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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Behold! Battle of Dragons. Dungeon vs Rampart.
Thread: Behold! Battle of Dragons. Dungeon vs Rampart. This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
andiangelsla...
andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted March 08, 2002 02:30 AM

no thx lol, rampart won, playing on is a toss, and you know my oppinion on all this anyway

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zhuge
zhuge


Hired Hero
posted March 08, 2002 04:26 AM
Edited By: zhuge on 7 Mar 2002

sos stated:
***********************************************************
I apologize if I have offended you thunderknight. My last post was to give you an idea of what IMO is a bit better move. My plan was to kill all hags with centaurus and unicorns and place them in a position where they both can reach the other side next turn. This will leave 7 minos, but there will be no more sacrificing (at least for a while). Compared to your pegasi moves this was actually quite good, and shooting the scorpies with elves is even better. So I hope you learn something from this battle and please play along, you are getting better with every move  
************************************************************

I too apologize to thunderknight if my remarks have made you feel bad. I come from a Guild which highly values tactics and strategy and at times I tend to nitpick regarding small issues. Shooting Scorpicores is probably best provided there is good follow-up.


sos continued:
************************************************************
Another option is to just move dwarves forward a bit to prevent a breath attack on dwarves and elves. Finnally unicorns will abouth half the harpies so one sacrifice will not be that bad.
************************************************************

One way is to put them in front of the elves with 1 hex in between thus increasing the number of hexes to strike the Blacks when they attack next turn. Another is to place them in the middle of your army (roughly) so as to be able to reach/support as many units as possible. The 36 Harpies are quite capable of resurrecting all Minos, halving them will still resurrect about 10 Minos. Not that bad, fair enough. But could it be still better?


sos mentioned:
************************************************************
I guess I take this a bit too seriously  It's different than actual battle, because many factors are not taken into account; it's more like chess where you can think a lot for the best moves for you. It's interesting to see different people play, so again, please play along with us.
************************************************************

It is different. However it provides a framework for raw tactics when complicating random factors are excluded. Random factors may matter less in HoMM4 as the function of morale and luck have been totally changed. I too would like to see thunderknight back. Who else is with us?


sos lamented:
************************************************************
oops my bad - dwarves cant step on top of scorpies this turn, damn  
************************************************************

Yea, so near, yet so far...


sos stated:
************************************************************
one more point: unit that is dead, not always moves when it is resurrected in subsequent rounds. As far as I know no one has figured this out, even the great Re-Animator after a bunch of tests. It depends on when exactly is the unit resurrected (before/after its time to move, before/after its time to move on the wait phase) - sometimes the unit can move, sometimes not. This means that if Scorpies are resurrected they may or may not move that round. I guess for our purposes tho we can assume that the unit always moves the same round when resurrected, unless someone wants to follow the moves of the battle to check that  
************************************************************

Yes, a very important point. Of course for a stack which has only lost some units, Resurrection does not affect move sequence. However, when a whole stack is completely destroyed then resurrected, whether it moves depends on whether it was supposed to have a move in that round.
For example, say if you kill all Scorpicores with Golds at the start of the round before the Scorpicores get to move, then a Sacrifice during the Blacks turn will give the Scorpicores their move.
However if the Scorpicores were say killed by Grand Elves 1 round before, that means they (already dead) are not entitled to a move in the present round and a Sacrifice during the Blacks turn will see them missing their move for the entire round.
The irritating thing with HoMM3 is it has had a gazillion patches since the original RoE. I playtested out some of the parts above with SoD. Seems to hold true. Others can try this with different versions/patches. I hope that makes things clearer.


andi declined:
************************************************************
no thx lol, rampart won, playing on is a toss, and you know my oppinion on all this anyway  
************************************************************

If Rampart wins, that is mainly due to a few serious initial blunders by Dungeon in round 1. Subsequently Djive's play amongst others was quite commendable. It would be interesting to know how you would have better played it (the Dungeon side) at the end of the battle. We can all exchange pointers on how to optimize play then.


Anyway, elves have shot, Scorps are dead and it's Evil Eyes turn. Let's get this finished soon.


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Snogard
Snogard


Known Hero
customised
posted March 08, 2002 05:41 AM

Quote:
I too would like to see thunderknight back. Who else is with us?


Errrh... can I say "ALL the dungeon players"

Quote:

Yes, a very important point. Of course ...


See what I meant!  Already, I can see my ex.p increasing...

Quote:

andi declined:
************************************************************
no thx lol, rampart won, playing on is a toss, and you know my oppinion on all this anyway  
************************************************************

If Rampart wins, that is mainly due to a few serious initial blunders by Dungeon in round 1. Subsequently Djive's play amongst others was quite commendable. It would be interesting to know how you would have better played it (the Dungeon side) at the end of the battle. We can all exchange pointers on how to optimize play then.



Can't agree more to this.
Anymore dungeon players?  Let's get this over soon.


Evil Eyes wait.

Medusa Queens are next.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 08, 2002 09:50 AM
Edited By: Djive on 8 Mar 2002

Medusa Queens shoot Gold Dragons.

Medusa Queens do 36 * 7 * 0.53 (A/D=-19) /2 = 67 damage.

3 Gold Dragons remain top with 243 Health

Battle Dwarves are next.

About shooting tactics. It was a mistake to shoot elves last round, that fire should instead have been aimed at the Gold Dragons. Of course I had hoped that the inferno would hit the elves, that would have left us 10 less elves this round. Btw. the top elf probably doesn't have full health. The resurrection would be enough just to resurrect 30 elves + 10 health, and a little more than 31 elves had been killed. Rampart would have resurrected elves anyway this round.

I'd recommend shooting some Elves with the other troops.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 08, 2002 04:39 PM

dwarves move to E14, second hex on the fifth row.

balista is next

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 08, 2002 05:19 PM

Ballista shoots Grand Elves.

Ballista does 55 damage (same as last round).

After resurrection there was 63 Elves, top with 3 Health. So ballista kills 4 Elves (48), and wounds the fifth.

59 Grand Elves remain top with 8 Health

Evil Eyes are next...


Tactics for next round.

Dungeon can't let the elves continue to fire. There's two ways to get a unit adjacent to the elves.

Either Dunegon attacks them with the Black Dragons or Dungeon Teleports the Evil Eyes or the Medusa so they become adjacent to the Elves.

If the Dragons attack, the spell which makes the most sense is Mass Curse. If Rampart wants to get the Dendroids back in the next turn then they'll have to cast Cure instead of a new Bless, so we will remove the Bless effects for most of the enemy units or the Dendroid's attack will be forfeited. Dungeon can also hold off the spell-casting a while at the cost of the units dealing more damage to the Blackies. Dungeon could also consider to Sacrifice Harpies. Other alternatives includes to Teleport a second unit to assist the Dragons to kill the elves.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 08, 2002 06:25 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 8 Mar 2002

Resurrection matter was decided in the first battle thread. If the Scorpicores are going to be resurrected in the next round with Sacrifice, they can't make an action that round.

And, of course, Thunderknight should keep on playing. I have seen a lot worse moves than what he has done.

I have played those battle maps of the H3trio, Zhuge. Over a year ago. Biggest flaw in them is that they are against computer.

!Evil Eyes attack the Grand Elves!

Evil Eyes do (46*4*0.93*0.85/2) 73 point of damage, killing 5 (60+8) and damaging the sixth.

54 Grand Elves remain top with 10 Health.

!It is now the turn of the War Unicorns!
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 08, 2002 07:42 PM
Edited By: sos on 8 Mar 2002

Unicorns attack harpies from North (I8-9) doing 13 * 23 * 1.15 * 0.7 = 241 damage.
19 Hags remain, top with 6 health.

Hags retaliate doing 19 * 2.5 * 1.3 * 0.6 * 0.7 * 0.85 = 22 damage.

13 unicorns remain, top with 48 health.

Blind didnt work.

Time for summary and comments.

Quote:
Resurrection matter was decided in the first battle thread. If the Scorpicores are going to be resurrected in the next round with Sacrifice, they can't make an action that round.



Hehe, if I knew this I would kill all minos this round
Good thing is that now the only Dungeon unit that can reach elves is blackies, unless teleport is used. In this case tho blackes will be the only dungeon unit that will deal some damage. I can bet that Blackies wont attack elves on their turn, because they will be bound by dendros. They may let elves shoot with a range penalty (which is also not good since one blackie will die) and attack them on the wait phase. Well, I shoud worry more about Rampart moves lol

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 09, 2002 04:33 AM

Djive I do not agree with your teleport tactic because elves would not even have to wait.
Send the dragons the centaurs & unicorns will munch them.
Send evil eyes then thats one less shooter to worry about with the same centaur & unicorn tactic oh & if they still dont die I forgot the dwarfs can help.
Only chance of waring them down is to shoot them,blind them, some kind of negative Or offensive spells.
resurrection might work after the war unicorns move next turn & ressurect the scorpicores & they can attack next for the elves & the only people to attack is the centaurs & the dwarfs.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 09, 2002 10:43 AM

Quote:
Only chance of waring them down is to shoot them,blind them, some kind of negative Or offensive spells.


The Elves out-shots the Dungeon troops and there's no hope at all in that tactics working now. Even with a range penalty the Elves will down about 1 Black Dragon per turn we wait, and Rampart still has spellpoints for 1 more resurrection. Simply too few hitpoints remaining for Dungeon, and the elves take them faster than Dungeon can sacrifice for new ones.

Negative spells on the elves are all but ineffectual, since Rampart has both Cure (To remove any bad effects) and Bless (to counter Mass Curse if we choose not to attack), and will use Resurrect again if we kill to many of the elves.

Andi is probably right in saying that the battle is lost. was probably lost in the first round already. Rampart will have to do some very stupid moves for it to be otherwise.

It seems that Kyrre has the skills and spells I'd like to see for the Dungeon hero. So if Kyrre was leading the Dungeon troops and Dameacon the Rampart troops the roles would likely have been reversed, even though Rampart has a big HP advantage.
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andiangelsla...
andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2002 01:30 PM

battle was over when scorpis attacked dendros
oh and when blacks did attack goldis instead of breathing centaurs and dwarves

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2002 05:22 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 11 Mar 2002

Spells in effect:
Expert Shield on Rampart units (2 rounds remainining)
Expert Stoneskin on Rampart units (3 rounds remaining)
Expert Shield on Dungeon units (3 rounds remaining)
Expert Stoneskin on Dungeon units (4 rounds remaining)
Expert Bless on Rampart units (4 rounds remaining)


Dungeon Units
5 Black Dragons (Health 292, Att 38, Def 38)
3 Minotaur Kings (Health 14, Att 28, Def 34, Sh, St)
36 Medusa Queens (Att 23, Def 29, Sh, St)
46 Evil Eyes (Health 5, Att 23, Def 27, Sh, St)
19 Harpy Hags (Health 6, Att 19, Def 25, Sh, St)

Rampart Units
3 Gold Dragons (Health 243, Att 40, Def 42)
13 War Unicorns (Health 48, Att 28, Def 35, Sh, St, Bl)
17 Denroid Soldiers (Health 63, Att 22, Def 33(40), Sh, St, Bl)
54 Grand Elves (Health 10, Att 22, Def 26, Sh, St, Bl)
81 Battle Dwarwes (Health 10, Att 20, Def 28, Sh, St, Bl)
111 Centaur Captains (Att 19, Def 24, Sh, St, Bl)

Until their next action Dendroid Soldiers have 20% additional defence, the number within parenthesis above.

Creatures Movement Order
Gold Dragons: 16
Black Dragons: 15  
War Unicorns: 9
Harpy Hags: 9
Centaur Captains: 8
Minotaur Kings: 8
Grand Elves: 7
Evil Eyes: 7
Medusa Queens: 6
Battle Dwarwes: 5
Dendroid Soldiers: 4 (Paralyzed (2 rounds left))
Ballista


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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 09, 2002 11:18 PM

Lets wait for the picture, but I think Goldies should maybe wait and put the pressure on dungeon. Blackies move is the most critical one lol

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zhuge
zhuge


Hired Hero
posted March 10, 2002 03:41 AM

Excuse me for I have been rather ill for the past day or so and unable to post. I'll just slot in a few brief comments here.

djive stated:
Andi is probably right in saying that the battle is lost. was probably lost in the first round already. Rampart will have to do some very stupid moves for it to be otherwise.

Quite right. Dungeon should have sought other means to overcome a HP disadvantage. Harpies in particular should have been placed outside the 10 hex range of the elves while still being able to hit a unit for free in the next round. Scorpicores can utilize a similar hit and run concept and Minotaurs too if possible.
What was actually played was Scorpicores virtually killed themselves in round 1 and Harpies gave themselves up as an easy target. Quite a pity, otherwise this match up might have been more interesting.


djive stated:
It seems that Kyrre has the skills and spells I'd like to see for the Dungeon hero. So if Kyrre was leading the Dungeon troops and Dameacon the Rampart troops the roles would likely have been reversed, even though Rampart has a big HP advantage.

Indeed, an Overlord is supposed to have the greatest chance of learning Tactics amongst all the various hero class types, so to be fair, Dungeon should be the faction getting a tactical advantage instead of Rampart. I wouldn't take away Archery from a Ranger though, they are considerably prone to develop that skill.


thunder mentioned:
I have played those battle maps of the H3trio, Zhuge. Over a year ago. Biggest flaw in them is that they are against computer.

I see. But these battles are really meant to be good stepping stones in improving one's performance Vs the AI. I completely agree that dealing with a human player is a much more complex affair but in every HoMM map there will be crucial battles which are sometimes fought against the AI. That is where the experience will pay off.
If you feel the maps are too easy for you, I suggest you try the Conflux series without spells, without high morale/good luck, without initial bonus artifacts. We can discuss the maps in more detail then.



sos stated:
Good thing is that now the only Dungeon unit that can reach elves is blackies, unless teleport is used. In this case tho blackes will be the only dungeon unit that will deal some damage. I can bet that Blackies wont attack elves on their turn, because they will be bound by dendros. They may let elves shoot with a range penalty (which is also not good since one blackie will die) and attack them on the wait phase. Well, I shoud worry more about Rampart moves lol

If you are so worried about the elves, 1 Forcefield will resolve the matter but I would not really advise it to be cast straightaway, otherwise, Dungeon will have a field day with spells.

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 10, 2002 07:12 AM

Quote:
If you are so worried about the elves, 1 Forcefield will resolve the matter but I would not really advise it to be cast straightaway, otherwise, Dungeon will have a field day with spells.



Nah, expert remove obstacles will remove it. I rather wait with goldies and have the last move/spell

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zhuge
zhuge


Hired Hero
posted March 10, 2002 07:41 AM
Edited By: zhuge on 10 Mar 2002

Yes, but Dungeon doesn't have Expert Water Magic and Remove Obstacle is a Water spell. It also doesn't have Expert Dispel which would effectively remove the forcefield, not to mention Bless and the whole list of spells.

quoting from spell description:
Remove Obstacle
Basic: Removes one, non-magic obstacle from the battlefield.  Integrated obstacles, such as cliffs are not affected.

I do however agree that it may be better to delay casting a bit till Dungeon has committed itself.

btw, there are only 5 Blacks left with 292hp for the top creature instead of 6 as stated where the damage done in round 4 was not taken into account.



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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 11, 2002 03:37 AM

Hi all,

Ya, long time no post. Not bcoz I'm pissed off but just
some more important stuff to do (acutally it's an exam )

It seems my tactic are not very welcome by most reasonable players.(believe it or not, I do have a overall tactic, the tactic of traitor lol )

Ya, I keep put unit together so blackie can breath attack. But so what. Can't you see rampart already win loooong loooong time ago (see my post in earlier page, forget it's page 3 or 4).

All those dumb moves are both dumb and trapsas well. The only genuine dumb move is the 2nd pegasus move. Would blackie dare to breath attack centaur and goldie this turn even we wait with goldie ???? If so, dungeon will speed up it's loss. Elves shoot = down of 2 blackie, dendroid binding + centaur or maybe dwarves, blackie nearly finished. Unicorn step on dead body of scorp or maybe simply pick a shooter or go back to shield elves. Simply it will be the most dumb move if blackie choose to breath attack centaur, even more dumb if choose to breath attack goldie.

It seems there are many options for dungeon, but I can tell you most of these options will yield the same result: rampart win. To take hp advantage, rampart should force dungeon to finish battle sooner before run out of spell points.

When playing snooker, you can win by making those balls into net asap, you can also win by setting traps for opponent. I sincerely respect the dungeon player, especially Djive, so I put up my rarest used tactic for them.

Anyway, keep playing, I also would like to see how dungeon can win without the help of me, the biggest rampart traitor.
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and love what you choose.

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Snogard
Snogard


Known Hero
customised
posted March 11, 2002 03:52 AM

No picture yet?
Alright dungeon players, here's the plan.
We'll inflict as much damage as possible (preferably on the Elves), retreat and finish rampart with our main hero;P.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 11, 2002 11:43 AM

Well, unless someone thinks Dungeon still has a chance I propose stopping this fight. Dungeon will now have to rely on Rampart to make really big mistakes and I don't think that will happen. Btw. TK's Centaur move is more to be seen as a good trap for Dungeon. Dungeon obviously can't attack the Centaurs with the Dragons.

So I say Rampart has won this one. Anyone disagreeing?

I'm willing to play dungeon in a second fight. I'd propose a more realistic approach. We settle the moves via IM, and then post each round in it's entirety. We could use the a-k 1-15 notation for moving units. Suggested that we edit the first post for each round so we include all resistances, moves and damages in one post.

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 11, 2002 03:58 PM

If you can play online I am willing to play on the rampart side with you. If not we can do it over IM, but it takes more time than you might think. I am still in the third round of my fight with Thunder as castle vs stronghold

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