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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy vs champions
Thread: Academy vs champions
Snooze
Snooze

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2009 01:49 AM

Academy vs champions

Hi!

Me and two friends play alot of hot seat games and i could use some help with strategies.
The thing is that one of the friends always goes for haven and training of champions. Since rushing is banned (we want the huge fights at the end) he seems impossible to beat. At about month 3, when we usually start clashing, he has gotten such a huge stack of champions (even with the 20 per week limit) that he can kill any stack in just one blow. I've failed several times with inferno and dungeon and now im gonna try with academy.
What im looking for are strategies for academy to counter this haven tacitc. Am I wasting my time here or is it possible to do?

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted April 13, 2009 01:58 AM

Well, I am not a big heroes player (though, you'll find many veterans here who can give decent advice, don't worry), but haven is one of the strongest late game players and well, the biggest maps (according to the best player I know) shouldn't take more than six weeks to clear, so you've got crazy late game, anyway, where haven's bonus becomes nearly unbearable

Personally, I'd go for dark magic. Haven may counter it, but if you frenzy or hypnotize his champions fast enough (be sure to get swift mind), than they'll destroy their own ranks before they know what hit 'em. Other than that, I'm afraid I can't help you... Also, my advice possibly sucks, because maybe academy doesn't have acces to high level-dark magic...

Yeah, my advice is to not listen to my advice
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted April 13, 2009 03:20 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 03:26, 13 Apr 2009.

Well you’re Academy so you can basically do whatever you want. Puppet them. Blind them until you can focus solely on them. Atomize them with nonstop destructive damage (preferably deep freeze to kill their initiative) Summon a Phoenix and try to use it to absorb the counter attacks while your army beats on it. Divine Vengeance them after they’ve taken down a ton of your units. Charge them with your gremlins in melee and unleash the full fury of the tier 1 lizards.

Champions are especially dangerous with Vampirism or Magic Immunity. With Vampirism you can always blast them apart with destructive. Magic Immunity they’re obviously immune to your stuff so Summoning would be best against them. But the good part of Magic Immunity is that their buffs will be canceled so they’ll only be very powerful instead of horrifically powerful.

Aside from spells, general rules for fighting champions:

A) If possible, surround them so they can’t move and get a charge bonus to attack.
B) Avoid their counterattacks as much as possible. If the champs are magic immune, puppet a different stack and try to use them to absorb the counterattack. Or use a Phoenix/Elemental/Phantom. Or use an unimportant stack that’s preferably already badly injured. If they have vampirism, try to use your golems so they can’t life drain.

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Snooze
Snooze

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2009 10:20 AM

Thx for the replies guys. Im gonna try to use your advice, i guess it comes down to if im a good enough player or not ^^ But anyway, its nice to hear that it atleast is possible =)
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 13, 2009 10:41 AM

Haven is a powerful late game faction, so the no rush rule is very helpful to them.  The good thing about academy is that late game they should be able to make some killer mini-arties.  Pump up your creatures initiative, hope for a couple init artifacts.  Perhaps try summoning and sorcery, with perhaps Nur or J (sorry forget how to spell her name).  Pheonix+Arcane Armor can really be a pain..even if spellpower is kinda low.  But yeah frenzy is a much better choice if you can get it off fast.  Champions can be kinda easy to block with arcane crystals or such also depending on the field.

My suggestion would be to perhaps go with some other great late game factions.  Sylvan + Arcane Archers + Champions as favored enemies can just cause a LOT of pain.  If you can make them attack you in your castle, champions are limited and can be wittled down to manageble size before they get to melee.

Fortress is another good choice.  Especially with the dragons fire shield.  Again try to get them to attack you in your castle to really even things up.

Stronghold.  Those trappers can be a real pain for a large creature like the champions.  Doesn't matter if they attack you in your castle or not..but it helps.

Haven late game is by no stretch a pushover, but if they have a lot of champions in one stack you actually can have a better chance.  Because anything that limits/delays/or turns that stack against your opponit helps you much more.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 13, 2009 12:30 PM

I'd avoid destructive because the moment magical immunity comes into play the game is over. Summoning I am not so sure either, I don't think a phoenix will do much against a horde or throng of paladins though a blade barrier or phantom forces on titans - assuming you were lucky enough to keep them out of reach from champions. But light is a must if you want to lessen the impact archangels and imperials can have in the battle. It is imperative that no other units than champions reach you in one turn. As for champions they can be blocked by elemental gargoyles, with init artie they almost always play first.

The worst thing that could happen to you is mass deflect missile so be prepared for the possibility that your shooters are rendered useless. In that case mass cleansing can be lovely, or cleansing from archmages. Crossbowmen will also be a pain so it's better to have a backup plan again them as well, a simple crystal or barrier won't keep them inactive for long and you can bet they will be guarded by squires so they'll receive half ranged damage.
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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2009 02:49 AM
Edited by ebbafan at 03:05, 14 Apr 2009.

end of 3 months is still manageable, though difficult.
let's focus on the champion stack, which is the key problem here:

the two worst spells, as someone mentioned before are vampirism and magical immunity

vampirism is dispellable though, and also has a duration

magical immunity, on the other hand, is not cancellable and lasts indefinitely. any knight worth his salt will get swift mind and cast this on his champions ASAP if  he has a large number of them. (really nasty, actually)

so what can you do? you can try to keep counterspelling his knight, but more than likely even with expert sorcery, the champions/paladins will still have some free reign, not to mention that the inquisitors/zealots get in the way with their castings.

the other alternative is to build up super initiative and defense arties for your shooters and use summoning/MOTW to create many blade barriers to impede their movement.

the third choice is to mentor a demon lord hero and get teleport assault for the titans. (also try to get empathy) teleport assault evades griffins, allows you to position titans favorably, and combined with the high initiative/defense/etc. arties  and high attack of the demon lord can hurt the champions

as for the rest of the army: as elvin said, stormwind is good vs. angels/griffins. if the inquisitors/zealots are next to the marksmen, puppet them; this negates two shooters in one go.

also try to appeal to your opponent's honor: tell them that he should let you fight from inside the castle because of the huge champion advantage! this will give you a few extra turns to do something

edit:btw if you puppet the zealots, they can potentially purge even magical immunity from the champions

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 14, 2009 10:03 AM

Counterspell vs knight is a bad bad idea. Mentoring a demonlord also seems a bad plan, has pathetic defense so the knight will own your hide in no time. But if you can mentor a knight or a ranger, now that would be nice. First you build mini arties with wizard, then transfer army to the knight that should have visited the witch huts he wants first. If you have a 30 lvl wizard and visit a few huts the mentored knight should be around 28 or so level so you don't miss much. Teleport assaulting around is fun but if you are charged first it won't do you much good.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 14, 2009 10:27 AM

Limiting the champions movement if possible is the most sound strategy.  That is one of the reasons I suggested summoning.  Destructive may not do enough (with the exception of maybe deep freeze) damage to bother a rather large stack...dark can be blocked by magical immunity.  Which leaves Light..but since you are asking about academy, you can have both (or actually 3, maybe even 4 if you are brave).

Could use modified hit and run tactics if you get mentoring on your main.  Swift mind + Destruction + Sorcery with some luck (no not the skill, luck with the ATB bar) and you might be able to wittle them down.  However, barring that, placing obsticles in their path seems the best bet.  If it is phantom forces (to soak up retaliations) or a pheonix (same), or some other conjured obsticle so be it.  The object is to cause them to waste attacks and retals against anything OTHER then your original creature stacks, or to make them unable to hit your original stacks on the first charge.

Behind castle gates works if it is possible.  As for light spells, Mass Haste (on creatures with init mini-arties this can rule), Mass Endurance, (cut that damage down a LITTLE at least), and such can help a lot.

Oh and think about going the Defense skill.  I forget if Academy can get Preperation, but that could help.  If not just go for as much reduced damage as you can.  A stack of creatures that do 1000 damage is not quite as scary when it does only 850..though Academy is not the best town to get this skill with.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 14, 2009 11:43 AM

Necro set is a blessing
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Snooze
Snooze

Tavern Dweller
posted April 14, 2009 11:45 AM

about choosing all 4 magic schools, is this wise? Because if it is I would love to try it, I love the magic part of the game alot more than the might one. Which 5 skills would you say are the best for academy, and if I do choose all 4 magic schools, what should I give up?

Again, thx for all the help!
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 14, 2009 12:02 PM

Don't try it. Maybe 2-3 if you want to rush - read week 2-3 - but otherwise it's a waste of skills.
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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2009 04:11 PM

"Counterspell vs knight is a bad bad idea." not true under the right circumstances, though there are many minute complications.

"Mentoring a demonlord also seems a bad plan, has pathetic defense so the knight will own your hide in no time." with the right barriers, your goal is to counter evade and dish out powerful offensive punches as your best defense.

"But if you can mentor a knight or a ranger, now that would be nice."
normally this is a good plan(i've done this numerous times), but under this particular circumstance, its quite stupid and useless, poorly thought out.

"Teleport assaulting around is fun but if you are charged first it won't do you much good." unless you don't know what you are doing, you will know pretty much where your opponent positions his champions. here's another reason to use a demonlord: Nebiros.

still, actually if the haven player is smart, the odds of beating him are quite low.

one last tactic is to figure out which terrains are useful for fighting him at. i once defeated a haven player with a HUGE army because i lured him to a battlefield with ridiculous barriers, like a castle that could not be destroyed.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 14, 2009 05:38 PM
Edited by Elvin at 17:41, 14 Apr 2009.

I suggest that you try those things in toh and see what happens.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 15, 2009 06:42 AM

Having 4 magic schools is very risky, that is why I said 'if you are brave' .  3 not as risky, but not sure of its viability in a late game.  In this particular match I would consider going Enlightenment (especially if you can get it early), Defense, Summoning, Destruction (master of ice + deep freeze or go risky with Master of storms and lightning/chain lightning to stun).  Luck (you need to prey for a lot of double damage strikes)..and I have no idea for the final skill.  Maybe attack?  Logistics?  Elvin would have a good idea for the final skill.  Maybe Havez and War Machines?  
Sorcery?...

Anyhow.  If you get swift mind and are feeling lucky, switch Destruction with dark and Frenzy!  Regardless of skill set, however, you are gonna need some luck, some amazing mini-arties, and to choose the battlefield.

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