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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2009 12:35 PM |
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I like the idea of Shatter Skills for (some (might)) classes. We can discuss that later also.
My version 2.0 is practically ready. To give you a taste of what it includes, I'll upload one skill here and add comments. Rest will come later.
Basic principles
 Each skill has 4 basic perks, each with 1 or 2 advanced perks.
There are no perks to class skills - all racial perks are moved to common skills! Some are free for all (Retaliation Strike, Mark Of The Wizard, Imbue Arrow) while others are only for relevant race still (Consume Artifact, Eternal Servitude, Fine Rune, etc.).
Ultimate Perks are now Synergy skills that are available for all (with exception of Urgash' Call, which is still Inferno only).
Technical challenge Racial Skills are moved from the normal skill screen to occupy the 4 slots previously reserved for Racial perks. This allows Hero to now learn 6 skills besides the racial skill instead of previous 5.
Example: Attack
There are four branches:
- Battle Frenzy - Master Of Fire / Nature's Wrath (Sylvan only) / Hellfire (Inferno only) - Fiery Wrath
- Archery - Tripple Ballista / Rain Of Arrows (Sylvan only) - Flaming Arrows
- Tactics - Power Of Speed - Offensive Formation
- Excruciating Strike - Mark Of The Damned - Stunning Blow
Notice how nicely the skills add up in themes: Adding damage (first branch), ranged attacks (second branch), tactical elements (third branch), and hero direct attack (fourth branch).
Will post remaining skills later.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 20, 2009 04:49 PM |
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Quote:
Technical challenge Racial Skills are moved from the normal skill screen to occupy the 4 slots previously reserved for Racial perks. This allows Hero to now learn 6 skills besides the racial skill instead of previous 5.
Technical challenge or Technical impossibility? What exactly do you mean by racial skills? The game treats all skills equal, so technically you can make attack a racial skill and counterstrike a normal skill. A hero learns a maximum of 6 skills total (hard-coded in exe), no matter what they are. I could make a knight learning 6 racials, but never make it learn 7 normal skills.
I think I have another solution for making more 'standard perks' available. We can make two different editions of enlightment (This can only be done with enlightment because it has 2 ID's.
We can name them for example 'battle lore'and 'arcane lore'. Battle lore can only be learned by might classes while Arcane lore can only be learned by magic classes. Arcane lore is similar to what enlightment is now, while battle lore can look like this:
Combat (based on stunning blow) -> Blocking (based on resistance) -> Fighting Champion (based on barbarian-dark revelation)
Warmaster (based on barbarian-intelligence) -> Bodybuilding (based on Stamina) -> Trainer (based on barbarian-mentoring)
Warcry Learning -> Power of Blood
Thanks to imba specializations I have many great icons available for these skills. Now we have some extra space in attack and defense available and we have created more variation.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2009 07:20 PM |
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Quote:
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Technical challenge Racial Skills are moved from the normal skill screen to occupy the 4 slots previously reserved for Racial perks. This allows Hero to now learn 6 skills besides the racial skill instead of previous 5.
Technical challenge or Technical impossibility? What exactly do you mean by racial skills? The game treats all skills equal, so technically you can make attack a racial skill and counterstrike a normal skill. A hero learns a maximum of 6 skills total (hard-coded in exe), no matter what they are. I could make a knight learning 6 racials, but never make it learn 7 normal skills.
Are you sure the number of skills are hardcorded? And even if they are, are we sure we cannot change that?
What I ment about moving the skill was simply to use the perk slots besides the hero specilization for the racial skill icons. This would make a free space in the skill page, which I was hoping was enough to learn another skill. Changing the content of the skill slots might be able if we can find the files that determine their content and change that.
Actually, there might even be a way to sneak around it. If we could define a perk as having no native skill and if we could change a skill to be a perk, we might simply change the "three" racial skills for each class to be perks, i.e. Basic Racial Skill = perk 1, Advanced Racial Skill = perk 2 and Expert Racial Skill = perk 3 (we can even mark Ultimate Racial Skill = perk 4 = ultimate perk for this class). I doubt it would work, but if it did, it would be a way to simply add the racial skills as perks in the racial perk slots, and the Hero would still learn 5 skills, as there is simply no racial skill now.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2009 08:11 PM |
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Anyway, just to post my full skill suggestions with some comments.
Attack
Not too many surprises here - Fiery Wrath is now an Attack perk (while Cold Steel has moved to Destructive Magic). It requires Master Of Fire to learn. Rain Of Arrows is now a Sylvan-only Attack perk. Offensive Formation and Stunning Blow are common skills.
Defence
Barbarian Luck is now Barbarian Protection. Absolute Protection enters the defence tree but is still an ultimate perk (or synergy perk) which means that requirements are still a combination of three or four skills. Specific requirements are not determined yet, but could be (besides Defence) Light Magic > Eternal Light and Summoning Magic > Runic Armor, perhaps one more skill?
Leadership
Major changes in Leadership, in that Retribution, Retaliation Strike and Unstoppable Charge is now in this skill. I like pretty much how the skills are distributed - first path is about speeding up your units, second is about more about magic, thied is about making your army stronger and last is about hero direct attacks. Still there are a couple of odd ones out like Estates.
Luck
Themes are very strongly defined in the branches here. I moved Erratic Mana from Sorcery to Luck because it fits the randomnes of Luck, and goes as a good basic perk for Warlock's Luck. Nature's Luck enters as ultimate perk in the branch that focuses on army luck which makes excellent sense.
Logistics
Navigation is a dead branch. It could have been associated with Snatch, but I put Snatch with Pathfinding instead, as that is about movability. Warpath could have gone in this branch also, but would make it overpowered. Haunted Mines enters Logistics for Necromancer, otherwise few surprises.
War Machines
Not too many things to add here. I like how Runic War Machines and Remote Control forms a branch independant of the specific machine types.
Light Magic
A number of racial perks enter here - Benediction is now a common perk, as is Guardian Angel (though it could be Haven only still); Consume Artifact, Dead Eye Shot and Refresh Rune are race specific perks here also.
Notice change in Seal Of Light: Since your greatest problem as Light user is going to be a Dark Magic user, I thought it more natural that Seal Of Light actually doubles mana cost of Dark Spells rather than Light Spells. This would mean swapping Seal Of Light and Seal Of Darkness, hence the slight modification in icon (the book is Dark Magic, not Light Magic as now).
Dark Magic
Mark Of The Necromancer is back as Dark Magic perk, and Fallen Knight (Pariah), Banshee Howl and Howl Of Terror are now also common perks. Howl Of Terror is still an ultimate perk.
Destructive Magic
Imbue Arrow and Elemental Vision enters as common perks, Rage Of The Elements is still ultimate perk. Not too sure of Dark Ritual, and also an unresolved end with Searing Fires and Instant Gating, which could replace Cold Death and Cold Steal for Inferno?
Summoning Magic
Not too many interesting Summoning perks are there? I placed Eternal Servitude here following Master Of Life, which seemed fitting.
Enlightenent
Not too many surprises here, but I moved Magic Insight here from Sorcery, and then added Arcane Omniscience as an ultimate perk here. Stamina could go in here, but there are no empty slots, it could go to another skill also.
Sorcery
Sorcery was a real puzzle to solve - in the beginning, I had a severy shortage of perks, and in the end, I ended up with an overflow. Consume Corpse and Soulfire form one branch with Mana Regeneration, while Empower Spells comes from Arcane Training and Excellence. Magic Mirror (could also go to Luck) and Mark Of The Wizard end up here, and finally Distract, Mana Burst and Counterspell form the last branch.
Greater Rune and Boneward needs somewhere to be (perhaps Mark Of The Wizard should remain Wizard only?).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 20, 2009 10:52 PM |
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Actually, there might even be a way to sneak around it. If we could define a perk as having no native skill and if we could change a skill to be a perk, we might simply change the "three" racial skills for each class to be perks, i.e. Basic Racial Skill = perk 1, Advanced Racial Skill = perk 2 and Expert Racial Skill = perk 3 (we can even mark Ultimate Racial Skill = perk 4 = ultimate perk for this class). I doubt it would work, but if it did, it would be a way to simply add the racial skills as perks in the racial perk slots, and the Hero would still learn 5 skills, as there is simply no racial skill now.
A perk always has a native skill, if you want to stack racial skills this way (which is not even possible) it needs another base skill like attack. And even if all this was possible, it isn't attractive to me at at all. Why mess up the good parts of the system. Yes, retaliation strike can work for other factions but is it really needed to make the game better? In my opinion not. If we go for the shatter skills and maybe also my battle-enlightment idea we have plenty of spaces to fill, without breaking the racials. There are so many skills in your set up that only work for one faction, if you remove them you will have difficulties filling up 3x3.
Nice icon editing by the way, are you also able to edit them in game (dds files with transparant background)?
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 20, 2009 10:55 PM |
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How about moving Urgash's call and Boneward to summoning?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 21, 2009 11:01 AM |
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Summoning is not a preferred spell school from inferno
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 21, 2009 11:07 AM |
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A perk always has a native skill, if you want to stack racial skills this way (which is not even possible) it needs another base skill like attack.
Well, it might be that the game accepted HERO_SKILL_NONE, or whatever form the entries have. Just wondered if anybody ever tested that.
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And even if all this was possible, it isn't attractive to me at at all. Why mess up the good parts of the system. Yes, retaliation strike can work for other factions but is it really needed to make the game better? In my opinion not.
The reason to add certain racial skills and specifically the Ultimate Perks as common skills is mostly a balance issue. The current Ultimate Perks are blatantly unbalanced (Unstoppable Charge vs. Nature's Luck, duh?), and therefore I think it would be much more fair, and also more interesting, if all factions had the possibility to go for those skills. That's the idea behind the synergy system: Any faction can go for the synergy effect of Nature's Luck if they get the right skill combination.
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If we go for the shatter skills and maybe also my battle-enlightment idea we have plenty of spaces to fill, without breaking the racials. There are so many skills in your set up that only work for one faction, if you remove them you will have difficulties filling up 3x3.
I think the Shatter Skills can work, but I think it's a Dangerous path to walk. For Knight, for instance, Shatter Summoning and Shatter Destructive would probably be ok, because I don't think anybody would ever go Destructive or Summoning with that class - whereas Shatter Dark would be a bad idea, because Dark Magic is actually a quite viable path for Knight. Of course, there might be some point in reserving that for Cleric, so that Cleric has Dark and Knight has Shatter Dark ... hmmm ... yes, guess that could work, except we have to be carefull not to narrow down options too much.
In the same way, Light Magic is actually quite attractive for a Demon Lord. Forcing him to take Shatter Light instead would probably be more of a cut-back than an advantage. We have to be very careful there.
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Nice icon editing by the way, are you also able to edit them in game (dds files with transparant background)?
Thank you!  Some of them came out really nice didn't they? I have a program that can convert to .dds, but I'm not very familiar with them and transparant background and all that. I was hoping maybe the game would simply accept them as .gif, .jpg or something else.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 21, 2009 11:09 AM |
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A perk always has a native skill, if you want to stack racial skills this way (which is not even possible) it needs another base skill like attack.
Well, it might be that the game accepted HERO_SKILL_NONE, or whatever form the entries have. Just wondered if anybody ever tested that.
Quote:
And even if all this was possible, it isn't attractive to me at at all. Why mess up the good parts of the system. Yes, retaliation strike can work for other factions but is it really needed to make the game better? In my opinion not.
The reason to add certain racial skills and specifically the Ultimate Perks as common skills is mostly a balance issue. The current Ultimate Perks are blatantly unbalanced (Unstoppable Charge vs. Nature's Luck, duh?), and therefore I think it would be much more fair, and also more interesting, if all factions had the possibility to go for those skills. That's the idea behind the synergy system: Any faction can go for the synergy effect of Nature's Luck if they get the right skill combination.
Quote:
If we go for the shatter skills and maybe also my battle-enlightment idea we have plenty of spaces to fill, without breaking the racials. There are so many skills in your set up that only work for one faction, if you remove them you will have difficulties filling up 3x3.
I think the Shatter Skills can work, but I think it's a Dangerous path to walk. For Knight, for instance, Shatter Summoning and Shatter Destructive would probably be ok, because I don't think anybody would ever go Destructive or Summoning with that class - whereas Shatter Dark would be a bad idea, because Dark Magic is actually a quite viable path for Knight. Of course, there might be some point in reserving that for Cleric, so that Cleric has Dark and Knight has Shatter Dark ... hmmm ... yes, guess that could work, except we have to be carefull not to narrow down options too much.
In the same way, Light Magic is actually quite attractive for a Demon Lord. Forcing him to take Shatter Light instead would probably be more of a cut-back than an advantage. We have to be very careful there.
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Nice icon editing by the way, are you also able to edit them in game (dds files with transparant background)?
Thank you! Some of them came out really nice didn't they? I have a program that can convert to .dds, but I'm not very familiar with them and transparant background and all that. I was hoping maybe the game would simply accept them as .gif, .jpg or something else.
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How about moving Urgash's call and Boneward to summoning?
Boneward to Summoning might work, but I'm not sure I see a likely place. Like MagnoMagus say, Inferno doesn't take Summoning very often, so it might be a bad placing - probably, Logistics would be the most likely choice, so something like Pathfinding > Swift Gate > Urgash Call. Searing Flames could substitute for Secrets Of Destruction for Inferno.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 21, 2009 12:35 PM |
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Well, it might be that the game accepted HERO_SKILL_NONE, or whatever form the entries have. Just wondered if anybody ever tested that.
A perk without a native skill IS no longer a perk, that's the problem.
You can try to connect a perk to hero_skill_none, but if it works it only works 1x. So you can't make it work for 8 factions.
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The reason to add certain racial skills and specifically the Ultimate Perks as common skills is mostly a balance issue. The current Ultimate Perks are blatantly unbalanced (Unstoppable Charge vs. Nature's Luck, duh?), and therefore I think it would be much more fair, and also more interesting, if all factions had the possibility to go for those skills. That's the idea behind the synergy system: Any faction can go for the synergy effect of Nature's Luck if they get the right skill combination.
I agree about the balance issue, but if you make ultimates=>special perks players have to keep secondary skill slots open for a very long time to get them (until the meet all prerequisites). Therefore I want the ultimate to fall in the designated ultimate skill slot, this is only possible if the ultimate is connected to the racial skill (I have experimented with this in the past). A simple solution is to make unstoppable charge easier to get then nature luck.
Quote:
I think the Shatter Skills can work, but I think it's a Dangerous path to walk. For Knight, for instance, Shatter Summoning and Shatter Destructive would probably be ok, because I don't think anybody would ever go Destructive or Summoning with that class - whereas Shatter Dark would be a bad idea, because Dark Magic is actually a quite viable path for Knight. Of course, there might be some point in reserving that for Cleric, so that Cleric has Dark and Knight has Shatter Dark ... hmmm ... yes, guess that could work, except we have to be carefull not to narrow down options too much.
In the same way, Light Magic is actually quite attractive for a Demon Lord. Forcing him to take Shatter Light instead would probably be more of a cut-back than an advantage. We have to be very careful there.
EVERY skill, with the exception of spellpower hungry skills can be good for any class, I mean: mass endurance +12 defense for the whole army is good for all classes. This is why Nival designed power of speed and power of haste (originally those 2 skills were exclusively for the warlock). The essence of a RPG system is dividing qualities over classes, not like one class can have everything that works for him. I like a lore approach: Demon Lords follow Urgash and can't use Light magic, no matter it would benefit them.
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Thank you! Some of them came out really nice didn't they? I have a program that can convert to .dds, but I'm not very familiar with them and transparant background and all that. I was hoping maybe the game would simply accept them as .gif, .jpg or something else.
The game uses TGA, Kronos1000 wrote a guide about how to make backgrounds transparant, it's somewhere in the modders workshop. To make a icon useful in game it needs to be 128x128 TGA + the background needs to be fully transparant (not brown or black), then it must be converted to dds (can't remember exactly what type). Of course it's better to first extract the icons from the game instead of using AOH pictures as source.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 21, 2009 04:26 PM |
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Summoning is not a preferred spell school from inferno
That's right, but it would make a lot of sense since Gated Troops are sort-of summoned troops. Only a proposal, you know.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 21, 2009 04:29 PM |
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Thank you! Some of them came out really nice didn't they? I have a program that can convert to .dds, but I'm not very familiar with them and transparant background and all that. I was hoping maybe the game would simply accept them as .gif, .jpg or something else.
The game uses TGA, Kronos1000 wrote a guide about how to make backgrounds transparant, it's somewhere in the modders workshop. To make a icon useful in game it needs to be 128x128 TGA + the background needs to be fully transparant (not brown or black), then it must be converted to dds (can't remember exactly what type). Of course it's better to first extract the icons from the game instead of using AOH pictures as source.
If you guys need help with icons, give me a shout and I can do them for you (unless you prefer to do them yourself). I know how to edit TGA and DDS files and make them ready for in-game use.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 21, 2009 04:56 PM |
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Edited by Willow at 16:57, 21 Mar 2009.
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Oh, quick question... is it possible to use a perk (eg Mentor) as a hero specialisation? For example, let's say in Svea's XDB file you replace the ID for Stormcaller with the ID for Mentor so that her specialisation is then technically changed to Mentor. Would it still work in the game? Just wondering.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 21, 2009 05:34 PM |
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Oh, quick question... is it possible to use a perk (eg Mentor) as a hero specialisation? For example, let's say in Svea's XDB file you replace the ID for Stormcaller with the ID for Mentor so that her specialisation is then technically changed to Mentor. Would it still work in the game? Just wondering.
No, you can only give other specializations or completely remove a specialization and give her enlightment+mentoring from the start.
I will keep that in mind about the icons, I have done some icon editing for my new training skill based on barbarian-enlightment maybe there will be more later.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 21, 2009 07:11 PM |
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I agree about the balance issue, but if you make ultimates=>special perks players have to keep secondary skill slots open for a very long time to get them (until the meet all prerequisites). Therefore I want the ultimate to fall in the designated ultimate skill slot, this is only possible if the ultimate is connected to the racial skill (I have experimented with this in the past). A simple solution is to make unstoppable charge easier to get then nature luck.
Would it be possible to make it so that certain Ultimate Perks are tied with different racial skills for each race? What I mean is that Nature's Luck requires, say, Favored Enemy + Luck + Light + Logistics for Ranger, whereas it required Training + Luck + Light + Logistics for Knight.
I suppose that wouldn't work, though, because the skill has to be tied with a native skill (which would be Favored Enemy) which means that it wouldn't have anywhere to go for the Knight as he has no perks tied to Favored Enemy, right? And what if the skill was tied to Luck but was still listed as a special perk, would the game know to put it in the ultimate perk place, even though it was tied with Luck as basic perk?
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EVERY skill, with the exception of spellpower hungry skills can be good for any class, I mean: mass endurance +12 defense for the whole army is good for all classes. This is why Nival designed power of speed and power of haste (originally those 2 skills were exclusively for the warlock). The essence of a RPG system is dividing qualities over classes, not like one class can have everything that works for him. I like a lore approach: Demon Lords follow Urgash and can't use Light magic, no matter it would benefit them.
What you write is more true in theory than in reality. Not all factions have equal use of a skill like Light Magic - Necropolis, for instance, haven't got very much use of Light Magic, with the possible exception of Endurance. That's because Necropolis is a very defensive and slow faction, while Inferno as a fast and offensive faction has much better use of spells like Haste, Righteous Might and Divine Strength, not to mention Resurrection.
I acknowledge the logic of Demons being banned from Light Magic, but if you stick to Ashan lore, Light magic is neither any more nor any less related with Ashan than Dark magic, and possible the other types of magic as well. Remember that both the Dragon of Light and the Dragon of Dark are children of Asha and thus opposed to Urgash. Furthermore, I think it's always important to value gameplay over lore - after all, we play (at least I do) the game for the more than for the lore - otherwise I'd go read a book. 
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The game uses TGA, Kronos1000 wrote a guide about how to make backgrounds transparant, it's somewhere in the modders workshop. To make a icon useful in game it needs to be 128x128 TGA + the background needs to be fully transparant (not brown or black), then it must be converted to dds (can't remember exactly what type). Of course it's better to first extract the icons from the game instead of using AOH pictures as source.
I have extracted all the icons directly from the game, but it's true that I did the recolouring from the AOH pictures (I did not know it might actually come to being used) - however, if we get that far, I can do the recouloring on the original in-game icons, and then it will be great to know that there are people that can help us with reformating them, so thanx for the offer Willow!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 21, 2009 08:26 PM |
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Would it be possible to make it so that certain Ultimate Perks are tied with different racial skills for each race? What I mean is that Nature's Luck requires, say, Favored Enemy + Luck + Light + Logistics for Ranger, whereas it required Training + Luck + Light + Logistics for Knight.
You are right, this doesn't work.
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would the game know to put it in the ultimate perk place, even though it was tied with Luck as basic perk?
Doesn't work either
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That's because Necropolis is a very defensive and slow faction, while Inferno as a fast and offensive faction has much better use of spells like Haste, Righteous Might and Divine Strength, not to mention Resurrection.
I do not agree for two reasons:
1.Necromancers are slow and defensive, not the faction itself. Death knights will be much more offensive and fast.
2.Slow, defensive units benefit greatly from attack and speed increases, a hydra would be OP if it was faster and more offensive.
But that was not my most important argument. In my opinion the idea behind a game with RPG elements is the player chooses a certain class at the beginning of the game knowing it has certain qualities and weaknesses. Every class should have a fair amount of weaknesses (at least one primary skill and 3-4 secondary skills). So Light magic is chosen as one of the demon lords weaknesses because it's logical.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 21, 2009 10:13 PM |
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Quote:
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That's because Necropolis is a very defensive and slow faction, while Inferno as a fast and offensive faction has much better use of spells like Haste, Righteous Might and Divine Strength, not to mention Resurrection.
I do not agree for two reasons:
1.Necromancers are slow and defensive, not the faction itself. Death knights will be much more offensive and fast.
2.Slow, defensive units benefit greatly from attack and speed increases, a hydra would be OP if it was faster and more offensive.
Tactically, your argument here is actually wrong, but we're wandering slightly off topic. Necropolis has no unit with Initiative above 11 and speed above 7, which means that it's simply incapable of performing a first-strike combat strategy. Almost any faction will out-run it in terms of ATB for first attack, and none of its units apart from Vampire Lord can actually cross the battlefield in first turn.
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But that was not my most important argument. In my opinion the idea behind a game with RPG elements is the player chooses a certain class at the beginning of the game knowing it has certain qualities and weaknesses. Every class should have a fair amount of weaknesses (at least one primary skill and 3-4 secondary skills). So Light magic is chosen as one of the demon lords weaknesses because it's logical.
I agree with you here, every faction should have strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out more or less evenly - I still think Light Magic is an interesting choice for Demon Lord, but I agree it's rarely going to be an early game life saver, if for nothing else because of the fact that Light spells are not very accessible for Inferno.
Anyway, returning to the skill layouts, keeping it simple, I've edited my 3x3 design a bit. No class perks, no ultimate perks added here. Here are the figures.
No comments.
Defensive Formation replaces Barbarian Luck.
I know Battle Commander might seem a poor solution, but I don't see any serious problems with this skill, and it fills the slot.
Tear Of Asha Vision is obviously a dummy skill and only is here to fill the gap. Therefore placed in end of branch so people don't need to take it.
Again, Navigation is a dummy skill. I know you don't agree with this, but I'm very strongly determined that Navigation should be placed at end of branch so that people only need to take it if it's relevant.
I pushed Tripple Ballista / Catapult to third row so that if you want to really specialize in one of the machines, you cannot choose one of the others. Rules out slightly imba. Tripple Ballista / First Aid Tent combo.
No comments.
No comments.
I moved Barbarians Luck here to fill gap behind Master Of Storms. Might actually make this path a bit more attractive, and makes good synergy with Sap Magic.
Added the three most usefull perks in third branch. Slightly imba. combination of Fire Warriors and Elemental Balance is now no longer possible.
No comments.
Still a bit of a puzzle to solve, really. I kept Mana Burst here, liked the idea from my other suggestion, and it works well with Distract. Magic Insight and Arcane Brilliance seem to fit each other well. The only two really useful perks here are Distract and Counterspell, so they went in different branches. Combining the rest ... well, Erratic Mana and Arcane Training seem to double each other, so I placed Erratic Mana with Mana Regeneration, but it could be done the other way around also.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 21, 2009 10:39 PM |
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I agree with you here, every faction should have strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out more or less evenly - I still think Light Magic is an interesting choice for Demon Lord, but I agree it's rarely going to be an early game life saver, if for nothing else because of the fact that Light spells are not very accessible for Inferno.
One last thing I would like to mention: We are talking as if Light magic > Shatter Light magic. But who says that's true? Dark magic + shatter light is probably a much better combo for fighting good factions. It's not like the demonlord is nerfed.
Some comparison between your and mine ideas:
I like to keep some nival-combinations intact because that's easier for people to memorize, why break vitality->stand ground->preparation, recruitment->divine guidance->aura of swiftness
Dark magic:
Pariah only makes sense for good factions (skeletons scared by dark magic caster!?!) and is very powerful, please move to third row.
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I know Battle Commander might seem a poor solution, but I don't see any serious problems with this skill, and it fills the slot.
There are many faction specific skills not shown in your table, so no problem at all, for me (as modder) it's much easier to place empathy in second row then all faction specifics afterward.
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Again, Navigation is a dummy skill. I know you don't agree with this, but I'm very strongly determined that Navigation should be placed at end of branch so that people only need to take it if it's relevant.
In my latest plan I took it out completely, My base skills are scouting/pathfinding and marching (based on death march)
Have you tested familiar ground to work for lava,swamp etc?
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I pushed Tripple Ballista / Catapult to third row so that if you want to really specialize in one of the machines, you cannot choose one of the others. Rules out slightly imba. Tripple Ballista / First Aid Tent combo.
I agree on ballista not catapult, tremors needs magic prerequisite, otherwise it doesn't make any sense, same applies to plague tent and remote control.
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I moved Barbarians Luck here to fill gap behind Master Of Storms. Might actually make this path a bit more attractive, and makes good synergy with Sap Magic.
If we go for the shatters, fiery wrath needs to go back to destructive otherwise some classes can get it two times!
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Added the three most usefull perks in third branch. Slightly imba. combination of Fire Warriors and Elemental Balance is now no longer possible.
Banish and Runic Armor are very powerful too, so I don't mind fire warriors+elemental balance. Banish+exorcism makes more sense. Fog veil+runic armor too (defensive)
I guess you already figured out Back to the Void cannot be used because it's part of shatter summoning.
About Sorcery: I already have a full house on sorcery, if we move mana burst back to destructive after master of storms together with secrets of destruction then fiery wrath can be placed before ignite and sap magic can move to barbarian-enlightment. Having the ability for protection+sap magic+boneward+luck of the barbarian is a little IMBA in my opinion.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 22, 2009 01:51 AM |
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I haven't read the whole topic, so maybe someone else got the idea. it's about the perks you may learn.
a magic hero will be able to learn magic perks of levels 1, 2 and 3 and might perk of levels 1 and 2.
the contrary for the might hero.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2009 02:10 AM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 02:18, 22 Mar 2009.
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How do you want to block the expert mastery for some skills when it happens the level up?
My idea:
Giving to the expert mastery a prerequisite which is impossible to obtain.
just to block it
anyway it's impossible to give prerequisite to a skill.
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