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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: About Politics: Socialism
Thread: About Politics: Socialism [ This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9) 10 11 12 ]
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 20, 2009 05:16 PM

Nah.
Look to Britain, for example.
Moreover, insurance is nothing else as a gambling casino with always changing chances. The idea is fundamentally capitalist

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 20, 2009 05:23 PM

The problem with insurance is that it isn't like a gambling casino. When you win at a casino, the other players aren't the ones who pay you. Plus, unless you cheat, you don't have more information than the casino operator. Also, no one can depend on winning at the casino - but, as people find out more about their long-term health, they can "win" at insurance - even though this win would be temporary.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 20, 2009 05:29 PM

Quote:
When you win at a casino, the other players aren't the ones who pay you.*

*Unless you're playing poker.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted April 20, 2009 05:52 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 17:53, 20 Apr 2009.

Quote:
You just contradicted yourself. First you're saying that it's doing poorly, and then you say that it's making money - so, obviously, somebody likes it.
LOL.
Typical capitalist mentality though. You think that's what makes people like something? Because they buy it? Or because it costs big bucks? You have such a simple, non-realistic logic in this area. You also think that stuff that costs more is always "better" (whatever that means)?

People play it, they complain.
People buy it, they complain.

People play NS1, they don't complain as much.

Not to mention, they could've just bought it in anticipation of the devs actually caring for the game instead of money. I'm not sure if that's the case.

But however, this isn't about socialism though, it's anti-capitalism (just enumerating waste and weaknesses in some mentality and what it leads to), so probably not very appropriate for this thread.

Quote:
Quote:
When you win at a casino, the other players aren't the ones who pay you.*

*Unless you're playing poker.
Or Blackjack, or just about any other game...
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 20, 2009 06:32 PM
Edited by DagothGares at 18:33, 20 Apr 2009.

Sorry, father, but we're just doing what hegel said we'd do, but of course since HEGEL IS WRONG, we'll be running into circles, until we finished one complete cycle of all possible arguments. By that point we should have realised two things:

1) In this situation there is no right and wrong choice. it just depends on what you want your society to look like (neithe will be utopian, nor will they be dystopian)
2) That Hegel was right, if they even adjusted their stance on EVEN ONE issue, because then there's Aufhebung and I can't sound like a snob anymore...

EDIT: By the end of the day, we're all irrational beings anyway and w'll just go play outside in the rain.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 20, 2009 08:14 PM

TheDeath:
Quote:
You think that's what makes people like something? Because they buy it?
No, it's the other way around - they buy it because they like it.

Father:
Quote:
Do you guys ever get tired of running around in circles with each other? I mean really?
Yes, of course. But while there are disagreements, there will be discussion.

Quote:
Instead of trying to defend and imperfect form of government, why not try to develop ideas for a perfect form? Lets say this.... You each choose one or two things you like most about your government types then stick them together....or...throw the whole damn box out and come up with something new?
Because I dislike the vast majority of what TheDeath and JJ suggest, and what I like of theirs, I advocate anyway.

Dagoth:
Hegel? How can you even read him?
In fact, most 18th and 19th century philosophers are unreadable.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 21, 2009 01:46 AM

No, but I know his logic of theis, anti-thesis and aufhebung and I tend to use it as much as I can to sound smart
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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 21, 2009 01:53 AM

I must say that I agree with Father much You'd better discuss the ideologies and why you like/Don't like them, instead of quoting the silliest littlest things.

On topic, I would like to state that I do NOT vote for the Socialists at all. The Flemish Socialist Party (S.P.A) has done quite a few things that I cannot tolerate from any serious political party. I can elaborate on this, if the readers would like me to. (though expect an (arguemented) rant in that case )

[I'm not a true scholar. I do not study facts or read scientific/Political info before engaging into these discussions. My arguements come from my own Common Sense (as Senseless it sometimes may be) and from my own experiences. Though biased, they are quite accurate. It's the reader's option to take the serious or not.]
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 21, 2009 01:56 AM

Well, I am always interested in Belgian politics (and how come you're not a scholar? didn't you do pol and soc?)
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 21, 2009 02:11 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 02:14, 21 Apr 2009.

Quote:
The problem with insurance is that it isn't like a gambling casino. When you win at a casino, the other players aren't the ones who pay you. Plus, unless you cheat, you don't have more information than the casino operator. Also, no one can depend on winning at the casino - but, as people find out more about their long-term health, they can "win" at insurance - even though this win would be temporary.


Of course the other players are paying you. If a casino operates with a 2% profit margin, from each million bucks in gambling money placed on any of their tables they will collect 20.000 - these 20.000 are LOST by other players AND if someone wins them, they win them from the others, ultimately. There is absolutely no difference there.
For the company there is no risk either - and here's the difference to the casino. The chances for the casino are a mathematical certainty, the chances for the insurance are calculated anew each year, which would be like a casino, checking all the numbers that came up on their roulette tables: 370.000 times the ball rolled, so every number should have come up 10.000 times which would be a 36:1 chance for the casino. However, it shows that 1 was rolled only 9700 times, so they adjust the rate to 37:1.

That's how an insurance operates.

Now note, that with THIS kind of operation, ultimately it doesn't matter if there is cheating THEY CAN'T DETECT - if at one table there's something wrong and certain numbers will come up a lot more often it will show up in the adjusted  payment quotas.

Now, you have to understand, that there is no cheating the way you think there is in health insurance. If someone knows something negative about his or her health and goes ahead and makes a health insurance, the insurance has the option to ask for an examination; for the name of your doctor and have a chat with him; for all kinds of things, actually. Usually, however, they just ask you, and if you say everything is fine, but it isn't, your contract will involve something like a cap on certain payments in year 1, another cap in year 2 and yet another cap in year 3. Should they have to pay real money for you shortly after you made the insurance, you can bet your life on it that they will investigate the case, and should they find something you have a problem.

It's not the insurance (or gambling) that is the problem here. It's the fact, that there is a third and a fourth side there and people pay a lot of money that they are basically reserving for those sides.

If there is a bootom line here, than it's the fact that you cannot combine socialist structures (and a general health insurance is something like a socialist construct since it socializes the costs for health, no matter the health of the individual) with capitalist or profit oriented workings. The latter will always find openings and gaps in the construct of the first to sabotage.

And to have even something for Father, and to go on with it, not driving in circles, a simple deduction is following, the truth of it should be pretty obvious when looking at things:

If you socialize the COSTS of something, you have to socialize the PROFITS mady by this as well.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 21, 2009 08:27 AM

JJ:
Quote:
If someone knows something negative about his or her health and goes ahead and makes a health insurance, the insurance has the option to ask for an examination; for the name of your doctor and have a chat with him; for all kinds of things, actually. Usually, however, they just ask you, and if you say everything is fine, but it isn't, your contract will involve something like a cap
Usually, insurance works the other way around - there's a deductible, but no cap. Anyway, people who are more likely to get sick (say, they have a family history of something) buy more insurance, and people less likely to get sick buy less. Sounds fine so far? Well, it isn't. The insurance companies' costs increase, therefore they have to raise premiums. Then the least sick of the sick opt out - and costs increase again.
And with the advent of genetic sequencing, this is only going to get worse.
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angelito
angelito

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proud father of a princess
posted April 21, 2009 08:41 AM

Quote:
When you win at a casino, the other players aren't the ones who pay you.*
Lol....and where do you think does the money come from you win at ANY game in a casino?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 21, 2009 08:53 AM

Well, they don't pay you quite as directly.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 21, 2009 09:22 AM

Quote:

Usually, insurance works the other way around - there's a deductible, but no cap. Anyway, people who are more likely to get sick (say, they have a family history of something) buy more insurance, and people less likely to get sick buy less. Sounds fine so far? Well, it isn't. The insurance companies' costs increase, therefore they have to raise premiums. Then the least sick of the sick opt out - and costs increase again.
And with the advent of genetic sequencing, this is only going to get worse.


No. If it's a VOLUNTARY insurance the deductible is in addition. The deductible is the same as with a full car insurance - they just don't want you to go to the doctor for every small pain. (If we mean the same thing.) In addition to that, certain areas are limited within the first or the first two years, depending on country and insurance and of course how far-reaching the checks are.

If there is an OBLIGATORY health insurance, though, such a regulation makes no sense, since it's obligatory anyway - you'll be forced to enter, no matter what, and there your knowledge about your health is unimportant.

Which is what sozializing of the costs of health is obviously all about - the alternative is, that a poor guy will die since he cannot afford expensive care, which isn't all too positive for the social peace: imagine people don't get a drug or medicine they need to survive because they cannot pay it...

Anaway, as I said, if you socialize the costs, you must socialize the profits as well -

which is actually one of the things that is wrong with the health insurance system specifically and with our economy in general.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 21, 2009 09:23 AM

Quote:
If there is an OBLIGATORY health insurance, though, such a regulation makes no sense, since it's obligatory anyway - you'll be forced to enter, no matter what, and there your knowledge about your health is unimportant.
That's the advantage of obligatory insurance.
The disadvantage is that it's, you know, obligatory.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 21, 2009 10:08 AM

Lots of things are obligatory - school, for example. Death. Breathing, taxes... So what?

After all, you don't KNOW the future, do you? Accidents can happen, you may get a virus, not everything is in your genes, life happens as well.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 21, 2009 04:37 PM

Quote:
Lots of things are obligatory - school, for example. Death. Breathing, taxes... So what?
So - it's not a good thing!

Quote:
After all, you don't KNOW the future, do you? Accidents can happen, you may get a virus, not everything is in your genes, life happens as well.
That's true, but foreknowledge would have quite a sizable impact on how much insurance people would buy.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 21, 2009 05:31 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Lots of things are obligatory - school, for example. Death. Breathing, taxes... So what?
So - it's not a good thing!
What do you mean, it's not a good thing? A billion people is starving, dozens of millions are dying because of that, THAT is not a good thing. School is obligatory - not a good thing? Are you kidding?
Quote:

Quote:
After all, you don't KNOW the future, do you? Accidents can happen, you may get a virus, not everything is in your genes, life happens as well.
That's true, but foreknowledge would have quite a sizable impact on how much insurance people would buy.

Ah, come on, that stuff is fortune-telling on a pseudo-scientific basis.
In Germany decisions already have been made that the genetic path won't be trodden by insurances in any way. It would be too much speculation - not to mention that it costs money.

If people are clever they won't make those tests at all until there are cures for everything, otherwise you'll just ruin your life. No one wants to know with 20, what kind of cancer they may get between 50 and 75, that's just dumb. Inhuman as well.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 21, 2009 06:58 PM

Quote:
A billion people is starving, dozens of millions are dying because of that, THAT is not a good thing. School is obligatory - not a good thing? Are you kidding?
Obviously, a billion people starving is worse, and school should be obligatory up to a certain age - but coercion of ADULTS is most certainly a bad thing.

Quote:
In Germany decisions already have been made that the genetic path won't be trodden by insurances in any way.
Well, in Germany, you have government health care, so they can do that because neither people nor insurance companies can opt out. Wouldn't work with the US's current system, though. That is, I admit, one advantage your system has.

Quote:
No one wants to know with 20, what kind of cancer they may get between 50 and 75, that's just dumb. Inhuman as well.
A rational person would want to know. He would then be more careful, get early screening, etc - and be more likely to survive. It's only the irrational people that would run around like chickens with their heads cut off and scream, "OMG OMG I'M GONNA DIE!!!"
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Baklava
Baklava


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posted April 21, 2009 07:24 PM

Quote:
school should be obligatory up to a certain age - but coercion of ADULTS is most certainly a bad thing.

So technically coercion of a 17 year old's alright while coercion of an 18 year old is horrible.
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