|
|
DarkCrystal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Staright out of line
|
posted May 12, 2009 12:07 PM |
|
|
@RSF: Don't you mind to wait a bit? Now I'm kinda busy with the ending of school year, so perhaps I'll try to lead your fight tomorrow.
@Razor: K
____________
Sometimes I'm about to yell: "It is flat you idiots!" But I don't wanna die in fire. 
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 12, 2009 02:27 PM |
|
|
Ok,but I won't change my stats now.I think DC will start swearing at me if I request for him another stat update  (j/k)
Anyway,but the other stats are useless to upgrade IMO,defence can be upgraded with the Fortify and the Magic Resistance from the Magic Shield.Initiative seems useless,but it's pretty good to start first if you have high attack or powerful damaging spells.Mana it's not a big problem for me,3 is enough.
Well,probably after this battle I will request DC for an another update.
Sox,be ready,Evasion send the moves and I will send them right now
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 12:41 AM |
|
|
Initiative is very important. It allows you to get off a spell before your opponent can use Spell Shield. If both of you can kill each other in 3 moves, then whoever goes first will win.
Defense and Spell Resistance are one of those things that low amounts don't do much. You need to think of it in terms of how many hits from your opponent can you stay alive.
Suppose you have 20 HP and your opponent has 10 attack.
You have 0 defense, you last 2 turns.
1 defense, 3 turns
2 defense, 3 turns
3 defense, 3 turns
4 defense, 4 turns
5 defense, 4 turns
6 defense, 5 turns
7 defense, 7 turns
8 defense, 10 turns
9 defense, 20 turns
10 defense, infinite turns
As you can see this is a fairly non-linear system.
Turns Lived = 20 / (10 - Defense)
As Defense increases, the denominator will go to zero and the number of turns you'll last goes to infinity.
Ideally, each point of defense would have the same effect on how many turns you last. (Example: 2 defense = 1 extra turn)
What if the damage formula had Defense somehow proportionally reduce the damage. Perhaps it could look like this.
Damage = (1 - 0.05*Defense)*Attack
The issue here is that once you reach 20 defense you never take any damage, so this doesn't work either. Perhaps there is a way to work backwards and generate a defense formula based on the ideal case. Let's generate an ideal case. But what is the ideal case?
Suppose a defender has 0 defense and 20 HP and an attacker has 10 attack. The attacker should deal full damage yes? Well then now we have our starting point.
But here is the next question. How many points of defense should it take to live for an extra turn? 2 points of defense maybe? If so we'd have a table that looks like this.
0 defense, 2 turns
2 defense, 3 turns
4 defense, 4 turns
6 defense, 5 turns
8 defense, 6 turns
10 defense, 7 turns
Now how much damage would it take to generate this table?
-4 defense, 0 turns, infinite damage/turn
-3 defense, 0.5 turns, 40 damage/turn
-2 defense, 1 turn, 20 damage/turn
-1 defense, 1.5 turns, 13.3 damage/turn
0 defense, 2 turns, 10 damage/turn
1 defense, 2.5 turns, 8 damage/turn
2 defense, 3 turns, 6.67 damage/turn
3 defense, 3.5 turns, 5.71 damage/turn
4 defense, 4 turns, 5 damage/turn
5 defense, 4.5 turns, 4.44 damage/turn
6 defense, 5 turns, 4 damage/turn
7 defense, 5.5 turns, 3.63 damage/turn
8 defense, 6 turns, 3.33 damage/turn
9 defense, 6.5 turns, 3.07 damage/turn
10 defense, 7 turns, 2.86 damage/turn
Now we can convert this into damage formulas for defense.
0 Defense = 100% damage
1 Defense = 80% damage
2 Defense = 66.7% damage
3 Defense = 57.1% damage
4 Defense = 50% damage
5 Defense = 44.4% damage
and so on...
Do I think that this is balanced? No I don't, but we can find a balance in determining how much defense = turns lived. However this is nice in that Fortify and Spell Shield will guarantee that you live one turn longer than you would otherwise.
Also wrathful attack will make you last one turn shorter than you would otherwise. Just something to think about.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 10:26 AM |
|
|
Sox,that was an idea to balance the game or just a guide?
If it is to balance the game I'd agree with you.The damage formulas for devense,the last part shows something non-balanced:the difference of damage% takes with different amount of defence stats
Another nonbalanced is the part where you have 10 or more defence because there your opponent could not even reduce your hp,and about your other stats even if you have 1 attack,1 mana,1 spellpower you can kill your opponent.
But the damage reduced proportionally by the defence seems easy overpowered.I think there should be something like:
Damage (1 reduced 0.2 by the defence
because 0.5 seems too much. Luckly it doesn't get transformed into 1
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 11:39 AM |
|
|
I think we need to look at this a bit further.
What if your opponent has 20 attack? Will this defense formula still work with the same effectiveness in that 2 defense gives you 1 extra turn to live?
20 Attack Chart:
0 defense, 1 turn, 20 damage/turn
1 defense, 1.25 turns, 16 damage/turn
2 defense, 1.5 turns, 13.3 damage/turn
3 defense, 1.75 turns, 11.4 damage/turn
4 defense, 2 turns, 10 damage/turn
So here the opponent has twice the amount of attack, and kills his opponent in half the amount of time. You can also see that it now requires 4 defense to last an additional turn instead of just 2 defense.
Now let's see what happens if a person w/ 10 attack and 10 defense, fights a person with 20 attack and 0 defense. In the old system, both players would deal 10 damage each hit. We need to see what happens in this case with a new damage calculation.
20 Attack vs 10 Defense:
20 * 0.286 = 5.72 damage
10 Attack vs 0 Defense:
10 * 1.000 = 10 damage
So we can see that the player with balanced stats is better.
Now let's see what happens when a super defensive player (5 attack, 15 defense) goes up against the all attack build and the balanced stats.
5 Attack vs 10 Defense:
5 * 0.286 = 1.43 damage
10 Attack vs 15 Defense:
10 * 0.211 = 2.1 damage
5 Attack vs 0 Defense:
5 * 1.000 = 5 damage
20 Attack vs 15 Defense:
20 * 0.211 = 4.22 damage
So here we see that a 5 attack vs 15 defense strategy is still better than the all attack strategy, but not as good as the balanced stats strategy. Finally let's try a 15 attack, 5 defense strategy and see what happens.
15 Attack vs 10 Defense:
15 * 0.286 = 4.29 damage
10 Attack vs 5 Defense:
10 * 0.444 = 4.44 damage
This strategy is about even. It is my guess that having slightly higher attack then defense is probably your optimum build.
11a v 10d:
11 * 0.286 = 3.15 damage
10a v 9d:
10 * 0.307 = 3.07 damage
11/9 is better than 10/10
12a v 9d:
12 * 0.307 = 3.684 damage
11a v 8d:
11 * 0.333 = 3.663 damage
12/8 is almost equal to 11/9.
This would make battles last about 5 turns, since these numbers would round up to 4 damage a turn.
I want to see what happens when we increase attack and defense.
0a vs 0d = 0 * 1.000 = 0.000
1a vs 1d = 1 * 0.800 = 0.800
2a vs 2d = 2 * 0.667 = 1.333
3a vs 3d = 3 * 0.571 = 1.713
5a vs 5d = 5 * 0.444 = 2.222
10a vs 10d = 10 * 0.286 = 2.86
15a vs 15d = 15 * 0.211 = 3.17
20a vs 20d = 20 * 0.167 = 3.33
50a vs 50d = 50 * 0.074 = 3.70
Surprisingly battles would level off at about 4 to 5 turns where at the beginning it would last about 8 to 10 turns.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 12:00 PM |
|
|
I'm not really all that happy with this system.
What if instead we gave weapons a base damage? And then had attack and defense modify the base damage? Like in HoMM?
Suppose base damage on a weapon is 5.
The damage formula would look like this.
Base damage * [1 + 0.1 * (Attack - Defense)]
How will this system look? This system will work almost identical to the one we have now, except that equal attack and defense will still deal 5 damage instead of 0 damage. It will be difficult to achieve defense 10 higher than your opponent.
Well now we have pure differences in attack and defense determining the final damage.
Each point of defense reduces damage by 0.5. Each point of attack increases damage by 0.5. However since we are starting at 5 base damage.
This system is starting to look better. However I think that the ideal system would be one that starts with base damage, then attack increasing base damage, and then defense reducing total damage on a percentage basis such that there is no magic number for defense where you become immune to damage.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
Ednaguy
Supreme Hero
My water just broke! No, wait.
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 12:15 PM |
|
|
I like both of your proposals. Any of the two would be fine for me 
____________
"Edna, there's a special, tiny, tiny place in hell, waiting just for you... "
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 12:50 PM |
|
|
The thing that worries me a bit though is how to calculate damage formulas for mages. If too much damage is mitigated, on top of there already being spell shield. Then it could require massive amounts of mana to kill someone who has decent magic resistance and uses spell shield every turn so you run out of mana.
One possible solution would be to change the way the mana system works. Mana could fully regenerate after each round. But perhaps we could make Energy Orb cost 2 mana instead of 1.
If we gear the system to last more than 5 turns, then mages would only need 6 mana or so to be effective. 2 turns could be used for mind games, such as fortify or wrathful attack, if they think their opponents will try to block with spell shield.
I'd also like to perhaps see more utility spells added to this game for mages.
Perhaps we could add more things such as Mana Shields where the mage can cast a mana shield to protect themselves from a specified amount of damage that is somehow based on spellpower
I think this would make sense that a mage would have low attack, defense, and agility, but high spell power. A toolkit of spells to provide some survivability and longevity would be required.
IDEA: Rather than have mages regenerate all mana each round, why not have a spell called Mana Regeneration. This spell would regenerate a certain amount of mana to the mage at the end of each round. This amount would be based on the spell power of the mage.
So perhaps it would regenerate 0.5*Spellpower mana at the end of each round.
So 10 spell power grants the mage 5 mana each round.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:36 PM |
|
Edited by razor5 at 17:46, 13 May 2009.
|
The new proposal looks much better than the first.Hope DC will add this
Sox,would you challange me? But please wait until I will HCM Evasion to see if he kills or mercy me
EDIT: Evasion mercy me,he told me that on HCM 
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 14, 2009 12:15 AM |
|
|
Alright I'll challenge you. Blood Prince can wait I guess. I'll see if BETA will do our fight.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 14, 2009 01:31 PM |
|
|
DC,you forgot to update my stats with that 3 SP what Edna told me I had them free (ok,the last stat update)
Health 22 (1Sp for 2 health)
Attack 1
Defence 1
Agility 1
Initative 3 (1Sp for 1 initiative)
Magic Resistance 3 (1Sp for 1 magic resistance)
Spell Power 9
Mana 3
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted May 15, 2009 11:09 AM |
|
|
I sent BETA these stats, so just send him your moves and we can BATTLE!!!
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
B-E-T-A
Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
|
|
posted May 15, 2009 11:51 AM |
|
|
^Jupp, you can battle as soon as I have finnished hurling lightning bolts at random people throughout the world. 
____________
There is no good or evil, only madness. The question is "Just how mad are you?"
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 15, 2009 01:14 PM |
|
|
|
Ok,I will send them right now
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
