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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: EU bans use of 'Miss' and 'Mrs'
Thread: EU bans use of 'Miss' and 'Mrs' [ This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 ]
Binabik
Binabik


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posted March 20, 2009 04:38 AM

Is this "ban" only for official government documents? Or does it apply to the people? If it applies to the people it's clearly a violation of freedom of speech and should be dealt with as such. There's no way in hell the government is going to tell me what words I can use. (and I'm perfectly willing to go to jail to spite any government which tries)

In the US they've had the politically correct bull**** for a long time, but it's not mandated by law. Specifically the gender neutral words have been used for a long time. Instead of Mrs or Miss, it's Ms.

fireman = fire fighter
policeman = police officer
waitress/waiter = server
stewardess = flight attendant (when I was a kid stewardesses were required to be single)

But the thing is, these words are all voluntary. Some of the gender neutral words caught on more than others. Most of the words don't really matter one way or the other, and most people don't care which ones are used. Most of the people who actually get uptight about words like that are people who just look for an excuse to be radical pain-in-the-arses. If they can't be a PITA about that, they'll just find another reason.

It actually surprises me that way people are talking in this thread. We went through this debate in the US 2-3 decades ago. My experience is that MOST women hate this crap and they hate feminists. MOST women don't feel degraded in any way by gender based language. They are female, so what's wrong with acknowledging that? Is society really trying to tell them there's something WRONG with being female?

You often hear about the feminists hating men, but as my sister puts it, they don't hate men, they hate women, and they especially hate women who CHOOSE to be feminine. I said this in another thread, the feminists only want to take women out of one cage and put them into another, put them in a cage where they are no longer allowed to be female. People are all different, let them decide for themselves.

And the government can kiss my arse.



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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 21, 2009 06:33 AM

Just for clarification:

1) The address
I've already stated that address forms Miss and Mrs. on one hand and Mr. on the other is against the constitution that grants no discrimination and so on.
Ergo, as soon as someone suing for that the constitutional judges give this a look and they have no chance really.
From this point on "Miss" as an address is comparable with "snow" or "stupid cow" - a discriminating insult.
Of course you can insult people as much as you like, nothing will happen as long as no one acts.
In reality, if you call someone "Miss", that someone may tell you, she doesn't appreciate "Miss" and would like to be called "Mrs." - AS IS HER RIGHT! In this case you can of course call her still "Miss" - but now she can go to the police and the police will give you a warning and a fine, comparable to if you shown her the finger or called he something rude. If she does NOT, nothing happens - you just inhibited her rights.
This is basically a PERSONAL thing.

2) Names for professions
This is a GENERAL thing, and calling a stewardess a stewardess (and a steward a steward) is not in itself a discrimination of the person. That's why these things are voluntary, especially when there are no better names available.
You can argue about whether gender neutral names for professions or not will help in creating equal chances for members of different genders to choose a certain profession - I'd say, for example, that a girl will have more trouble with "I want to become a policeman" than a boy, while for a boy it's difficult to say "I want to become a stewardess" (since "steward" has a different meaning).

In practise, it will look like this: if you insist on calling a stewardess a stewardess, even after telling you that she is a flight attendant, she may simply ignore you.

Should I mention that names are extremely important?
Consider these:
Serving Maid
Waitress
Stewardess
Flight Attendant

Which one sounds best? Serving Maid, of course, but that's only because we are male and writing in a fantasy forum (and serving wench would sound even "better").
Flight Attendant.

I mean "pleasure comsultant" sounds a lot better than whöre, obviously, AND is gender neutral, extremely important in today's pleasure industry, so, yes.
Having "correct" names does a lot to do away with bias, inrquality and so on, given some time.

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FriendOfGunnar
FriendOfGunnar


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Supreme Hero
and space cadet
posted March 21, 2009 07:16 AM
Edited by friendofgunnar at 07:17, 21 Mar 2009.

It's kind of funny how the Miss/Mrs/Ms thing plays out here in America.  Recently an young attractive woman was elected to our city council. The main newspapers avoided the Miss/Mrs/Ms thing completely but the irreverant alternative weekly newspaper made it a point to use "Miss Soandso" at every opportunity.

"Ms" used to be somewhat popular but it seems to be fading more and more  as the years go by. Whats become very rare nowadays though is referring to a married woman by her husband, such as Mrs. Chuck Powers.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
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posted March 21, 2009 07:37 AM

oh, by the way, in Polish, there is no such thing as miss/mrs. We use "pan" for males and "pani" for females. No reference to marital status.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 21, 2009 01:00 PM

Quote:
In other words, German language is a complete desaster.
No it's the damn language it is, it evolved, etc... you don't have to change it, that would be a complete disaster. We usually use the term "adapt" instead but "adapting" shouldn't modify existing structure or words, maybe just add new ones.

You know there's 100% "synthetic" languages, if natural languages don't seem to appeal to you. Those are made "logical" so obviously, you will probably like them a lot as they don't "favor" (lol) one gender or one group or one whatever.

Quote:
Lastly, I'm really surprised about what "linguists" write nowadays
Although I am not a linguist I can clearly see Dagoth's point on the matter. What I am surprised is the I-know-all-and-you-write-nonsense attitude on just about any subject

Quote:
I mean "pleasure comsultant" sounds a lot better than whöre, obviously, AND is gender neutral, extremely important in today's pleasure industry, so, yes.
how that is a "consultant" is kinda beyond my grasp

Quote:
oh, by the way, in Polish, there is no such thing as miss/mrs.
Good for you, that's how Polish it is. It's how the damn language is. Changing that will make it dull.

This last bit was very useful to mention in case someone doesn't get my "point" here. (ahem... )
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Celfious
Celfious


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NPC
posted March 21, 2009 01:02 PM

I'm going to ban a word one day... lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 22, 2009 06:00 AM

Quote:
Quote:
In other words, German language is a complete desaster.
No it's the damn language it is, it evolved, etc...
As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Or did you know that we had a couple of "spelling reforms" in German within the last, umm, 15 or so years? With the result that lots of words now OFFICIALLY can be written more than one way AND (and this is no joke and no overstatement), virtually every big publishing house for print media has their own (personal) spelling rules.
Can you imagine what that means for schools and TEACHING German?

Trust me, German IS a complete desaster.
Quote:

Quote:
Lastly, I'm really surprised about what "linguists" write nowadays
Although I am not a linguist I can clearly see Dagoth's point on the matter. What I am surprised is the I-know-all-and-you-write-nonsense attitude on just about any subject
I'm not surprised that you can see a point in an obvious contradiction - after all you don't let yourself stop by them as well. For the bold print, you mean you are still surprising yourself?
Quote:

Quote:
I mean "pleasure comsultant" sounds a lot better than whöre, obviously, AND is gender neutral, extremely important in today's pleasure industry, so, yes.
how that is a "consultant" is kinda beyond my grasp
Considering your views on "pleasure" I don't doubt that.

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Baklava
Baklava


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posted March 22, 2009 06:09 AM

Quote:
In Germany this has long been done, by the way, and it was high time.

Quote:
did you know that we had a couple of "spelling reforms" in German within the last, umm, 15 or so years?
...
Trust me, German IS a complete desaster.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 22, 2009 06:48 AM

An adress has nothing to do with the grammar and spelling of a language. The German pendants to Miss and Mrs. were there and in use, and the COURTS simply decreed that when you reach grown-up age - 18 - you have a right to insist on being called Mrs., no matter your social status. Period.
That hasn't got anything to do with the language, it has something to do with RIGHTS.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 22, 2009 11:27 AM
Edited by TheDeath at 11:28, 22 Mar 2009.

Quote:
As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Or did you know that we had a couple of "spelling reforms" in German within the last, umm, 15 or so years? With the result that lots of words now OFFICIALLY can be written more than one way AND (and this is no joke and no overstatement), virtually every big publishing house for print media has their own (personal) spelling rules.
Can you imagine what that means for schools and TEACHING German?

Trust me, German IS a complete desaster.
I was talking about ANY reforms, like baklava pointed out. You simply select which ones you think are disastrous and which are not. So yes I think I pretty much had an "idea" or rather at least a "point".

Quote:
I'm not surprised that you can see a point in an obvious contradiction - after all you don't let yourself stop by them as well. For the bold print, you mean you are still surprising yourself?
Except for the part that your sarcasm doesn't work, since it isn't me who writes the word "nonsense" constantly.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 22, 2009 12:09 PM

Quote:
I was talking about ANY reforms, like baklava pointed out.
You mean, a court decision that a legally grown-up, but unmarried woman has a right to be addressed the same as way as a married one, is a language reform.
That you can't address a black person as "snow" is a LANGUAGE REFORM?
And you think you have a point?
And if you will go back and read that first post of mine again that I closed with German is a desaster, you'll see that I explained there, that gender neutral words like in othr languages are not possible because the articles are not gender neutral...


Quote:
I'm not surprised that you can see a point in an obvious contradiction - after all you don't let yourself stop by them as well. For the bold print, you mean you are still surprising yourself?
Except for the part that your sarcasm doesn't work, since it isn't me who writes the word "nonsense" constantly.
The answer that suggests itself here is so obvious, I'll pass on it.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 22, 2009 03:52 PM

Of course I read your post, and like I said, it's how the language is. Polish, like Doomforge said (I trust him as I know nothing of it), is gender neutral with this issue. German is not, and that makes it a disaster? Speak Polish then

Or better, use a synthetic language -- at least you can "fit" that to your needs, that's their purpose, isn't it? Like politicians do these days, they should make up their own language IMO.

Quote:
The answer that suggests itself here is so obvious, I'll pass on it.
Actually that was my whole point, because you seem keen on drawing wrong conclusions. I did not say you write nonsense, I said you write the WORD nonsense (or do you need a word processor to count that word in your posts?). I'm not going down to your subjective level, thank you very much.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


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fallen artist
posted March 22, 2009 04:06 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 16:25, 22 Mar 2009.

Haven't heard of it at all. Looks like queer deviants are taking over our government Soon they are going to enforce complete unisex for this sick ideology.
Quote:
new guidelines in its bid to create 'gender-neutral' language.

Simplyfying language is something that communists do. And no, it's not likely to help - as it caused no trouble for ages.
Quote:
Like politicians do these days, they should make up their own language IMO.

They already did.

The main point of language is to describe things, however image described using manipulated language has not much in common with reality. On the other hand, the lie repeated thousand times becomes a truth.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 22, 2009 05:03 PM

Quote:
They already did.
Not entirely, they still like to mess with the language people speak. I was talking about a full political language, without interference on "local" language or whatever you wanna call it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 22, 2009 05:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:
The answer that suggests itself here is so obvious, I'll pass on it.
Actually that was my whole point, because you seem keen on drawing wrong conclusions. I did not say you write nonsense, I said you write the WORD nonsense (or do you need a word processor to count that word in your posts?). I'm not going down to your subjective level, thank you very much.


Interesting. Your whole point is that I'm keen on drawing conclusions, when you are keen on drawing the conclusion that I couldn't read your post properly.
You should trust me to be a bit more sarcastic than that.

In any case, yet again it doesn't amount to much, so why argue at all? It's pointless and a complete waste of time.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

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Fox or Chicken?
posted March 22, 2009 05:41 PM

Good to see the European Union is tackling today's tough issues.  
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 22, 2009 08:11 PM

@JJ: I wasn't sarcastic
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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posted March 22, 2009 08:13 PM

Quote:
Good to see the European Union is tackling today's tough issues.  
hey, you just worry about your bailout!
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted March 22, 2009 08:15 PM

Quote:
Quote:
They already did.
Not entirely, they still like to mess with the language people speak. I was talking about a full political language, without interference on "local" language or whatever you wanna call it.
Actually, a technique of populists is to twist the language in a dialect, so you can't argue with them and the people will feel they talk on the same level as them, which is very dangerous...
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 23, 2009 02:03 AM

Quote:
@JJ: I wasn't sarcastic

No one said you were.

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