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| Thread: Behold! Battle of Dragons. Dungeon vs Rampart. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV |
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted March 12, 2002 01:43 AM |
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So I say Rampart has won this one. Anyone disagreeing?
No objection, admit defeat.
Quote:
I'm willing to play dungeon in a second fight. I'd propose a more realistic approach. We settle the moves via IM, and then post each round in it's entirety. We could use the a-k 1-15 notation for moving units. Suggested that we edit the first post for each round so we include all resistances, moves and damages in one post.
Sure like to see that
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Seize The Day.
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zhuge
Hired Hero
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posted March 12, 2002 03:10 AM |
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Edited By: zhuge on 11 Mar 2002
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Throwing in the towel? Why not just send the Blacks in after the Golds after the Golds wait and teleport the Medusas next to the Elves? It won't reverse the situation but it'll do quite substantial damage. 
Anyway, I'm happy we all see it as a foregone conclusion now.
Using good notation habits helps cut down on ambiguity. For example I was not exactly sure where Djive put the Black Dragons in round 4 (row 4, hex 2 and 3), row 4 from below or from above? Thunderknight's subsequent move with Pegasi to be placed at row 2 shows counting rows from above whereas thunder's picture shows Blacks placed below.
With 2-hex creatures, the head of the creature is given the square to move to, for example Unicorns attacking Harpies
WU to I8, X HH...
or in brief
WU I8 X HH...
Enough gripe... I'll go through the moves in detail next and I most heartily invite all present to comment and discuss regarding this. Any criticism should be directed at the move and not the player. I make LOTS of mistakes myself, much more so when I first started playing so let us
focus our thoughts on how best to fight and NOT find fault.
Round 1
I have little or no comment on the wait moves.
1)Grand Elves shoot at Evil Eyes. Comments please?
Edited:
To digress a little, any comments on spellcasting for round 1?
I bring up these points because I find them worthy of discussion. The moves made are not necessarily wrong or inferior in any way.
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted March 12, 2002 06:01 AM |
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A battle is lost, but a war is yet to be won.
Alright seriously, I think instead of "shield", "stoneskin" should be casted on rampart as black dragon was the only uint that can reach rampart in the first round, and dungeon comes with 2 shooters.
I suppose the attack of Elves on Eyes was not too bad though, as probably (most likely) no units would be in range even if Elves would have waited. Hence, better reduced a few shooters before they come back for Elves, which was quite certain.
I think rampart had a rather good advantage in using tactics to position it's troops, such that Elves were quite well protected and rampart could attempt to play defense and relying on Elves to shoot dungeon to death (which actually happened).  Of course, there was the "Inferno" to worry about... but I think rampart was still in a good advantage.
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Seize The Day.
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zhuge
Hired Hero
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posted March 12, 2002 06:54 AM |
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Snogard stated:
I suppose the attack of Elves on Eyes was not too bad though, as probably (most likely) no units would be in range even if Elves would have waited. Hence, better reduced a few shooters before they come back for Elves, which was quite certain.
I agree that the attack was quite warranted. The point I want to make is target selection Vs shooters here should be made using their damage potential (damage/hp ratio after factoring in attack and defense). Unless there is a follow up attack on the Evil Eyes or an all out attack with other units, reducing damage potential should be one of the foremost criteria. Calculations will show that instead of killing 17 Evil Eyes, you can remove 12 Medusa Queens which actually do more damage than the Eyes. While in the above scenario, the difference is not very significant, there are instances where this consideration is quite important, e.g. targeting Titans, Magi or Master Gremlins?
Snogard continued:
I think rampart had a rather good advantage in using tactics to position it's troops, such that Elves were quite well protected and rampart could attempt to play defense and relying on Elves to shoot dungeon to death (which actually happened). Of course, there was the "Inferno" to worry about... but I think rampart was still in a good advantage.
Having Rampart locked up in a defensive position should have spurred Dungeon to use hit and run tactics instead of barging in blindly in round 1. Harpy Hags as I previously mentioned is Dungeon's 3rd 'shooter' when used appropriately and should have been brought to bear on Rampart's defensive formation as early as possible.
Any thoughts from the rest? I'll comment on spells later after I've heard a few more views.
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted March 12, 2002 09:31 AM |
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I agree with you regarding about "which is a better shooter to attack on?", if precise calculation is called for; but I'm not too sure about the hit-and-run tactics of dungeon...
For one, it seems to me that rampart can hit-and-run more efficiently than dungeon, and also rampart needs not be "locked up" in a defense position.
Hope to see more comments.
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Seize The Day.
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sos
Known Hero
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posted March 12, 2002 04:28 PM |
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well, I would wait casting a spell untill its elves turn. If dungeon casts before that I would prolly cast bless. Elves will down one blackie, then silvers and goldies 2 more. So I would go for blackies first. After they are gone rampart can engage one more troop instead of protecting the elves.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted March 12, 2002 05:20 PM |
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So far every battle (thread) has been decided in the first round. Mass Slow instead of Chain Lightning in the first (although I doubt that Wizard wouldn't have any chance to win that fight in the case Chaos Hydras would have been teleported next to Titans right away), Castle casting Forgetfulness (didn't have any hope for victory after that), and now the Scorpicore attack. I can only hope that the next battle of Inferno and Necropolis aren't decided so quickly.
I agree with sos that Bless should be cast in the first round for Rampart. The Shield didn't have much effect in the first round and the Stoneskin is clearly inferior to Bless.
Black Dragons should have blasted the Centaurs and the Dwarwes in the first round instead of the Gold Dragons (Dendroids should have standed still).
As Snogard said, Rampart troops are much better in hit and run tactics than Dungeon. They can be efficiently used to take Dungeon shooters out from the game together with Grand Elves, while Black Dragons can't reach Elves. But Black Dragons are the foremost target for Rampart. As Dungeon has Sacrifice it is vital to kill stacks completely (so they can't be used for Sacrifice).
As for the Tactics advantage, I decided to give it for Ranger even though Overlord has better chances to get it. Why? Only because Rampart can make more use of it (and had a quite interesting deployement IMO). In any case, how would you have deployed the Dungeon forces? Offensive? Not good. Defensive, how?
Armageddon might have been an interesting spell in this battle. I ought to have given it to Overlord.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 12, 2002 07:26 PM |
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Overall the Rampart was granted the best bonuses and skills. It could also have been considered to give Overlord twice the number of mana because of Mana Vortex (Now, overlord paid for this with Intelligence) or more creatures because of the Portal of Summoning.
The basic problem for overlord is that he faces a hit-point disadvantage, and has very few ways of rectifying this. Although, overlord has 3 shooters the Archery and Armorer + the Bless spell advantages of the Rampart hero makes the Grand elves out-shoot all three of them. Sacrifice is a great spell but Ressurrection would be a cheaper and probably better way of getting back HP for the Overlord. A Resurrection with spellpower 7 gives 510 HP, which is about 50% of the HP for the level 1-6 stacks. Sacrifice is also a bit situational. You have to have a suitable stack to Sacrifice.
Armageddon would be a very situational spell. The likely thing is that it would hit the ovelord's troop a lot worse than the rampart troops. (Because Rampart has better resistance values, but also because the Rampart stacks have higher hit point values.) It might have worked, but not if Rampart knows that Dungeon has it. Obviously, Rampart will kill the Blackies first in this case.
Dungeon will have to rely on luck as it is now. To balance it out we could either removes skills. Like:
Resistance for Dungeon (this skill may see use but is unlikely to do be of great benefit, the rampart hero had no mass spells to cast on enemy) and Armorer for Rampart (this was used every time damage waas dealt to rampart troops).
Or give Dungeon the bonus for the Mana Vortex and replace Intelligence with Archery.
I'd also remove the spell Cure for Rampart and instead give them Dispel. As it is now all Mass Spells which Dungeon could cast was easily removed by the rampart hero, giving the rampart hero the ability to outwait the dungeon spell in each round and counter it if necessary. (And this while keeping all beneficial spells in place.) This made spells like Blind, Slow and mass Curse as well as the creature specials of both the Medusa and Scorpicores removable (and in addition providing some hitpoints). Dungeon had a lot more problem handling negative spells and effects.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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zhuge
Hired Hero
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posted March 13, 2002 05:29 AM |
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Edited By: zhuge on 12 Mar 2002
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Ah, me, I forgot about an overview and jumped straight into discussing moves. My fault.
It is clear from the start that Rampart enjoys both a very substantial hp advantage and the lethal combination of Elves + Archery + Bless, easily outgunning Dungeon shooters.
To make any inroads at all, Dungeon must try to exploit any particular Rampart weakness. One of this is the speed gap between Rampart's fast units and its slow ones (Dendroids, Dwarves). Confronting Rampart on it's own turf where the Elves shoot at full damage does not make much sense as this also effectively negates the slowness of the Dwarves, Dendroids.
If Dungeon could somehow force Rampart to leave its defensive position and start charging forward in an opportune moment for Dungeon, there may be a chance to isolate fast units first and inflict considerable damage before the slow units arrive. This is however much easier said than done and it is obvious that Rampart will be loathe to do so as long as it enjoys better damage.
Dungeon shooters are clearly lacking in punch but
have the advantage in hp, no melee penalty with Exp Offense and a special (Medusa). Again this is not easy to exploit, only that Dungeon's ground troops are not committed to a babysitting role and should in this case be deployed more aggressively (but out of the 10 hex range of the Elves). Rampart on the other hand cannot be so free as to expose the Elves. A hit by the full complement of Blacks will roughly halve their numbers and a hit by Scorpicores will also inflict substantial damage.
Deploying fast troops into good positions and capitalizing on any Rampart mistakes is a more satisfactory approach in round 1 for Dungeon.
Of course with tactics on the Overlord's side, troops can be deployed as above immediately, thus saving an entire round and enabling instant offense. Also, Medusas and Eyes can be deployed closer so that they hit anything shielding the Elves while still out of their 10 hex range. This would result in a better ratio, with 4 shooters (Hags included), of which 3 can potentially do full damage in round 1.
As an isolated thought, it is a pity that Dungeon doesn't have Expert Air Shield (only Air Shield), which would slice shooter damage by half and turn the tables considerably. Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to Blacks which would now become the prime target for the Elves.
I fully agree with sos's plan which would be very painful for Dungeon if carried out. As it is, Dungeon needs to wait before countering a Bless spell and there is no guarantee that it will work.
Rampart's fast troops may have slightly better speed to carry hit and runs but the War Unicorn is tied to the defense of the Elves and the Centaurs are a level 1 unit with only speed 8. Undoubtedly Pegs and Golds do considerable damage but Dungeon does not lose out.
with Blacks, Scorps and Hags with Minos (only speed 8), of which 3 comprise of top units and the remaining one has no retaliation.
If Rampart comes for Minos as they did in actual play, Blacks can stay on their side of the field and have 2 shots at the Pegs which together with the Mino's retal would cripple the stack.
Also do not forget Mass Slow which if used at an opportune moment where Rampart has already cast its spell, can also affect the whole hit and run sequence.
I also agree with Djive that Rampart was given a very good selection of spells (Bless, Cure, Resurrection) and faced little problem in this matter. Giving Mass Dispel instead as suggested would probably equalize things more. In fact, I would favour just playing the battle without spells, just to see how much of an advantage, spells were for Rampart.
In spite of all measures, Dungeon still may not win, but the point here is not to decide the winner but to improve play (such as increasing damage/round while conserving more hp with a better position).
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 13, 2002 12:28 PM |
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Air Magic instead of Fire Magic seems a reasonable way of making Dungeon more powerful. Then replace the Fire spells Inferno and Sacrifice with Meteor Shower and Ressurrrection and the combat should be more even. (Meteor Shower will more strongly dissuade Rampart from protecting elves as it does more damage than Inferno does. Armed with this spell I believe Rampart would see a need to attack sooner.)
If I'm not mistaken Dungeon even has spell specialists for both of these spells.
I'm fairly certain that just using the units without spells will see Rampart victorius with a fairly broad margin.
Dragons are about equal.
14 Unicorns are better than 14 Scorpicores.
27 Dendroid Soldiers are better than 21 Minotaur Kings (although in equal numbers the Kings are better.)
45 Silver Pegasi are better than 36 Medusa Queens.
63 Grand Elves are far better than 63 Evil Eyes.
88 Battle Dwarves has a lot more fighting power than 72 Harpy Hags.
154 Troglodytes vs 126 Centaur Captains would be fairly equal. My inclination would be that the Captains are better.
Overlord also has a Ballista which adds some damage.
And the above analysis would probably be the same when taking Archery, Offence and Armorer bonuses into consideration. (Also remember the +2 Defence overweight for Kyrre.)
Rampart troops have a superiority in strength (might) so Dungeon needs to compensate by having better spells (magic).
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted March 13, 2002 05:36 PM |
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Rampart troops and dwellings are most economical of all towns and they have most hitpoints to offer, so it's not nothing unusual that Rampart is superior in might compared to Dungeon. Ranger is also more might oriented hero than what Overlord is.
Dungeon has two resurrection heroes (Alamar and Jeddite) and one hero specializing in Meteor Shower (Deemer). All of them are Warlocks and will lose to every hero in might (their units are little more than mince meat in the hands of good might hero). Warlocks have far from good chances to have Tactics specialty. So I would have deployed the Rampart troops offensively and arranged them so that the Meteor Shower can't hit more than one creature.
Having Armageddon on Dungeon hero is no loss for Dungeon in anyway. Their Black Dragons were targets already, and the Armageddon would be rather situational spell in this battle (it is rather unlikely that Dungeon would want to cast it). But Armageddon replaces quite handily the Town Portal, don't you agree?
I knew that sides weren't balanced when I post the battle. Battles don't actually have to be balanced to be interesting or easy to learn from. This battle could have been balanced guite nicely by taking the Bless and Resurrection from Rampart hero but it's quite useless, however, talking of the setup now that the battle is already fought. Unless people want to start the new one with the same towns?
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zhuge
Hired Hero
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posted March 14, 2002 02:56 AM |
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On a one to one comparison basis for straight fights it is indeed quite obvious that Rampart has the advantage. However, there are some factors Dungeon can take advantage of:
1)Elves which need to be protected necessitate guardians which can easily translate to a 2 unit strike by Blacks (on Centaurs and Dwarves if the Dendroids moved away as in actual play) . This damage is more than 1000 without Shield or Stoneskin and can potentially wear down the defenders.
2)While elves do devastating damage, they don't have have a whole lot of hp. Without Resurrection, 3 Dungeon shooters can take out roughly half or more of the elves in 2 rounds, thus decreasing their threat.
3) If Dungeon can ever force Rampart to reach a situation where their fast troops are crippled and their slow troops are trailing behind, Hags and Dungeon shooters can potentially carry the day. With its reach and the slowness of the Dendroids, Hags Vs Dendroids alone is a win for Hags regardless of hp comparisons.
Of course there is still the hit and run approach to complement this if necessary. These are just a few brief examples, I'm sure with a little further thought others may be able to come up with more and better ideas.
Rampart may still emerge victorious but I feel with less of a margin as compared to the actual fight with spells.
Of the 4 combat oriented skills, Rampart had 3 (Archery, Armorer, Tactics) while Dungeon had 1 (Offense) and Offense was badly affected by giving Expert Shield for Rampart. To be fair, as Rampart got Expert Archery, Dungeon should receive Expert Air Shield.
+2 Defence overweight for Kyrre kicks in every time a strike on Rampart is made. Dungeon however could
not utilize the additional spell power and knowledge so well due to lack of good direct damage spells. Meteor Shower as mentioned would very effectively deter packing up the elves in a defensive pocket.
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 14, 2002 05:07 PM |
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How about this ???
For dungeon
Cast mass slow on kings turn, then eyes + medusa will shoot before elves and kill nearly 20 ~ 25 elves.
Hit & run can be played by both sides but rampart got to protect elves so blackie can hit 2 units + scorp hit one already hit by blackie and then return in next turn.
Play hit & run and play defensively may be better for dungeon. Blind or inferno on elves (ya, I know they got resistance) and let them dispel/cure/resurrect, your main goal is to use up spell points of rampart coz the battle can't be decided in 3 ~ 4 turns if played cautiously.
After rampart run short or maybe run out of spells, start offensive play maybe another option for dungeon. Well, just hindsight for dungeon.
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Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
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zhuge
Hired Hero
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posted March 18, 2002 05:06 AM |
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Hmm... kinda slow going these few days. I've had much work in RL and could not reply promptly. 
The other battle thread doesn't seem to be getting much attention either. Coz Mass Haste was countered by Mass Slow and the battle is decided??
I have few other comments on round 1 other than reiterating that Dungeon's unit placement was vital and to keep out of the 10 hex range of the Elves.
In the following rounds many subsequent moves were forced due to gross mistakes in round 1. Perhaps spending a spell just to get Scorps out of range could be considered with full repositioning of Dungeon forces, but it would probably be too little, too late.
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Slash
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 24, 2002 05:48 PM |
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Edited By: Slash on 24 Mar 2002
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Wow
All i can say that thats a hell of a lot of typing for a made up scenario on a message board. What was the point?
"
I'm willing to play dungeon in a second fight. I'd propose a more realistic approach. We settle the moves via IM, and then post each round in it's entirety. We could use the a-k 1-15 notation for moving units. Suggested that we edit the first post for each round so we include all resistances, moves and damages in one post.
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I know another more realistic approach...HEROES III THE GAME ON THE CD
u know not the message board sim but battle net or the zone. hmmm i could be wrong though
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Two Titans standing
armor shining in the sun
in flew a Blackdragon
then there was one
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted September 04, 2005 01:02 PM |
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can someone who remembers post a picture at the beginning and the end of the first round - or tell me where the creatures were?
i tried to recostruct the fight and it was a whole mess, for example who shielded the elves? why did dwarves defend??
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