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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Behold! Battle of Dragons. Dungeon vs Rampart.
Thread: Behold! Battle of Dragons. Dungeon vs Rampart. This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 02, 2002 12:36 PM
Edited By: Djive on 4 Mar 2002

Spells in effect:
Expert Shield on Rampart units (3 rounds remainining)
Expert Stoneskin on Rampart units (4 rounds remaining)
Expert Shield on Dungeon units (4 rounds remaining)
Expert Stoneskin on Dungeon units (5 rounds remaining)
Expert Bless on Rampart units (5 rounds remaining)

Dungeon Units
6 Black Dragons (Health 190, Att 38, Def 38)
10 Scorpicores (Att 29, Def 33(40), Sh, St)
10 Minotaur Kings (Health 23, Att 28, Def 34, Sh, St)
36 Medusa Queens (Att 23, Def 29, Sh, St)
46 Evil Eyes (Health 5, Att 23, Def 27, Sh, St)
36 Harpy Hags (Health 9, Att 19, Def 25, Sh, St)


Rampart Units
4 Gold Dragons (Health 183, Att 40, Def 42)
14 War Unicorns (Att 28, Def 35(42), Sh, St, Bl)
19 Denroid Soldiers (Health 32, Att 22, Def 33(40), Sh, St, Bl)
5 Silver Pegasi (Health 17, Att 22, Def 31, Sh, St, Bl)
32 Grand Elves (Health 8, Att 22, Def 26, Sh, St, Bl)
88 Battle Dwarwes (Att 20, Def 28(34), Sh, St, Bl)
126 Centaur Captains (Att 19, Def 24(29), Sh, St, Bl)

Until their next action Scorpicores, Battle Dwarves, Dendroid Soldiers, Centaur Captains and War Unicorns have 20% additional defence, the number within parenthesis above.

Creatures Movement Order
Gold Dragons: 16
Black Dragons: 15
Silver Pegasi: 12
Scorpicores: 11 (Bound by Vines)
War Unicorns: 9
Harpy Hags: 9
Centaur Captains: 8
Minotaur Kings: 8
Grand Elves: 7
Evil Eyes: 7
Medusa Queens: 6
Battle Dwarwes: 5
Dendroid Soldiers: 4
Ballista

The image is quite small in size this time (only a little more than 100kB). Should reduce loading times a bit. (New pic, positions hopefully correct in this one.)


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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2002 08:47 PM
Edited By: sos on 4 Mar 2002

goldies attack minos and blackies from east doing:
4 * 45 * 1.3 (A/D) * 0.7 (shield) = 164 damage to minos and
4 * 45 * 1.1 (A/D) = 198 damage to blackies.

7 MK remain, top with 9 health and 5 blackies (292 health).

MK retaliate doing 7 * 16 * 0.7 (A/D) * 1.3 (offense) * 0.85 (armorer) = 87 damage.

4 goldies remain, top with 96 health.

blackies are next.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 05, 2002 03:11 AM

!Black Dragons move to the other side of the battle-field. (Not much use in attacking, all creature have defended and have high defences. Need to get them out of range from elves. Row 4, hex 2 and 3.)!

!Silver Pegasi are next!
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 04:08 AM

Seems pegasus face its last move

Well, pegasus maybe down this round no
matter how unless cast resurrection.
But leave if for elves.

Hags + MK are enough for this and other
rampart troops can't help coz they got
to protect elves for one more turn. Well,
maybe hags will go for goldie while MK may
not.

Good move for blackie. Sometimes, defense
is the best offense.

Ok, here comes another dump move
Pegasus moves to row 2, hex 3 &4 counted
from east i.e. leave one hex space between
pegasus and dwarves and this is reserved for
kings.

Ya, I know that blackie can have a breath attack
on both pegasus and unicorn.

Next is scorp. Will dungeon cast dispel ????


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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 05, 2002 05:24 AM

and what was wrong with pegasi killing one more minotaur with no retaliation? Instead they move so blackies can have double attack next turn with (almost) no retaliation?

I see what is happening now. Thundernight is a dungeon lover trying desparetely to save dungeon by making these moves lol

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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 05:33 AM
Edited By: thunderknight on 4 Mar 2002

You got me, sos.
Ya, I'm with Dungeon and actually pegasus
is a "spy unit" who always got some dumb
move.

So, come on, my fellow dungeon players, go
get those lowly rampart wimps down.

Edited: ok, no more kidding.
Actually there is nothing wrong to kill one more MK, but it will leave pegasus in a vulnerable position and died after moves of hags and kings while rampart can't do anything about it.

As for blackie two hex attack, let's see whether it will happen or not.

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 05, 2002 05:54 AM

I wish I would of seen the map earlier so with only reading the Gold dragon attack which was good I think Fortress defanately has the upper hand.
You need to start moving the unicorns & centaurs out maybe with haste on the unicorns & have the centaurs attack the black dragon & maybe unicorns attack those scorpicores.
As long as your out of range i'm not worried about the shooters till later & you might as well move out those dwarfs too because if doungeon really wanted they can attack those elvees first. & the other creatures procting the elves might as well attack since they are in range.
Elves should attack the Scorpicores & the dendroids can attack them too.
But I think more casualties could of been worst for the Doungeon if you would of used the three creatures guarding the elves more wisely.
AFter this round with this advice hopefully there should be no more Minataurs,1-2 Black dragons & DEFANATELY no more Scorpicores DDDD:

Ok now I will read what you did
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 05, 2002 06:00 AM

What I meant about attacking the elves anytime meant it would be dumb for them to lets say black dragons go for them, they will get creamed by the three guardians & if the harpy tries to get in range their dead, Minataurs are dead too & the scorpicores cant move.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 06:08 AM

Ya, I partly agree with you. Actually I myself
also have the plan to have an all-out attack for
rampart since it will give more tactic flexibility.

However, after a second thought, it may not be a good
idea. You can see from previous posts that the combined
damage from 3 dungeon shooters roughly 200 ~ 300. How
many damage can elves do ??? 500 !!! If we resurrect
some elves back.....hehehehe

Well, that will keep 3 rampart units immovable or can
only move in restricted areas. But merely defense is
enough. Let elves shoot 1 ~ 2 turns, victory goes to
rampart. For dungeon to win, you got to have some
good moves. As for rampart, it still not loses even
with those dump moves by me.

Come on, dungeon players, show us what you have.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 05, 2002 06:14 AM

Well look at the the casualties in comparison if you caste haste on you unicorns they can attack the medusas & possibly get an morale.
& your elves can shoot the beholders in that case & harpys are worthless & scorpicores cant move so maybe dwarfs which I think have 5 hexas can walk up to attack the scorpicores & then the dendroids.
I think moving those Silvers was a hugh mistake you could of attacked the Minataurs then had the centaurs attack after that.

Nevver underestimate the unicorn possible blindness & Morale too.
Hopefully they wont get stoned DDDD:
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Snogard
Snogard


Known Hero
customised
posted March 05, 2002 06:20 AM

The situation doesn't look good, even with one spy unit.  We may need another one, Thunderknight

By the way, what's the SP standing for each side?
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 06:35 AM

After the third thought

I find myself making another mistake.
Again, another dump move for pegasus.
Well, my original intention was to
create a deadly trap which kings and
blackie will not dare to touch pegasus.
Not a very good move, it seems. But pegasus
won't do much damage anyway.

Actually, we got several options here.
1) play defensively, let elves shoot for
more turns.

2). all-out attack mode triggered. Since blackie
already move, no need to worry about it.

I don't want to go into details about my plan coz
it's just not very good and may spoil the fun.
Anyway, let's finish the battle soon coz prolong battle
is no good for rampart due to spell disadvantage.

Btw, no haste spell for both sides and no morale and
luck factors in this battle.

Let's see whether we will got some surprise in scorp turn.
Come on, Djive or any other dungeon players. I'm with you......
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 05, 2002 09:41 AM
Edited By: Djive on 5 Mar 2002

Overlord casts Inferno, centered on the empty hex before the dwarves!!

Spell does 150 base damage.

Spell may now hit War Unicorns (80%), Battle Dwarves (20%), Grand Elves (60%), Centaur Captains (80%) and Silver Pegasi (60%).

(Chance of taking damage (not resisting) varies between 20 and 80%.)

Thunder, can you sort out the resistances. I'm playing a bit too actively for doing my own spell. (Will take care of it this evening if you haven't replied by then.)

Still turn of Scorpicores, and I recommend defending.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 10:23 AM

Well, good. Casting inferno is not bad coz
you won't have chance to hit so many units
in later rounds. You can even hit pegasus
due to my dumb move.

Ooop, I forget I'm with rampart.

In fact, I personally think mass dispel
maybe also good coz you can now free scorp
from dendroid binding as well as removing bless
from rampart.

Now, rampart can do some resurrection works.
Come on, move that scorp, so that we can trigger
the all-out attack for rampart. I suggest wait with
unicorn for later attack to medusa (no need for haste
to reach them.) Centaur can go for MK for free attack
while still outside 10 hex range of eyes. Resurrected
elves can shoot scorp or anything worthwhile. Dwarves
wait, dendroid attack scorp, then dwarves attack scorp
again for free. After this, we will see kings and scorp
crippled if not died. Hags should move out of range, otherwise, elves will kill them in one attack.

Should blackie go after elves right away next turn, we can gang on it, if not, we can reform the protective shield
for elves or maybe play more aggressively and go after those
shooters. Let's decide the battle in the following 2~3 rounds before using up all the spell points.

It's one of the best chance for rampart to attack. After all, my deliberate dumb move of pegasus did have some reward.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 05, 2002 11:21 AM

Quote:

In fact, I personally think mass dispel
maybe also good coz you can now free scorp
from dendroid binding as well as removing bless
from rampart.



I may be wrong but I don't think Dungeon has Water Magic, so all that can be dispelled are effects on one single units of our own. So no Mass Dispel. Also I'm hesistant if Mass Dispel can remove binding, I believe Cure is needed for that.

My advice for the continued battle for Dungeon is defending with Scorpicores and retreating (out of range from Grand elves) with Minotaur Kings. This way the only unit the Elves can hit (without range penalty) are the Scorpicores who have a good defence of 40 due to defending.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 02:01 PM

Very good suggestion, Djive.
But maybe it's too late.

Ya, it's right Dungeon can't mass dispel.
Well, before retreating of kings, centaur can
hit them and cripple them. (well, if I've not
make that dump move of pegasus AGAIN, maybe kings
will be dead this turn.) Elves + dendroid + dwarves
can handle scorp. Unicorn can go for medusa after
waiting and then go for the other 2 shooters or back
to get blackie depend on situation.

Those dump moves of pegasus are "genuine" dump moves
and they have the function to "lock" up the Dungeon
moves (since you can make a reasonable guess on their
moves in response to my dump moves. )

Your casting of inferno is one thing I fear most coz
even it can only hit 2 units, the damage is already
greater than those inflicted by 3 shooters combined.

Anyway, wait dungeon moves and outcome of inferno.
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zhuge
zhuge


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 02:58 PM

First of all, a tiny amendment. A/D for the Mino's retal on Golds should be 0.65 instead of 0.7. Perhaps the Ranger's added 2 Defence over Overlord's Attack was overlooked. Mino's will do 80 damage instead of 87, leaving 4 Golds, 103hp left instead of 4 Golds, 96hp left.

Quoting from old discussions by Re-Animator:
***********************************************************
Ok this is too difficult. Basically this guy wanted to know if Magic Resistance is additive or if a separate check is made for each factor (Resistance skill check, then magic items, then natural resistance, etc...). Well, magic resistance is additive with one exception.

I'll use the example with Battle Dwarves that he was talking about.

Battle Dwarves have 40% MR + 20% Expert Resistance + 30% magic items = 90% resistance

However he also stated that they were standing next to the Unicorns which have a 20% aura

The Unicorns resistance aura is NOT additive however - it is a separate check, so in this case the Dwarves would have a total resistance of (100% - (10% (chance of overcoming MR) * 80% (chance of overcoming Unicorns aura)) = 92%.

This can be checked by using Thorgrim as your hero and adjusting his level so that the dwarves have 100% MR (in which case when opp tries to cast a spell it says no one will be affected), slightly less than 100% (when you can cast the spell, but will almost certainly not affect the dwarves), and slightly less than 100% + standing next to Unicorns (you can still cast but will have even less chance of affecting them).

Finally, the Orb of Vulnerability completely wipes away any magic resistance your character and/or stacks have - with one exception (of course) standing next to Unicorns will still give you that 20% aura bonus. (I believe i may have too much time on my hands)
***********************************************************

There were a few others who have counterchecked this later.
Using the above principles with 3 factors involved: Expert Resistance (20%), Aura of War Unicorn (20%), Battle Dwarves natural resistance (40%)
War Unicorns        1-0.8 20% resistance
Centaur Captains 1-0.8 20% resistance
Silver Pegasi   1-(0.8*0.8)     36% resistance
Grand Elves 1-(0.8*0.8) 36% resistance
Battle Dwarves 1-(0.4*0.8) 68% resistance

The Golds move is quite logical. The Blacks move though forfeiting damage for this round is a necessary evil in view of the situation. The logic behind the Pegs move is  way too deep for a simple tactician like me to comprehend.

While the Battle Dwarves will probably resist the spell, there is a good chance that Inferno will hit the rest or at least 3 out of these 4.

Dungeon starts with 70 spell points. They need an extra 2 spell points per spell with Pegasi on the battlefield.
Round 1: Expert Shield      6
Round 2: Expert Stoneskin   6
Round 3: Expert Sacrifice  22
Round 4: Expert Inferno    14
Total used                 48
Still enough for 1 more Sacrifice next round if needed.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 05, 2002 03:17 PM

I believe I'll just cast the spell on the units and see who resists the first time if it's left up to me. I'd also wonder if two-hex units need to resist twice if both body hexes are within the affected area. (You never know aboiut such things, and the only way to find that out would probably be very extensive testing.)

If i recall correctly Dungeon has expert intelligence, thus 140 spellpoints. They are going to be needed if dungeon is to have any chance in the long run.
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zhuge
zhuge


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 03:39 PM

Djive corrected:
If i recall correctly Dungeon has expert intelligence, thus 140 spellpoints. They are going to be needed if dungeon is to have any chance in the long run.

Yes, a gross oversight on my part for not reading the initial skills in full. Thanks for the correction.

Djive stated:
I believe I'll just cast the spell on the units and see who resists the first time if it's left up to me. I'd also wonder if two-hex units need to resist twice if both body hexes are within the affected area. (You never know aboiut such things, and the only way to find that out would probably be very extensive testing.)

Fair enough. Reasonable doubts. I also feel that spells from Faerie Dragons tend to be resisted less often but that is of course another matter.
I await the results of the Inferno.


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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 05:00 PM

Ya, spell is the factor why I insist all-out
attack instead of shielding elves forever tactic.

It seems rampart hero won't have many spell points
to spend for say another round of resurrection.
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