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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 29, 2012 03:36 PM |
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It's in the OU (top) tier. Easily the 2nd best starter (after uber Blaziken).
Why? Chlorophyll power.
explanation of why he's so good is here.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 29, 2012 03:37 PM |
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Dreamworld ability: Chlorophyll
Put venusaur on a fire-team to deal with water-types and you're golden.
Hidden power (fire), solarbeam, growth ... hell, in Gen5 he became BEAST 
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 29, 2012 05:04 PM |
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Haven't played the newest gen, the ones before that sucked so bad it discouraged me from all future ones.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 29, 2012 05:16 PM |
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Well, indeed the previous gens Venusaur wasn't the hottest.
He got stronger with each generation until his peak at current one 
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2012 06:13 PM |
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In Gen 2, Venusaur was the best bet for leech seed + sub. (gen I tm) + protect/detect + anti-steel/grass move or just sleep powder.
Of course that's either assuming a mean look has been set up or there's no change rule (apart from baton pass/roar/whirlwind).
In gen I, bulbasaur is a good starter because he can easily handle the first 3 gyms which are rock, water and electric. Also he'd be an excellent choice for the fourth gym which is grass, iIRC.
It should leave plenty of time to get something like starmie or slowbro to deal with the 6th gym and beyond.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 30, 2012 10:56 AM |
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Bubasaur would be a decent start against the first gyms indeed...except he doesn't get any grass damage moves before the first gym because he gets leech seed before whine whip so he's toast against Brock. And when you finally do get whine whip it only has 10 pp so it sucks when you need to battle your way to other towns. You need to wait to beat celadon gym to get a mega drain and use two slots for grass moves or wait till level 30 to learn razor leaf. And you have to sacrifice a TM to get a decent normal move.
And what is up with solarbeam at level 65 anyway? 
Compare to squirtle getting bubble as the first move, he can rush brock and due to the high pp, he can just breeze through to other towns, he also gets water gun really fast, 14? and that also has high PP. He also gets bite at 24 to replace tackle so you don't necessarily have to sacrifice a TM for that.
PS. You get staryou from the islands, you need surf to get there and that's when you've usually beaten all but the last two gyms.
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OhforfSake
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posted November 30, 2012 04:26 PM |
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I admit I never did play gen I. Though I'm a bit surprised you aren't level 13 at the first gym. In gen II, if I only used my starter, the trainers on the way, not including the sprout tower, would always get me to around level 13-14, iIRC. So I just assumed the same level was reachable in gen I, especially considering how every gym leader has higher level pkmn's, than in gen II.
I didn't notice there only was 10 pp's, though usually normal tm's aren't very valuable anyway, so I don't imagine it's much of a sacrifice. Again it of course depends on what tm it exactly is.
Anyway, staryu/slowbro was just a suggestion. I imagine anything part psychic, part something else, would be optimal against Sabrina, and then one could always just use a water or ground type against Blaine.
Anyway, now I feel like trying to complete pokemon Gen I.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 01, 2012 03:51 PM |
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It's not much trying since it's so easy. It is pokemon after all.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 02, 2012 11:01 PM |
bonus applied by Doomforge on 03 Dec 2012. |
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Indeed. Anyway, the low pp's on Bulbasaur didn't really matter. At low levels tackle was fine, there was plenty of pp's for gym battles and I eventually gave him cut and then he learned razor leaf.
I checked out what part psychic types I could get before Sabrina, and I found out I could get a Jynx, so I went with Bulbasaur and Jynx.
As I needed someone to surf, I decided on Nidoking due to good offensive stats in both special (one stat in gen 1) and attack. Not to mention a great choice to deal with Blaine as well as Giovanni. Also slightly nostalgia related, as Nidoking was one of the first pokemons I ever trained up to "high level" (which at that time meant around level 40), back when pokemon was played on a gameboy. I thought it looked cool and I used it to challenge my friends Golem (same level range). I thought we both would think the match would be awesome, considering I had given Nidoking a 1HKO move, the 'cool' Iron Tail move, Rest and Sleep talk, meaning I could both heal and wreak havoc. My friends disagreed in this being cool and was generally upset after the battle. Mainly because Nidoking turned out to be weak against Ground, something I didn't know back then, but after using rest, as horn drill of course missed, sleep talk kept on re-picking rest and my friends sub-average magnitudes kept on required 2-3 hits to knock down my Nidoking, while had it just hit a 9 I'm sure it'd had taken out all hp's. My friend thought I did this on purpose, not realizing sleep talk picks at random, and I didn't get what he was so upset about, as he had the upper hand in my eyes. Of course he didn't know that.
I actually lost my first match to the rival, I think he got a crit. Likewise, while searching for a male Nidoran I lost again to my rival.
I didn't expect to meet him there, I had purposefully avoided pidgey's with Bulbasaur, because I didn't want to go to town and heal every second battle. Then he shows up with a Pidgey at a higher level than my Bulbasaur.
The first gym went easy, using Bulbasaur, and I already had a Nidoking before gym 2. After that Nidoking solely trashed (both literally, used the move trash, and figuratively, defeated) the rival every time, except for one. Gym 2 also went easy enough, though no doubt Starmie is one tough cookie. I think I already had Ivysaur now.
I got a little lost, rather often, to be honest, and I never did find and defeat Moltres. I suspect he was in the house on Cinnabar Island.
I found gym 3, and here Nidoking as well as Ivysaur would have a very easy time.
The same can be said about Gym 4, where I now had a Venusaur, though before challenging it, I noticed I could pick up Hitmonlee (poison types are really good against fighting types), and I could also afford a Dratini. Though it wasn't planned, I decided to go with those two as well. At least for now. Hitmonlee mainly because it was one of the first members of my last final batch of pokemons on the gameboy. All at level 90-100, Hitmonlee, I'm quite sure, was the third to reach level 100. A solid starter against the battle tower and their Hyper Beams in Gen II, by using Endure + Reversal. Foresight vs. ghost types, not that it ever was enough. Dratini, because I've never actually trained a Dragonite on the gameboy, using it during the game.
I got again a little lost after Gym 4, but after taking out the rocket hideout, getting the silph scope and then getting the poke flute, Hitmonlee one-hitted the two times Snorlax and I could proceed to gym 5. This meant I could also finally get a rod beyond the old rod, so I could catch Poliwag, evolve it to Poliwhirl and trade it for a Jynx at Cerulean city.
Turns out Gym 5 wasn't solely poison types, which I thought, and which again would have had been easy to deal with. I also met some psychic types (Hypno and Kadabra, I guess), which Jynx easily took care of. It was also nice with the experience boost from a traded type. Ice + Psychic was really good against the poison, flying and psychic types I ran into.
I checked out the safari zone and when I saw a Kangaskhan, a type which you get very very late in Gen II, I couldn't resist catch it, as I hadn't trained one before. Thereby completing the team consisting of Hitmonlee, Jynx, Venusaur, Kangaskhan, Dragonite and Nidoking.
Jynx was supposed to be used against Sabrina@Gym6, but I was training my new Kangaskhan, who'd already destroyed the rockets, and suddenly he had demolished Sabrina's gym all by himself. At least Jynx would still be useable against the elite 4, I thought. Resistant against ice, effective against fighting, effective against poison, and effective against dragons. Around this point, I decided to stop train Hitmonlee, as I found him a bit boring in this generation. I did feed him some rare candies though, planning on letting him be my lead against the Ice trainer of the elite 4.
As I went towards Gym 7 I once again got a little lost, though when I finally reached Blaine, I won very easily. Like planned, I used Nidoking against Blaine, who one-shotted everything with Earthquake.
I got quickly through gym 8, once again, as planned, Nidoking took down Giovanni solely. Using surf against the rock/ground types and Earthquake against the rest. I don't recall what I used against his Dugtrio.
The victory road was also a breeze, and I was finally at the elite 4. So far, Nidoking had really been the star of my team and Kangaskhan had also been rather good. Dragonair had just evolved into Dragonite and apart from Hitmonlee in the low 40's, the rest was from level 50 (Jynx) to level 55 (Dragonite). I didn't buy any revive, ether, elixer or healing items, but I had saved every single one I'd gotten throughout the game for this last part.
Despite being 10-15 levels lower than the opposition, Hitmonlee did very well against the Ice trainer. The elite 4 apparently was generally coded bad, not only in this battle, for the first pokemon used a move with no relevant effect (don't remember which move it was). This allowed for Hitmonlee to build up its attack stat using meditate and then proceed to kick some arse. Though he fell against the last opposition, Lapras, I found he did very well. As Lapras was low on health and Kangaskhan outspeeded it, it was only a formality to end the match.
For the second opponent, Bruno (since he's in Gen II I know this guys name), the fighting type trainer, I used Venusaur. Against onix, it was easy to build up power using growth. Then I razor leafed away and defeated everyone using Venusaur.
So I didn't get to use Jynx for neither the first, nor the second Elite 4 member. So far, I hadn't used Jynx as planned, at all, but now finally, it was time. I honestly didn't expect the third member, to have 3 ghost types, and once again the bad AI showed itself, as they tried to use dream eater on an awake Jynx.
Psychic for the win and on to Lance.
Again I used Jynx, turns out I should have used the blizzard tm in stead of letting her keep Ice Punch. Under all circumstances Jynx took down the first 4 of Lance's pokemons really well, but then fell to an Aerodactyl. Then it was finally Dragonite's turn, who took out Aerodactyl and then Lance sent out a freaking level 60, I think, Dragonite, while mine is level 56. Expecting to be one-hitted, if it had an ice attack, my Dragonite freaking outspeeds it oneshots it with Ice Beam.
Then it was time for the last battle, and the final encounter with the Rival. So far Nidoking had solely taken care of the Rival every single time, so why not just do that again. I hadn't used any of the items, consisting of healings/revives/etc. I had brought in with me against the elite 4. I suppose that's the difference of being almost equal level to the elite 4 and being 10 level's below. So for the final battle, I had an almost full hp Venusuar, around 75% hp Dragonite, and a full health Nidoking and Kangaskhan.
Nidoking proceeded as usual to wipe the floor with the rival if it was not that it actually got defeated this one time, after taking out 4 of the Rivals pokemons, it lost to Exegcutor. No problem though, as Kangaskhan wiped the floor with the rest, saving a rock slide for the final opposition, a Charizard.
As I wrote before, I saved up some items, including tm's, and the item system in this game is horrible. There's only a limited amount of space on both the computer and on the player, however both tm's, hm's, essential items and general items takes up the same space. Some of these (essential and hm's) can't be dumped, while others are good to save for later use. This was a pain throughout the last 2 gyms of the game, but as I used a lot of the tm's before the final stage, I got sufficient space after all.
Anyway, it was indeed easy. I'd say even easier than gen ii, but maybe it's more to due with age. It was at least nice to have tried to complete the game now, and I guess yellow is the more difficult one then.. for a pokemon game, that is.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 03, 2012 07:14 PM |
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Nice post 
I always used Nidoking in gen 1 & 2.
In gen 1 he was kinda gamebreaking for 50% of the game. You could get him VERY fast (evolve Nidorino with a Moon stone - both come very early in the game), and he was compatible with most TMs even in RBY era. Which made him super-versatile, thus used a lot, which meant he towered over AI pokemon in levels a lot. = Super easy game. I always owned Brock (1st gym leader) with double kick Nidorino
In gen 2, he still was easy to get, as versatile as ever.
In later gens he totally fell out of favor because the game became flooded with powerful pokemon & the starters were more versatile as well with dual type.
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 03, 2012 07:59 PM |
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Psychic gym always goes easy with any attack pokemon that's fast enough. Pidgeot(nneds to be thought a TM since wing attack is 35 though), dodrio, fearow, dugtrio, etc.
I think I've never lost to the rival, I didn't even know you could lose the first fight, he always seems to switch to status effect moves if the next could kill you. Bulbasaur is the only one that loses to it's rival type in the first match by default btw.
The second time meeting him is a really tough one if you just wander into it. The pidgey is tough, but in first gen gust is normal type so it's not so bad.
Moltres is in victory road cave, just before the elite 4.
How come your jynx was able to deal with the hypno at gym 5? Did he just get lost on trying to hypnotise you over and over or did you go train it before?
Other killers besides nidoking are raichu(thunder+surf, need stadium/yellow though) and starmie(thunder+surf+psychic+blizzard, get too late, sadly, but solos elite four which is kinda awesome).
Or blastoise with earthquake ice beam, surf and fissure but that's just lame.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 03, 2012 11:02 PM |
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Thanks for the appreciation.
The Hypno actually tried to headbutt my Jynx, but I'd already trained it on a lot of common trainers I skipped on purpose, because I knew I was going to get an addition to the party. The combination of psychic + ice was excellent vs. these guys just outside of Fuschia on both sides, one side using poison, the other using grass, flying, etc.
I always disliked how there were so many strong water types and not many good grass types, at least not in the early gen's. So I really enjoyed having a team without a single water type for once and with a grass type.
Back when I had a favorite anything, I'd typically consider the rhino (together with the eagle and the scorpion) as one of my favorite animals. Therefore, I kinda like pokemons like Nidoking and Rhydon, but I'd already used Rhydon in another game. I didn't even consider to use double kick against Brock. Though Onix has a lot of defense, I suppose with its low hp and no ground moves it'd work rather well. I also met a Pikachu in the forest before pewter city, so I suppose it could have been used against gym 2, given Charmander was picked as the starter, though I think there's something about Pikachu being very fragile and slower than Starmie. In any case a surfing Raichu sounds awesome, and would certainly bring fear to the typical ground counters, maybe except for a Dugtrio. Then it'd only need something to deal with grass types.
One of the reasons I didn't play yellow and was hesitant about blue as well, was that I was afraid my team would be severely lower level than the gym leaders / pokemon league pokemons, which I'd really have disliked. As such I may have over leveled a bit, e.g. bulbasaur was level 14 when I defeated Brock, though I didn't start training Nidoran before after Pewter City. I do however find it a bit cheap to over level. Had I only went with the intended original trio of Venusaur, Jynx and Nidoking, then my pokemons would probably have been at a way too high level, low 60's at least, in stead of low to mid 50's.
In the end it was however really nice that throughout the game, my pokemons were roughly equal level to the gym leaders as well as the elite 4 pokemons, but that also made the common trainers walkovers.
I guess I feared Sabrina a lot, because psychic types don't seem to have any serious weakness in gen I, and Alakazam is both fast and a hard puncher. But because Kangaskhan was almost at level with Alakazam, it turned out to be a walk in the park.
I may have been remembering wrong, but I was pretty certain that the game said gust was super effective. What is funny about gen I, which I didn't realise, was that there seem to be something funny about dual types. E.g. Tentacruel resisted my grass attacks.
The ability to lose some battles without having to redo them was actually nice for a change. It's the same with the first rival battle in gen II, but I'm not aware of any other battles like these. Both times I lost to the rival, he didn't show up afterwards, however when I had all 8 badges he re-appeared the same place as I had fought him before I got the first badge. Though I did go back there after I got the first badge, and he didn't re-appear, I wonder if he appears twice there, or more times. Not that it really matters.
Edit: Oh, btw. I never did manage to find the move deleter, so Venusaur was stuck with cut.
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Jabanoss
Promising
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Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 04, 2012 09:05 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 21:08, 04 Dec 2012.
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Wow, you guys really thought a lot while playing Pokemon. When I encountered a hard gym or opponent I just trained my Pokemons even more. I thought I was so clever when I would just spend long hours just leveling my guys way past that amount "that they were supposed to have" at a certain location.
Nidoking has always been my favorite, First off he starts of really simple and cute, and then he somehow ends up as the biggest and meanest dinosaur-rat/rabbit.
Second is his amazing ability to learn TMs, DF could that covered rather nicely.
Thirdly, he's a poison type. While I don't care about poison attacks that very much, being immune to being poisoned can be real awesome at times. (And being Ground isn't that bad either.)
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 04, 2012 09:45 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 21:49, 04 Dec 2012.
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Raichu can get fly the same way he gets surf. You can have both, I think. Never tried that though.
Waking up takes a whole turn. Gust is normal type attack. Wing attack power is 35. All trapping moves are the strongest in the game, wrap, bind, fire spin, clamp, block the opponent from attacking. Psychic is immune to ghost. Night shade works on normals. Fly/normal is weak to fighting, water/poison is strong against grass and practically all dual types are messed up in some way.
Rival doesn't reappear, it's actually a measure in yellow. If you beat him everytime he will go for jolteon but if you lose to him once he will have flareon and more times he has vaporeon.
If you really want to mess psychics up you can always take jolteon with pin missile, that might require a ridiculous level though, 48 in blue and red. I think it's 36 in yellow though. It usually onehits same level kadabras and alakazams. If your beedrill is faster than their psychics it does even better but usually it's too slow.
But since hypno and slowbro are the only ones with decent staying power any attack type pokemon will do.
It evens out pretty well with the XP. If you have 6 pokemon, you're around 40-45 and if you have only one 70-75. With elite 4 being at 50-65 it makes for a pretty decent opponent barring starmie, nidoking and such. Considering you play set not shift. It's too bad all the enemies AI SUCKS.
There is no move deleter, that's why krabby rules!.
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Kareeah_Indaga
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posted December 05, 2012 12:37 AM |
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Quote:
There is no move deleter,
^That's one of the big things I hate not having. No Move Deleter, no breeding for trading pre-evolved 'mons, and if I recall correctly you had to change the box by hand.  On the other hand, I still kind of miss being able to catch Moltres or Lugia and cheer because I caught a Legendary, rather than restart because the Nature was bad.
Something I still wish they'd do is bump up the number of moves a Pokemon can learn. Four was fine for the early games, but now there are four times as many moves to learn from, and a lot more things to affect. I think that's one of the reasons I've been having so much fun in Helnith; that little irritation went away.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 05, 2012 03:41 AM |
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I actually for long wanted to try a beedrill. Back in gen II early stages, butterfree seemed like the most powerful thing ever. It had both sleep moves, psychic moves, flying moves, etc. Of course that was only because of the early evolution combined with the area it comes from, where there aren't that much challenging it. However beedrill is just the same, one would imagine, except it doesn't have sleep moves, yet I never trained one.
One thing I loathed more than the lack of a move deleter (Razor Leaf was awesome, so forced to have Cut didn't annoy me that much), was that I could not figure out how to set the skills, so my main attack was first. When I battle walkovers, I'd like to be able to just *CLICK* *CLICK* *CLICK*, and not having to choose the right skill, etc.
I personally think more than 4 moves could fast be exploited a lot. Helnith is after all more like a war zone, with battles against a lot stronger pokemons than what you ever see in the game.. at least at the groups current level. It's just because we're all a bunch of noobs that we haven't taken better advantage of the 6 moves limit. Stuff like chansey transforming into shuckle, or if struggle worked like in the game, could really be devastating, and that without lacking strong attacking moves.
In a way it's a bit like might and magic, which I'm currently trying to solo with a vampire. If you're allowed to prepare enough, any challenge can be over come, and in pokemon, the more moves, the more preparation you've. The funny thing is that he's actually doing better solo than when I had a group of 5.
Edit: Though I think it'd be cool if they at least implemented it as an option, so one could pick how many moves could be held at the same time, and then one could by oneself find a proper balance in accordance to one's game style.
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Kareeah_Indaga
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posted December 06, 2012 03:16 AM |
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Quote:
I personally think more than 4 moves could fast be exploited a lot. Helnith is after all more like a war zone, with battles against a lot stronger pokemons than what you ever see in the game.. at least at the groups current level. It's just because we're all a bunch of noobs that we haven't taken better advantage of the 6 moves limit. Stuff like chansey transforming into shuckle, or if struggle worked like in the game, could really be devastating, and that without lacking strong attacking moves.
Yes, but consider:
1.) While the player would have 6 moves/Pokemon, so would the NPCs.
2.) A good portion of the crazy stuff we do in Helnith is house-ruled. EX: in the games, Mirror Move and similar will only trigger if your opponent uses an attack on you—and it does have to be ON YOU, if they use a self-buff move like Swords Dance, or attack your partner but not you, Mirror Move fails. So Transforming into things or using their buffs doesn't work most of the time. I dropped those limitations because they are silly given that you have to survive an attack to use it already, and those limitations aren't documented anywhere in-game.
3.) Single, Double, and Triple (+Rotational) battles all have different styles and tactical requirements. Heal Pulse, for example, is utterly USELESS during a one-on-one fight, while adjacent/non-adjacent is not a consideration for anything except Triple. But you will end up in Double/Triple/etc. battles, and need to be able to plan for them and fight in them.
4.) HMs. While the game developers seem to be aware of this, and have taken steps to ensure that you don't have to have them prepared 24/7 (thank you original Black and White), they are still a factor and can still easily take up an entire Pokemon's moveset by themselves if you decide to go exploring.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 06, 2012 06:26 AM |
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HM's should clearly be the exception. I don't understand what it adds to the game to force a player to use certain moves, and on the same time limit some of their pokemons. Surf is of course great, but even if all HM's were great, I still don't get the point.
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Kareeah_Indaga
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posted December 06, 2012 01:43 PM |
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Quote:
HM's should clearly be the exception. I don't understand what it adds to the game to force a player to use certain moves, and on the same time limit some of their pokemons. Surf is of course great, but even if all HM's were great, I still don't get the point.
Keeps players from getting to certain places too early in the game, mostly.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 06, 2012 02:12 PM |
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Well, that's true. In Gen II, the only game I ever really went all out exploring in, Cut was required to travel from Azeala to Goldenrod, Surf to get to Cianwood, and Waterfall to get to the Pokemon League. But more often they seem to just throw in a character that blocks you from the path they don't want you to go yet. Though annoying, it at least does not force me to have HM slaves / unwanted moves.
It reminds me, in the hack Jaba linked to, which is a remake of Pokemon Crystal in Gen III, with added stuff, Abra's Teleport does not Teleport to the last visited or used Pokemon Center. In stead it transports you following a specific pattern depending on which Pokemon Center you last visisted (not used). E.g. if you visited the Pokemon Center in Vermillion City, Teleport would transport you to Blackthorn City (If you then visit the Pokemon Center in Blackthorn City, Teleport would transport you to Lake of Rage).
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