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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [project] Dual Hero Classes
Thread: [project] Dual Hero Classes This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2009 08:57 PM
Edited by SimonaK at 21:27, 07 Mar 2009.

I'm seeing all differences in ToK_Game.exe 1.2

Here:

it is a NCF based

folder for .zip and .h5u becomes ToKMODs2 instead of UserMODs

splash picture is ToKLoad2.bmp instead of splash2.bmp

offset 35910D is « 09 » instead of « 08 »  -- probably the ninth faction

offset 446CA1 is « 61 » instead of « 62 »  -- a new artifact







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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted March 07, 2009 09:07 PM

I will make a blind attempt to try and illustrate the process for adding new heroes, based on my limited knowledge:

Advenced requirements
Get edited .exe file with new bytes for a hero class
Get these bytes' "type" (for example, in types.xml, Knights are set as ID=2, type=7a0a348d - a type seems to be an 8 character sequence which is unique to every byte.)

Note: ID in types.xml does not seem to determine scripting IDs.

Connect the bytes to an ID using the data.pak/Types.xml file.
Give the new class a name, i.e. Planeswalker, also in Types.xml.


Game Mechanics
You defined the class name in types.xml, now you must use that name again by creating a new entry for your class in GameMechanics/RefTables/HeroClass.xdb.
Create a skillwheel for your class here, as well.

In-game name: define this in HeroClass.xdb, by directing the NameFileRef path to a text file.  Generally these are placed in texts.pak/HeroClass/.


Defining Heroes
You must create brand new heroes for your new class (you can also replace existing ones, but this process doesn't affect existing classes).  A How-To guide for this is already explained somewhere on HC by VokialBG, just use your new class's ID (<Class>HERO_CLASS_PLANESWALKER</Class> for example).
Class specialties are actually defined by each hero in data.pak\MapObjects\, not by the class itself - we gave all of our Planeswalkers Irresistable Magic, as you cannot create new skills.


Graphics
Generally this is also defined by each hero and not the class itself, so configure this as you would any other hero (data.pak\MapObjects\(faction)\(hero), edit Model, AnimSet and HeroCharacter properties.


I hope Kronos will be able to correct me on what's wrong here, this is simply a very rough guide, some of which in the Advanced requirements section is probably incorrect.  It's just how I remember we did it, though that was months and months ago.

Quote:
I'm seeing differences in ToK_Game.exe

it is not a NCF based

folder for .zip and .h5u becomes ToKMODs2 instead of UserMODs

splash picture is ToKLoad2.bmp instead of splash2.bmp


Yes, this is because ToK preceded the NCF project by months, actually it and the Conflux project were the inspiration for NCFs since Kronos, Neckie and Crazy Pill were the first to successfully program new creatures into Heroes V (Relentless' Magma Elemental was the first ever NCF creature).  

The different splash screen is there because Kronos did not want to permenently overwrite the original splash screen in case of uninstallation - he redirected the modded game to the new (unfinished) splash.

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SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2009 09:14 PM
Edited by SimonaK at 21:18, 07 Mar 2009.

Quote:

Yes, this is because ToK preceded the NCF project by months,



the word « not » has been too quickly for nothing.

you accord me I'm able to recognize a NCF based .exe

anyway, thanks to you guys





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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted March 07, 2009 09:27 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Yes, this is because ToK preceded the NCF project by months,


the word « not » has been too quickly for nothing.


I can't tell whether that's an attempt at wit, a language barrier or both (as usual... ) but if you're disagreeing, I'll source my statements here:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=20987&pagenumber=2
posted October 23, 2007

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=24698
posted December 30, 2007

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SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2009 10:03 PM
Edited by SimonaK at 22:13, 07 Mar 2009.

Thank Cepheus, I have learned a lot of very interesting things today

Now, I know how to create a faction or a dual hero classes mod.

no doubt, Kronos and other ones are all great modder.




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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted March 07, 2009 10:15 PM

No problem, but again, you might want to wait for Kronos to arrive before trying my method, since it's incomplete.

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SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2009 10:29 PM

Yes.

btw, for now, I have not a real intention to begin this kind of mod.

I find just very interesting to know how to do it

Sure, I will keep these precious infos.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 07, 2009 11:34 PM

While Cepheus was busy writing this nice guide (I didn't know), I went myself through another trial and error process and found out the types.xml was indeed the last problem that needed to be tackled.
In other words:

I DID IT!!! I HAVE CREATED 16 WORKING CLASSES!!!

At this moment they are basically just copies of other classes with different names, but i have already tested they can be altered indepently. When I change for example the probability to learn attack in the heroclass.xdb to 70%, the class is really learning attack most of the time. All I can say now is: Kronos1000, thanks for your brilliant discoveries. This is a great day for HOMM fans!

The next coming days I will think about what I want to do with these discoveries. With every new idea that comes to my mind I realize the amount of work that needs to be done is huge. Even if I take in mind models, skillwheels etc can be created by others, the remaining core part is a massive job. So I haven't decided I will finish another huge mod, and I probably won't until I have at least finished around 60% of it.


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SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 08, 2009 12:18 AM
Edited by SimonaK at 01:55, 08 Mar 2009.



also why not a unique class per hero by creating over of 64 classes


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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
posted March 08, 2009 09:19 AM

@SimonK: You are mainly right exept that "offset 35910D is « 09 » instead of « 08 »" is for the Hero class not the faction, I didn't add the faction on purpose, because using that would kill all the hard coded building effects so I just created a new shared file using TOWN_DUNGEON.

@Cepheus: Wow that's a great guide, only you have to edit the Skills.xdb as well which is obviously the most work, for you have to create an entire skillwheel there.

@magnomagus: You're welcome, great to hear you got it working. It is indeed a lot of work, but I could help if you need me to.

Oh and this also proves that no one really tried my precious Planeswalker....
____________
Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 08, 2009 09:46 AM

Wow guys, your work is really amazing.

This seems to be moving towards something that can indeed be done.

We need to find a final consensus for names of classes based on discussions prior (in the end, I won't be adamant on my stands, as long as we get it done) as well as on skins.

I will upload my suggestions for major skill progression soon. I have most of them done, but I haven't been much at my other computer in the last week. And then we can discuss potential perk distributions.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 08, 2009 01:12 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 13:14, 08 Mar 2009.

Quote:
Wow that's a great guide, only you have to edit the Skills.xdb as well which is obviously the most work, for you have to create an entire skillwheel there.


Yes and after thinking a bit further there is actually much more:

-the AI needs to do the right skillchoices for 16 classes, so a huge amount of skill values need to be fine tuned.
-at least 8 x 12 Heroes need to be prepared  and have an appropriate specialization for their class + starting skills. This is so much work that if I had not already created the huge ashan pack in the past (which obviously saves me a lot), I would probably not even considered working on this mod at this moment at all.

Currently I have been breaking my mind over the problem the new classes also need to have the same unique skills. This means the second dungeon class for example needs to be full spellpower no matter what. In case of the other classes it is not as worse as it is for dungeon and stronghold but it applies to all classes for a certain extend. Therefore I think the goal of the mod should be: creating classes that provide large variation and exciting new gameplay without the need to be a full might/magic split up.
Another important goal should be: creating classes that fit in the design of the world of ashan and it's characters. Striving to make a H3 clone is in my opinion not a very good idea.

Taking these goals in mind I have created some ideas I would like to hear your opinions about.

For the dungeon faction we could create a warlock and a witch class. The warlocks are all males and the witches are all females. The males are more orientated towards destructive magic, sorcery and attack, while the females are more orientated towards summoning magic, knowledge and defense. The witch class will break the boring 'all destructive magic' gameplay and provide a much different experience with dungeon. The idea for having a male/female class split up is of course derived from the most beloved old h3 fortress faction. It is not my intention to do this with all factions.

For the haven faction we could create a knight and a renegade knight class. The knights are pretty much like they are now, while the renegades are the exact opposites, they are much more aggressive and use attack and dark magic instead of defense and light magic. This way every class can also have his favoured creature line-up. I don't have to explain which one that will be for renegades . It is however not my intention to 'fix' the creature line-up's if it was even possible.

In the discussion, please don't fall too much over names or exact %, these things can be altered by anyone in 2 minutes work. The nature of the classes is much more important at this stage. For the secondary skills I'm currently investigating further the system I discussed with Kronos in the old might and magic classes thread (a year ago). I remember the core idea was to let all classes have the standard perks and split up all the special perks in might and magic oriented perks. It is very easy to get agreement on what is might and what is magic oriented (Tremors vs triple ballista, you tell me huh?)
I have read through Lexxans post but his ideas were obviously not created from a modder's standpoint. I need to be looking at an effective and logical way to alter the skillwheels without falling into endless paperwork to design the classes from scratch. I think this is an opportunity to clean up the messy nival skillwheels, that constantly force you to have a skillwheel on your desk while playing.
If the most powerful skills are always in the inner circle and 'flaming arrows always comes after archery' the need for extensive documentation while playing may become less important.

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SimonaK
SimonaK


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 08, 2009 05:41 PM
Edited by SimonaK at 18:41, 08 Mar 2009.

Quote:
You are mainly right exept that "offset 35910D is « 09 » instead of « 08 »" is for the Hero class not the faction, I didn't add the faction on purpose, because using that would kill all the hard coded building effects so I just created a new shared file using TOWN_DUNGEON.



Right. There is a big diff between class and town type.

but Nexus is a new faction or not? Why to name it a faction if in fact it's just a class.

That could be interessting to have a real ninth faction and more, so new TOWN_TYPE ids as well.

I know that Nexus creatures are typed TOWN_SPECIAL and I always thought this ID is not really use.

Why do you use this ID?

obviously there is not castle for.

ooh You have also added a new artifact, I'm curious to know its proprieties in the game


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 10, 2009 12:51 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:55, 10 Mar 2009.

Since this thread is not exactly swarming with comments, I decided to dig in the history of the forum to get an idea about what classes people like to see. After browsing the Alter of Wishes for some hours it was pretty obvious the h3 classes are most popular. After further investigating the possibilities I can say the following classes are certainly possible:

-Druid renamed to Warden (Warden is often mentioned as a good rename)The warden can focus on spellpower, destructive magic and defense, while the ranger can focus more on attack then the original ranger. Both classes should be able to learn lightmagic, although the ranger is truly weaker with any magic.

-Death knight (Since necromancy is not SP or K dependant this class can become really mighty) The death knight can have a fair chance to learn dark magic, but spellpower dependant summoning is not an viable option for him.


-Heretic or Sorcerer? (Focus on destructive magic/fire vs Demon Lord focused more on might then the original demon lord. The demon lord can have a fair chance to learn dark magic, but spellpower dependant destructive is not an viable option for him.

-Alchemist, because knowledge=might for academy, the alchemist can focus more on knowledge(45%)+light and dark magic+defense(30%)+war machines while the wizard can focus more on spellpower then the original wizard (=45%SP+30%K instead of 30%SP and 45%K). The wizard will focus more on summoning and destructive and be totally dumb with might.

Here are some ideas for dungeon and fortress:

-The fortress faction can be divided in a class (warlord,runewarrior?) heavily focused on might and war machines, only light magic is optional. The Runemage will be even more focused on spellpower and destructive then it is now.

-Dungeon is still puzzling, independent from the question what the names will be I think one class should focus heavily on attack+spellpower (only destructive) like the current warlock while the other should focus on spellpower (destructive and summoning), slightly more knowledge, some defense and very weak attack. The following name combinations all have there problems:

Witch+Warlock, Great for models but maybe 2x too much magic

Witch+Assassin, Models, lore and variation perfection, but too much interference with creature names. Maybe rename the creatures. Still my current favourite

Overlord+Warlock, Model problems: Dividing males and females over 2 classes, realag and generic model look too much the same. Overlord is an impopular name unlike the other h3 classes.

The following classes are heavily problematic:

-Cleric, no models, no portraits, boring gameplay (more of the same defense and light magic)

-Battlemage, completely impossible

Suggested Alternatives:

-Renegade, focus on dark magic + attack, maybe make destructive an option+ chances to learn sorcery, enlightment (but not too strong, attack is main focus). The Knight can stay almost as it is defense+light magic, war machines etc and be the perfect opposite.

-Shaman, focus on shatter+enlightment, shouting and defense. There can be 4 female shamans using the kujin model, every shaman focuses on shattering one of the four magic schools (one for every school). There can be 8 male Barbarians (the barbarian model sucked for woman anyway).

I'm currently working on an excel sheet to create a full development plan for the mod. In the mean time: keep posting, this thread is a little death for such an interesting project.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

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Willow
Willow


Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
posted March 10, 2009 01:04 PM

This is really fascinating! I haven't had an opportunity to try this out yet, but hopefully soon I'll try and test and see if I can get it to work. Excellent work, guys. Thank you.

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Malgore
Malgore


Adventuring Hero
posted March 10, 2009 01:28 PM
Edited by Malgore at 13:29, 10 Mar 2009.

I was just passing by and decided to suggest following.

1. Why not to use Ylaya skin for second Dungeon hero?

2. Here some name variations: Demoniac or Demonologist or Occultist for Inferno; Shadowlord or Dominator for Dungeon; Warsmith or Forgelord for Fortress.

Just some random thoughts.

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Willow
Willow


Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
posted March 10, 2009 03:19 PM
Edited by Willow at 15:21, 10 Mar 2009.

Here are some suggestions for the might/magic classes that I considered for a mod that I was working on myself. (Some of the suggestions are similar to what has been proposed.) These are for Secondary Skills, not certain about Primary Skills yet.


Academy: Artificer & Wizard

Artificer (or Alchemist, if you prefer) is focused on War Machines & Light, while Wizard is focused on Sorcery & Enlightenment.

Haven: Knight & Paladin

Knight is focused on Defense & Attack, while Paladin is focused on Leadership & Light.

Sylvan: Ranger & Warden

Ranger is focused on Logistics & Luck, while Warden is focused on Defense & Enlightenment.

Fortress: Rune Warrior & Rune Mage

Rune Warrior is focused on Defense & War Machines, while Rune Mage is focused on Destructive & Light.

Stronghold: Barbarian & Shaman

Barbarian is focused on Attack & Leadership, while Shaman is focused Defense & Logistics.

Dungeon: Warlock & Witch

Warlock is focused on Attack & Destructive, while Witch is focused on Sorcery & Summoning.

Necropolis: Reaper & Necromancer

Reaper is focused on Defense & Sorcery, while Necromancer is focused on Dark & Summoning.

Inferno: Demon Lord & Heretic

Demon Lord is focused on Attack & War Machines, while Heretic is focused on Destructive & Logistics


I've noticed across the threads that some have said they prefer single-name hero classes and to not have heroes have the same class name as some creatures, but I think trying too hard to come up with unique names creates unnecessary effort and can end up with odd-sounding class names.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 10, 2009 04:14 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:17, 10 Mar 2009.

As promised, here is my suggestion to distribution of skill priorities on alternative classes.

Columns represent 15 % / 10 % / 8 % / 2 %.

A few re-distributions are planned in current classes so that all factions have 2 skills at 15 %, 2 at 10 %, 4 at 8 % and 4 at 2 % (this involves changing Necromancy back to 10 % (doesn't make a difference, as all Necromancers have Necromancy, duh) and also changing a couple of Ranger skills (Sorcery > 2 %, Attack > 8 %). Also might make slight changes to other classes (perhaps downing Warlock a bit in Attack and upping him in Sorcery?). Anyway ... for the alternative classes:



Note: For Battlemage, Magic classes = Shatter magic.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted March 10, 2009 04:56 PM

I completely disagree with the Battle Mage:

Four Shatters, yet low chances of getting Leadership and Attack?? (I can live with WM and Logistics). If they have Low attack values, and NO Magic (sometimes even Shatters cannot counter powerfull Magic) makes them EXTREMELY vulnerable. I suggest you either allow them to learn Magic (or maybe even BOTH Shatters and Magic Schools at 4%) OR increase the values for Leadership and Attack forthwith. Otherwise, I fear they'll fail. More than often.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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Willow
Willow


Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
posted March 10, 2009 05:10 PM

Is it possible to allow Stronghold heroes to learn spells? I know they learn the Magic skills, but not sure about the spells.

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