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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Sex and drugs
Thread: Sex and drugs This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
pandora
pandora


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posted February 04, 2009 05:05 PM

Quote:
Pleasure is the feeling that you experience. However it is distinct from other forms because it attempts to control your brain.

For a comparison, it has the same relationship to joy/happiness/bliss like pain has to sadness/sorrow/depression.


Here's a lovely example of stating an extreme opinion as fact

This is so not fact.

I think I need to try to let some of this sink in a bit before replying to some of the points raised.

I do agree that drugs should be legalized. Legalization provides a means for control and monitoring usage, as well it takes something from being taboo and not openly discussed - to something where more information can be openly distributed and people can make informed decisions.

As for sex - there are many cases of sex addiction - however this is not the norm for everyone. There are all sorts of reasons that people think that sex is good, not just as being simply for pleasure - but it also forms a deep connection between you and your partner. But for whatever reason you choose to have it, I don't think that anyone should try to make something natural between consenting adults appear as something that's bad. naturally I'm stating this as my opinion sex=

If you feel that its bad - please use the IMO disclaimer, people have enough guilt forced on them for following natural instincts - I see no reason to further enforce that :S
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted February 04, 2009 05:11 PM

Quote:
Here's a lovely example of stating an extreme opinion as fact
What is 'extreme' in there? And that doesn't say anything about 'bad' or not, because obviously that is left for my other arguments (with that quote I explained and answered JJ's question, not given arguments why it is bad).
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pandora
pandora


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posted February 04, 2009 05:13 PM

Oh, so you meant that it attempts to control your brain in a good way?

I always took mind control as bad - sorry
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del_diablo
del_diablo


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posted February 04, 2009 05:18 PM

Quote:
Legalizing drugs isn't the best way. It will increase crime for those who cannot afford them but they will want it because of addiction (and which wouldn't even have drugs otherwise).


My dear Death, you forgot someting. We already got a crimrate onto drugs, we already got beggers wanting money for drugs. Legalizing it would create reasonable prices compared to what it is, fewer deaths, and it would destroy a part of the black marked.
I am for legalization until there is a better option.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted February 04, 2009 05:22 PM

Quote:
Oh, so you meant that it attempts to control your brain in a good way?

I always took mind control as bad - sorry
Depends what you mean by bad, obviously I consider it bad no matter what. If someone controls my brain and make me save the world, I consider it bad, because it may not be what I want.

But still, the basic idea (if you want me to elaborate) is that, just like pain vs sadness, the former comes from the body, the latter is a product of the brain (or "heart", metaphorically speaking ). The body actually tries to control the brain (in pain's case, it makes you feel that thing, which may make you do certain things).

One good example why pain is irrational is when you have some surgery or something: that's why you need anesthesia.

And yeah I consider all mind-controlling bad, then again I consider most non-rational things bad.
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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


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posted February 04, 2009 05:30 PM

*fails willpower check*

before i start with my post... TheDeath... thanks for ruining my favourite Discworld character :/
Quote:
Quote:
overall, I think it's merely logical instinctual that Sex is better that drugs
See your correction
And that's precisely why it is that way, because instincts always try to CONTROL your brain (mind-control). No, I am not talking about reflexes, but about those that release all sorts of substances and act as neurological stuff on the brain. It is clearly not coming from the brain, and logic comes from the brain. In fact, the reason they are used in the first place, is that if you HAD deep logic and an active brain, you wouldn't do it.


i will try and be as gentle as possible, but after reading your rant the first thing that came to mind was "who the **** told you that instincts and reason are mutually exclusive?" ...every single thought we have comes from the brain and the neural system in general ...unless you want to follow some medieval brand of medicine that claims emotions come from the heart, the liver or the spleen's second cousin twice removed from the mother's side

Quote:
How can you move a shark that doesn't want to move to east? Give him some artificial smell towards that direction. They called this experiment the "mind controlling" of the sharks even though they did not even touch its brain, they only gave it an artificial (virtual) smell towards that direction. And guess what? He went that way.


sharks are quite efficient at what they do, but compared to other species, they are quite primitive (and fairly unchanged almost since the time of the dinosaurs), so your argument has about as much weight as saying that plants try to move towards sunlight

Quote:
Pleasure is the feeling that you experience. However it is distinct from other forms because it attempts to control your brain.

just because some crazy guys on the internet say it, doesn't mean its true... leasure doesn't try to control your brain any more than sweat tries to control your pores ...since you value your intellect so much, how about using it for a change instead of swallowing whatever you are told hook, line and sinker?

Quote:
For a comparison, it has the same relationship to joy/happiness/bliss like pain has to sadness/sorrow/depression.

as the Bard says... proof please, kthnxbai

Quote:
That's the problem. They do NOT have the "brains" to decide, well they do have but are mind-controlled. That's what pleasure DOES. Do you ever wonder why it needs to release all those substances into the brain and stuff like that? Because it needs a "shut down the conscious/logical reasoning" function in order for you to want it. That's why it happens. That's what makes it different than any entertainment or drama experienced (which is more like art, and usually is processed by the right-hemisphere of the brain ).

and once again... according to whom? ...who the **** told you that during sex the brain shuts down and you turn into a mindless drone that does nothing but have sex? ...sure, there is the time and place for hot wild mindless sex, but most of the time its the mind games that are the most fun (if you can't see how or why, please take this voucher and ask for an imagination at the door)

Quote:
Drugs are easier to skip first TIME only because you do not experience them beforehand, while sex is built-in (and mind you, nature did it for procreation because humans wouldn't BREED otherwise and we would go extinct, it attempts to mind-control us). So your brain gets controlled by that.

ignoring the ridiculous and unfounded mindcontrol bit... you've never heard of horrible first times when it comes to sex, right? ...or is that exactly what you are afraid of? (or maybe had your first time and decided it was just not worth it because it sucked)

Quote:
Legalizing drugs isn't the best way. It will increase crime for those who cannot afford them but they will want it because of addiction (and which wouldn't even have drugs otherwise).

legalising drugs is one sure way to seriously hurt the dealers and cartels, try again

Quote:
And the last thing that makes sex similar to drugs: sex-related crimes.

people commit crimes for any number of reasons, by your logic sex and drugs are the same as elementary school lunch money, politics, religion, revenge and flying pink unicorns

Quote:
Question: If you were given the chance to get rid of the drug that is released during sex (and what constitutes ALL THE PLEASURE), would you accept it and have a less wasted life? (after all, who doesn't want to be 100% conscious all the time?)


snow no! ...whats the point in that? sex is like tango... it takes two (okay, sometimes its like a conga line, but that only reinforces my point) ...if you have sex just for your pleasure, you're a selfish little twat that deserves no sex ...selfish moments are ok, selfish sex life will leave you alone with your hand

and a parting fun fact... something for you to consider:
dolphins and bonobo apes are the only animals besides humans that have sex for fun and other reasons other than procreation... both are among the top 10 of intelligent lifeforms on our planet...
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted February 04, 2009 06:04 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 18:12, 04 Feb 2009.

Quote:
before i start with my post... TheDeath... thanks for ruining my favourite Discworld character :/
You mean your quote-war?

Quote:
i will try and be as gentle as possible, but after reading your rant the first thing that came to mind was "who the **** told you that instincts and reason are mutually exclusive?" ...every single thought we have comes from the brain and the neural system in general ...unless you want to follow some medieval brand of medicine that claims emotions come from the heart, the liver or the spleen's second cousin twice removed from the mother's side
Dude, so when you take drugs (real drugs) it comes from the brain that "feeling high"? It is CONTROLLED by that substance.

By the way, instincts and reason are mutually exclusive. Instincts are used precisely because we may not be smart enough (in some cases) to use our reason to deduce something. Take sex: ask some asexuals why they don't like it. What about their reason? Well they MAY have sex to procreate, but that's it. Nature of course, doesn't want to rely on our reason (seeing as our ancestors were pretty dumb), so it made an "override" switch called instinct.

You know, it's like being pre-programmed to do something, which you otherwise wouldn't (by reason alone).

Quote:
sharks are quite efficient at what they do, but compared to other species, they are quite primitive (and fairly unchanged almost since the time of the dinosaurs), so your argument has about as much weight as saying that plants try to move towards sunlight
They are primitive because they cannot resist that smell/pleasure/whatever. We can.

Besides, you ask for proof, I give out examples and analogies to other species, now you say it has no weight because it's a different species (you, KNOWING that testing people like this is impossible since they can overcome their instincts 'willingly' during the experiment). Typical. It's like trying to avoid the inevitable.

Quote:
just because some crazy guys on the internet say it, doesn't mean its true... leasure doesn't try to control your brain any more than sweat tries to control your pores ...since you value your intellect so much, how about using it for a change instead of swallowing whatever you are told hook, line and sinker?
Unlike you, I do not base this on what others' say (well I do at least from studies ofc, I'm not a researcher myself who has done experiments).

Why does the body release all sorts of stuff into the brain when you feel pleasure?

This simple LOGICAL question is all that you need. It does it because it attempts to control it to do something. Of course there are cases in which you would do it anyway: suppose you want to have children and are asexual. You do it, even though there's no pleasure -- therefore NO MIND CONTROL. By reason alone have you done it.

Now suppose you're not asexual, but you want to have children as well. Does mind-control help? Not at all, you would do it otherwise as well. But these aren't the only cases and are in fact the rare occurences.

Mind control is about giving you pleasure because that way your brain is shut down. Suppose you feel pleasure when someone eats you -- isn't that controlling your mind? Of course, if you have a strong enough will, you can overcome it and run away, ignoring the pleasure. (of course pleasure is nature's way of controlling you and most of the time it wants your species' survival).

Quote:
as the Bard says... proof please, kthnxbai
Nah no matter how much research is done on lab animals (obviously can't be on humans) you'll still cling on to it like some religious dude till the very inevitable, because you hope it is not true.

There is no such thing as proof here apart from reasoning and possibly what I have ALREADY said (mind you, you might make a connection if you hadn't quoted my every bit one by one ). Happiness is a result of the brain itself. Pleasure is a result of substances/stuff/signals TO THE BRAIN.

The former is a result of the brain (no matter if it's artistic (right-hemisphere) or logical (left-hemisphere). The latter is a result of your body -- and obviously with the brain you actually 'feel' all of it, so your BODY makes your BRAIN feel. Your BODY MAKES your brain do X (make you feel).

That's as straightforward as it can get: if you can't see how the above is exactly mind-control then it's end of debate.

Quote:
and once again... according to whom? ...who the **** told you that during sex the brain shuts down and you turn into a mindless drone that does nothing but have sex?
No that was my way of saying it bluntly straightforward. It doesn't shut down totally of course, but there are neuro substances released into your brain. What do you think they are used for?

And more importantly, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY DO? Make your brain stronger or attempt to DISABLE your conscious normal feelings and control it by outputting "X" where X is pleasure?

It's just logic. Like in computers. Say you have an input signal, and the output is this input doubled. This is normal feeling and makes it conscious (in this example). You add something (possibly a virus), and it interrupts the signal, giving an inverted signal as output. And this leads to your conscious feeling weird and not even being able to add 1+1 (well that's more like drunkness). What do you think just happened? Can't be mind-control right? (sarcasm)

Quote:
...sure, there is the time and place for hot wild mindless sex, but most of the time its the mind games that are the most fun (if you can't see how or why, please take this voucher and ask for an imagination at the door)
Those happen already because substances are released prior (hormones for example).

Quote:
ignoring the ridiculous and unfounded mindcontrol bit... you've never heard of horrible first times when it comes to sex, right? ...or is that exactly what you are afraid of? (or maybe had your first time and decided it was just not worth it because it sucked)
You ask me for proof and you say ridiculous things like these?

I suppose someone who hasn't experienced much with drugs (not just first time, like you said, but must be a really addicted junkie) can't say anything about it. Or maybe someone who hasn't cut his own hand cannot say anything about those who have cut it? Right?

Quote:
legalising drugs is one sure way to seriously hurt the dealers and cartels, try again
Quick Google gave this. Note that I may not necessarily talk this subject since it's not the main points in my post (see argument 4 btw).

Quote:
people commit crimes for any number of reasons, by your logic sex and drugs are the same as elementary school lunch money, politics, religion, revenge and flying pink unicorns
lol what?
I said that both give a reason for crime. Why is it that you think ridiculizing something is going to help against an argument?

Quote:
sex is like tango... it takes two (okay, sometimes its like a conga line, but that only reinforces my point) ...if you have sex just for your pleasure, you're a selfish little twat that deserves no sex ...selfish moments are ok, selfish sex life will leave you alone with your hand
Oh yeah, and a religious fanatic will also say his religion is his life.

Quote:
and a parting fun fact... something for you to consider:
dolphins and bonobo apes are the only animals besides humans that have sex for fun and other reasons other than procreation... both are among the top 10 of intelligent lifeforms on our planet...
Not sure what that's supposed to represent but actual studies have shown that our brains are very different to any animal, and in fact, we share many traits -- interesting since we have a completely different brain. It's like using a completely different material for computers (not sillicon, for example) but having similar traits to a sillicon-based computer.


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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


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posted February 04, 2009 06:22 PM

*rolls eyes and yawns*

your post is so full of holes its almost pornographic...

i will edit a proper response after i get some rest, cause right now i may go with my knee-jerk reaction of "you need to get laid"
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted February 04, 2009 07:09 PM

Quote:
your post is so full of holes its almost pornographic...

i will edit a proper response after i get some rest, cause right now i may go with my knee-jerk reaction of "you need to get laid"
You know, self-projection doesn't work as an argument

By the way, if you think legalizing drugs is ok (and may be), then let's go onto alcohol. Sure, since it is legal, there is absolutely no violence, no crimes because of it, none whatsoever... (sarcasm btw, in case you don't figure it out)

It's way easier for alcohol, because somehow I doubt you would say that alcohol does not shut down your brain (after all, you say stuff or do stuff that you would not do if you had full control over your brain/rationality). (note: this is more related to the legalizing-drugs issue, not necessarily the sex=drugs)
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted February 04, 2009 07:42 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:46, 04 Feb 2009.

who said about violence? And what does it have to do with legalize/not legalize dilemma?

Doesn't matter whether the stuff is legal or not. A drunk person may be aggressive, junkie too.. but wait, if he wants to, he will get drunk/high, no matter whether the stuff is legal or not.

And US has already shown us what prohibition ends with. Not only the people did not drink less, but also, gangs rose to power.

Notice how quickly they dissolved after the prohibition ended and tell me, why would it be different with drugs?

Wouldn't it finish a lot of druglords? Not all mb, the stuff is too advanced, too complex after all those years. But the lesser ones would die like fish without water.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 04, 2009 08:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:
1) I want him to tell us what EXACTLY is actually the "bad" thing about "drugs" as a whole and WHY.
Well that is a matter of debate. I would not argue, as long as people don't call me "how can you compare these two?". I have a problem (as in, arguing) mostly with people who claim sex is "different" or "better" or has a "higher purpose" or whatever other nonsense. (sex for pleasure mind you, not procreation).[/quote

Quote:
2) I want him to explain his opinion that sex is done (when not done for reproduction) exclusively "for pleasure": what makes him think so or how does he define "pleasure"?
Pleasure is the feeling that you experience. However it is distinct from other forms because it attempts to control your brain.


For a drug you need only yourself and the drug, for sex you need another person. Sex is basically a communicational thing. What you mistake it with is what porn sells as sex which is not the same thing. THAT is a main difference. Sex is a form of communication between 2 or more persons.
You may compare it with making music together, let's say a guitar and a piano, and they improvise together on a theme. "The brain" is only useful so much for that. A lot more important is to feel into the rhythm, the melody, the mood, which is not done by what we would call the brain.
Now, I can't imagine anyone having to say something bad about making music with someone else or that is was the same thing than using drugs. So why would it be one with sex when it's basically the same thing?

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DagothGares
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posted February 04, 2009 08:11 PM

Quote:
Now suppose you're not asexual, but you want to have children as well. Does mind-control help? Not at all, you would do it otherwise as well. But these aren't the only cases and are in fact the rare occurences.
So sex outof love is impossible? Owkay... You lost me...


And alcohol doesn't shut odnw your brain, it liberates it, actually...
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Doomforge
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posted February 04, 2009 09:06 PM

well, I don't drink, but I guess it does give some sort of a relief, and drugs too.

Well, I hope so, otherwise my last resort plan will fail too
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TheDeath
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posted February 04, 2009 09:36 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 21:41, 04 Feb 2009.

Quote:
Doesn't matter whether the stuff is legal or not. A drunk person may be aggressive, junkie too.. but wait, if he wants to, he will get drunk/high, no matter whether the stuff is legal or not.
And? My point was a counter to the argument "legalize drugs, it'll end all drug-related crime!" which is false.
Also, if it's illegal, just because a few might still get it doesn't mean that everyone would be able to get it if he wants it. It's not whether someone gets it anyway, it's HOW MANY.

Quote:
You may compare it with making music together, let's say a guitar and a piano, and they improvise together on a theme. "The brain" is only useful so much for that. A lot more important is to feel into the rhythm, the melody, the mood, which is not done by what we would call the brain.
Yes that is "made up" (I mean the 'musical ears' metaphor) by the right-hemisphere of the brain (deals with art) while the left deals with reason. Of course "musical ear" is a metaphor because actually it refers to the brain.

Quote:
Now, I can't imagine anyone having to say something bad about making music with someone else or that is was the same thing than using drugs. So why would it be one with sex when it's basically the same thing?
Well the difference is music isn't 'pleasure' though, because it is a brain thing (well also an 'ear' thing): the sensory goes to the brain directly (converted obviously), and then it's mostly brain activity. Unlike pleasure, which is by definition, something that your brain is forced to feel (by whatever substances). If it weren't, you wouldn't need those substances in the first place: nature could have designed our brains to automatically do that, but the problem is that it conflicts usually with the consciousness.


@for the alcohol 'relief' thing: that's what you FEEL: you are relieved because your brain is 'shut down' (not TOTALLY again!), so you don't use it. You feel relieved without thinking, without worries (those are in the brain) and whatever else (of course this assumes 100% shut down which is impossible, unless you pass out totally). Of course when I say brain I'm actually talking about consciousness.

Hey, to make the shark move to east, we have to make him feel motivated Cause otherwise, he knows there's nothing there, why would he go? (you need "override switch")


Now back to that, say you were deprived of all those substances, and you would notice that you would feel absolutely no pleasure anymore from sex. So what now? It means your brain is fully conscious and this is how being fully conscious feels -- aka can analyze with reason. This has been proven, by analyzing asexuals. You would notice, there's no reason in sex, beside pointless energy waste, unless you want to have children. As a pleasure goal, it is completely unoptimized for that.

Allow me an analogy: it's like clinging to use an 8086 processor and being stubborn not wanting to change it to a Core 2 Quad which does the job much more efficiently

Because if pleasure is the ultimate goal here, use EEE. Although I discourage it since I prefer you to use reason and feel 'happy' with reason than with shutting it down (the consciousness).
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Doomforge
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posted February 04, 2009 09:38 PM

Quote:
And? My point was a counter to the argument "legalize drugs, it'll end all drug-related crime!" which is false.


Whose argument it was? definitely not mine.
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Binabik
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posted February 04, 2009 11:04 PM


I'll start at the beginning with some semi-random quotes.

Quote:
First, the pleasure of sex is a medium-length period of mild pleasure, and a very short period of high pleasure.

Drugs, the stronger at least, offer a long period of mid-to-high pleasure, and a long period of fail.


Huh? You can't categorize either sex or drugs that way. It depends on the sex and the drugs. Both sex and drugs can be the exact opposite of what you stated. And drugs and sex can either one last anywhere from a few minutes to several hours (maybe even days). Also, the two together can be quite different than either one by itself.

Another big problem throughout this discussion is the definition of "pleasure". But I guess for lack of a better word "pleasure" suits the purpose of the discussion if a very broad definition is used. For example there is no way to really compare purely physical sensations with sensations "in the head".

Also, what one person finds pleasurable, another might find unpleasurable....and a drug or sex can have both at the same time.


Quote:
Yes, but I frankly couldn't care less about my body. It's your brain that will last longest


Huh? Not necessarily. Your brain IS part of your body after all, and therefore it will age. The rate at which either one ages is dependant on many factors.

OK this is purely my opinion, but I really believe that the use of drugs when younger can cause premature signs of aging of the mind. Why do I think that? Simply because it makes logical sense to me.....bottom line is that drugs are toxins, especially to the brain, and toxins adversely affect our health, and our health affects how we age.

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But if people want to take drugs they can get them and making them illegal doesn't prevent that.


It doesn't prevent it, but it can dramatically affect the availability and therefore the use of drugs.

Quote:
Futile, because everybody who wants to take drugs, does it anyway.


Not true. They won't do drugs (as much) if they can't get them. No matter how many times people claim they can just run down to the corner and buy any drug they want, that's simply not the case. The availability of illegal drugs can vary a LOT depending on many factors. I've never once known a drug dealer who always had a steady supply ( Although I've known a couple who came close, like maybe 80-90% of the time, but that doesn't supply many people. And that's only pot, the availability of other drugs would likely be MUCH lower ).

Quote:
The other pro's are that the money goes to the government and to helping the community


I quoted TA, but this is a very common argument. This argument doesn't hold water in my opinion. The same justification can be made for almost any illegal activity. Tax revenues can be a positive side affect, but should not be used to justify legalizing something in the first place. Legalization should stand on it's own merits.

Quote:
But I think that it can't be good to take pill or get wasted when you're still growing, should at least wait until you're 18 before people start punishing their brain


I agree with this, except the age should be more like 25, preferably 30.


OK, I'm tired of writing. But I'll make a final statement and maybe give my arguments for it later if I feel like it. Bottom line is that I think that the issue of legalization MIGHT be somewhat cultural based. I think different cultures will react differently to legalization. So the question becomes "is it enough difference to justify legalization is some places, but not others?". Having said that, in the US (and probably other places) I am COMPLETELY against legalizing any drugs including pot. As is the case with most social/political issues, idealism and reality are often at odds with each other.

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mvassilev
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posted February 04, 2009 11:49 PM

Doomforge:
I don't know about the lengths - I've heard the high from drugs isn't really that long. Although it depends on the drug, of course.

And there's a mistake in your graph - in the sex portion. The periods in between sex should not decrease in pleasure. It's just the peaks that should decrease (and even not necessarily so!).

But I agree, a lot of drugs should be legalized.

Dagoth:
Getting out of bed is a risk. Should it be illegal to get out of bed?

william:
Quote:
You say drugs suck, but then say that you're all for legalising weed, which is also a drug.
I think WoW sucks, but I'm not for making it illegal. I'm not going to impose my preferences upon others.

TheDeath:
Quote:
I have a problem (as in, arguing) mostly with people who claim sex is "different" or "better" or has a "higher purpose" or whatever other nonsense.
It could be a celebration of the highest human values.

Quote:
Because it needs a "shut down the conscious/logical reasoning" function in order for you to want it.
You have it backwards. The conscious/logical reasoning bit is there for you to be better able to obtain pleasure.

And your whole bit about mind control is inaccurate. If you look at it that way, everything is mind-controlled. Why do you get out of bed? Mind control. Why do you get on your computer? Mind control. Why do you sleep? Mind control. Why do you eat? Mind control.

Quote:
It will increase crime for those who cannot afford them but they will want it because of addiction (and which wouldn't even have drugs otherwise).
And this is different from them being illegal because...

Quote:
sex's pleasure is WITHIN YOU, it is only in YOUR mind, or shall I say, shut-down conscious mind
Yes, but you're not going to get pleasure from sex unless you have stimulation from outside sources.

Quote:
If pleasure is the ultimate goal here, use EEE
Perhaps it's not just pleasure, but specific forms of pleasure.
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TheDeath
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posted February 05, 2009 01:01 AM
Edited by TheDeath at 01:02, 05 Feb 2009.

Quote:
You have it backwards. The conscious/logical reasoning bit is there for you to be better able to obtain pleasure.

And your whole bit about mind control is inaccurate. If you look at it that way, everything is mind-controlled. Why do you get out of bed? Mind control. Why do you get on your computer? Mind control. Why do you sleep? Mind control. Why do you eat? Mind control.
Lol what?
Do you even read what I write? You know cause I really had to waste a lot of time both writing it, and reading all sorts of sources (no, not today, but over the course of years obviously) and you take it completely wrong. What has the computer got to do with any of this, or getting out of bed? (how many substances are released that attempt to "control" or "shut down" your brain for that?)

This is for one of the last time I'm going to repeat this: there is a difference between a MENTAL product (such as, feelings like loneliness, joy, or just optimism, etc...) and a BODY product -- that's why those substances exist in the first place and are not a mental product, to control your conscious brain (or shut it down).


Eating (as in, the feeling of STARVING) is indeed a form of mind control though. It doesn't mean you shouldn't eat to survive but it does control your self. Well, you CAN pull it off obviously with your will if you want -- but that's rationality for you.

Obviously, procreation, if you WANT that, is 100% rational, I don't argue there (that's what nature wants). You can't compare sex to eating though -- procreation to eating is better since both what nature wants and designed you for (if you go by that route obviously, you can always pull it off with your reason if you want). Like they said, having sex without procreation is like eating food and vomiting it instantly -- or putting your food, chewing it, and then throwing it instead of swallowing it (which I am also saying it is irrational by all margings, see? it all links to a common definition).

Quote:
And this is different from them being illegal because...
Because otherwise the average joe won't be able to afford it, since it's illegal? (therefore less junkies --> less drug-related crimes)

Quote:
Yes, but you're not going to get pleasure from sex unless you have stimulation from outside sources.
EEE is an external source. And no, they don't "come from external sources", they come from your sensory sources. IF you manipulate what those transmit to the brain (like with EEE), you get the same feeling.
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mvassilev
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posted February 05, 2009 01:35 AM

Quote:
This is for one of the last time I'm going to repeat this: there is a difference between a MENTAL product (such as, feelings like loneliness, joy, or just optimism, etc...) and a BODY product -- that's why those substances exist in the first place and are not a mental product, to control your conscious brain (or shut it down).
No, there isn't. The difference between the mind and the body is arbitrary.

And reason exists so that humans can seek pleasure better. It is a tool - a means, not an end.

Quote:
Because otherwise the average joe won't be able to afford it, since it's illegal? (therefore less junkies --> less drug-related crimes)
I thought you were talking about the average joe not being able to afford it when it's legal.

As for EEE, no.
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TheDeath
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posted February 05, 2009 02:27 AM

Quote:
No, there isn't. The difference between the mind and the body is arbitrary.
I just explained it and you start with stupid claims like this? (stupid because it completely ignores whatever I posted).

One is a mental-state, aka brain-state, aka stuff that comes from your brain, aka I do not know how to explain this more straightforward than this. The other (pleasure) is a body-state, substances that get IN YOUR BRAIN (whatever, metaphorically), to attempt to control it. What do you think those substances do? Or sensors? (that, similarly, attempt to control it, not the "vision" sensors, like the eyes or ears or whatever).

WTF man, it's always like this when talking to you -- you always somehow reset to "ground zero" in a discussion and we're going in circles.

Quote:
And reason exists so that humans can seek pleasure better. It is a tool - a means, not an end.
See above. Pleasure is when your reason does not "work" as expected, or you are not fully conscious. (take alcohol, I'm sure many people are familiar with it, for example). Do you want to end up like the mind-controlled shark? I thought we were supposed to evolve...

Quote:
I thought you were talking about the average joe not being able to afford it when it's legal.
He will, at first, but later not -- after he becomes a junkie for example, he may lose his job. Or whatever else. Simply put, he'll not be able to afford it continuously.

Quote:
As for EEE, no.
That site talks about mental states (i.e happiness), not pleasure (at least how I defined it, see above, it's 100% scientific), which is a body-state.

By the way, did you watch the Matrix? Yeah, I suppose that world was really "normal" by any standard... especially in pleasure. EEE works similarly.
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