgrading this weekend. I have little to do since my GF goes to see her parents for whole weekend (I'm not in a mood going myself this weekend since I have night-shift @ work next week). So I'll grab couple of Spitfires @ sauna and might come up with some brilliant or less-brilliant ideas for the Mod. So stay tuned
=================
Well what do you know... Some days ago I managed to * up Oblivion hero map blue model (blue flag carrier). He's appearing fine in battlefield (and preview of course) so this problem is only for adventure map model. I tried to make him to use Knight's model but here's what happened:
For me it seems that hero has DemonLord's skeleton and Knight's textures and stuff.
here's the code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<Model ObjectRecordID="1002133">
<Materials>
<Item href="/_(Material)/auto-imported/Heroes/Knight_LOD/Knight_lambert.(Material).xdb#xpointer(/Material)"/>
<Item href="/_(Material)/auto-imported/Heroes/Knight_LOD/Weapon_lambert.(Material).xdb#xpointer(/Material)"/>
<Item href="Knight-flag_Blue.xdb#xpointer(/Material)"/>
<Item href="/_(Material)/auto-imported/Heroes/Knight_LOD/Horse_lambert.(Material).xdb#xpointer(/Material)"/>
<Item href="/_(Material)/auto-imported/Heroes/Knight_LOD/Weapon_lambert.(Material).xdb#xpointer(/Material)"/>
</Materials>
<Skeleton href="/_(Skeleton)/Heroes/Knight/KnightLOD.(Skeleton).xdb#xpointer(/Skeleton)"/>
<Geometry href="/_(Geometry)/Heroes/Knight_LOD.(Geometry).xdb#xpointer(/Geometry)"/>
<Animations/>
<WindPower>1</WindPower>
</Model>
please tell me what L O D stands for (I know it has something to do with adventure models)
Can this <Model ObjectRecordID="1002133"> (from DemonLord_LOD_Blue) mess up hero's skeleton since the actual <Skeleton> has valid path?
Sorry for flooding with edit post
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