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| Thread: Creature Experience |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 23, 2009 10:12 AM |
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Creature Experience
A new idea came to me some days ago. It might perhaps fit better in my other thread, A realistic H6, since it is a very realistic idea, but since that thread one is an old thread I decided to make a new one. This time I got an idea about creature experience, as the title may show
The basics of this idea is that creatures in Heroes get an amount of "experience" after each battle depending on how much they were used in the battles. Your creatures might reach new "levels" resulting in small bonuses, as a result of their combat expertise. These bonuses may be +1 attack or defense, hit point, bonus to spell power etc. There are a lot of bonuses, that may be given to creatures and acctually the imagination sets the limits here.
These small bonuses is of course additional to those from your hero. Also a part of the idea is that newly recruited creatures have lower combat experience than creatures that has been in your Kingdom army for 1 month.
Now this might sound a bit odd, because unlike your hero, you rarely have just one creature in your stack, which is why we need a way to make the experience system work with stacks with more than one creature. I have not completed this system yet.
With regard to shooters or damage spell casters the amount of experience gained should be lower than that of meelee attackers, due to their higher killing efficiency, just as shooters and damage spell casters are harder to but down and thus giving more experience.
I have not completed this system yet, i am working on it. Perhaps you guys can help me with this. I just wanted to post the idea, since i don't have time to finish it at the moment. There might be balance issues concerning this issue which i have not thought of and there might be other reasons for why this is a bad idea for gameplay. Input and other ideas are most welcome.
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 23, 2009 11:27 AM |
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Creature experience was in WoG, and I think it was one of the best features, so I'll support it here.
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Ednaguy
Supreme Hero
My water just broke! No, wait.
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posted April 23, 2009 03:09 PM |
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Yes, I like the creature expirience idea, I just hope someone manage to make it more balanced than it was in WoG 
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"Edna, there's a special, tiny, tiny place in hell, waiting just for you... "
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 23, 2009 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
Creature experience was in WoG, and I think it was one of the best features, so I'll support it here.
Seconded.
The idea of unit experience is quite intriguing and could be coupled with other ideas like unit ability trees or maybe even real skills for the units as for the heroes.
To give an example, you could have ability trees like:
Assault > Cleave > Double Strike
Magic Proof 25 % > Magic Proof 50 % > Magic Proof 75 % > Magic Proof 100 %
Where your unit would be able to upgrade an existing skill to a superior one with sufficient experience.
Also one could have real skills for units, which could be mastered as Basic, Advanced and Expert level and with appropriate perks, just like Hero has.
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What will happen now?
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted April 23, 2009 07:54 PM |
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Very good idea!
the experience also can be used to able upgrades:
a "lizardman hunter" starts with "living creature" and "short range" (that makes him deal low ranged demage at long range).
on 2nd lvl gains "no melle penalty"
on 3rd lvl gains "alertness" that gives him a bonus in initiative on the first round of a combat
on lvl 4 you choose between "normal range" (loses the short range penalty) or "swamp tracker" (the lizardman gets +1 or 2 speed bonus when figting on swamp terrain): if you shoose normal range you can upgrade (if you has built the... "lizardman ah... home UPG.") the lizardman into a "lizardman archer" -.- very creative name isnt is? or if you choose swamp tracker the lizarman can become a "lizarman scout"!
on lvl 5 the archer gets erm... ah... double shot? and the scout gets something like unlimetd retaliation... i dont know...
but this has a big problem: the creatures that you recruit should start in lvl 1... and if you has a "stack" it means that all creatures a 'equal'... in a pratic situation:
You has 10 lizardman huntar in lvl 3, you go to the city and you will recrui lvl 1...
a posible solution is that you can recruit creatures in the same lvl of the stack that you has... but it doesn sounds good...
ecept for this is a very good ideia!
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted April 23, 2009 08:50 PM |
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Extremly nice idea
I think this will let the creature to also upgrade the stats of the creatures using an specific number of EXP points,besides the new abilities which that creaure will gain (LordGodric's idea)
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 23, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Great feedback
I didn't know there was something like this in WoG. Never tried it. I use to stick to the complete version of H3.
This creature experience idea has a lot of potential. Both Alcibiades and LordGodric came up with some nice suggestions. Great
The hard thing about making such a system is deciding how the system will work when you recruit new creatures. These would obviously have to start at the lowest level, since their comat expertise is 0 (literally). Perhaps this has to be done the mid-way.
An example of how it could work:
Let's say you start a game with 50 peasants. And let's say your 50 peasants need 1000 xp to reach second level, and 2000 xp to reach third level.
You fight with those 50 peasants until they have gained 2000 xp (third xp level) Then you reqruit 50 new ones. These start with 0 xp. Then when you combine those peasants to 100 the xp level decrease by 1, because:
you still have the same amount of total xp (2000), but because there's twice as many peasants, they need twice the xp (4000) to keep your xp level. Therefore the 2000 xp with 50 peasants is only half the required xp with 100 peasants.
(This will of course be calculated by your computer )
I hope this sounded logical to you...
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 23, 2009 11:19 PM |
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Again that's exactly how it works in WoG. I'm a little uncertain about some of the abilities (eg. increasing levels of magic-resistance), because I do feel that WoG went a bit overboard in that respect, but then that's just my opinion.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted April 24, 2009 05:13 PM |
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I don't like this idea. It would complicate the game a lot.
Only heroes can gain experience and get stronger. If not they wouldn't really be heroes. They would just be generals and we could call HOMM GOMM. It would be even worse with the participation idea from HOMM4 .
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 25, 2009 12:45 AM |
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You're in the minority stankelbenet, besides, there isn't a crossover, creatures would have a limited level and no skills (only abilities, and no choices about them). There's also nothing wrong with heroes on the battlefield, it just wasn't implemented very well in H4 (but then, the whole skill system was revamped, so problems were inevitable).
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted April 25, 2009 10:20 AM |
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I know im in minority. Im actually gatting used to it.
I don't have any problem with the HOMM4 way of heroes fighting. I was just saying that the hero wouldn't have much difference from the creatures. He/she would e fighting the same way as them. He/she would get stronger nearly the same way as them. I wouldn't see any benefit in having a hero since I couldn't stack them. I can stack creatures and they too get stronger after battles so the strongest army would be one without a hero.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 25, 2009 10:42 AM |
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Ah, but creatures wouldn't get skills or spells, and very few abilities, so while an army would be stronger without a hero (if the hero had no skills), a hero with expert Attack and Defence could easily turn a battle around, whether or not he was an effective fighter himself. On top of that, I seriously doubt if an army would be allowed to operate without a hero (except as a caravan that got ambushed perhaps), so there would always be at least one hero with any army.
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2009 04:56 PM |
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I'll sit in the minority with you stankelbenet.
I hate the idea of stack experience. your troops already benefit from the experience gained. When I attack something I want to know what I'm fighting, I don't want to attack someone just to find out even though I had twice the number of troops he whollopped me because his troops were level 7 and mine were level 2.
How am I supposed to know what I can fight? Let's K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)
what I wouldn't mind is some sort of training where if your peasants earned 2000 xp then they could be promoted to swordsmen or something, but thats an entirely different subject all together. also begs the question how did an imp become a horned demon (pokemon morph style maybe)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 25, 2009 11:58 PM |
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Draco, if you place the H5 skill system alongside the H3 skill system, guess what, it's a hell of a lot more complicated, which kind of wrecks the KISS principle. There would also not be 'that' much change between levels, probably 5-10%, so it would be more like 3:2 or 5:4 than 2:1, and even at those levels, a competent commander will often be able to overcome the odds.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 25, 2009 11:59 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 00:01, 26 Apr 2009.
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Erhm... I think you guys misunderstood.
I never meant to promote any creatures to ones of a higher tier...
What I meant is simply giving them minor bonuses as a result of combat expertise, for example 1 initiative, 1 speed or 1 attack. It is not like you don't know what you're attacking... The bonuses won't be that great... It is not very much, but it's always something, and for me, it'll make the game much more interresting.
And btw, i don't know what you guys thought I meant, but I didn't mean that creatures should be able to acheavelike 20 levels, like your hero... I was thinking of making creatures able to achieve 4 or 5 levels, which of course will be harder to achieve, as you play.
This is not a new way to make extremely powerful creatures. At least it was not meant that way. It was a suggestion to make combat experience a little like real and to add an effect which favours those creatures which are used in combat.
And remember, the bonuses in which I talk about will not be overpowered!
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 26, 2009 12:07 AM |
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I understood perfectly, Draco apparently didn't though.
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2009 12:32 AM |
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Edited by Draco at 00:34, 26 Apr 2009.
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I understood completely what you meant, but even +1 initiative can be the difference between winning with no losses and losing the main fight. first strike is a huge advantage in that case.
or lets say you got +1 movement at level 3 or something, well that means you will strike first against a similar army.
The way wog does it IMHO sucks, thats what I was referring to because its a something many of us are already familiar with.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 26, 2009 12:51 AM |
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Well, Draco I do not know how WoG is, but I accept your word, that it sucks. But I do not want to create an imbalanced or overpowered feature. Just a little boost to a few stats once in a while.
Let's for instance say that there are three achieveable creature levels. Then I would suggest that the first is achieved quite early, normally in an early game play. The next, perhaps in a midgame state, and the last I think should only be achieveable a few times. the creature levels has nothing to do with hero levels, but let's say a normal creature level-up is when you hero is level 5, level 15 and level 30.
Did I make things a bit clearer?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 26, 2009 01:45 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 01:54, 26 Apr 2009.
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That's your opinion Draco, mine's quite the opposite, I reckon the way it was done in WoG was quite good (some of the abilities were a bit overblown), one of the best features of the mod. You had to win quite a large number of fights to get much of a bonus, so it was hardly overpowering, unless there was already a disparity of forces or skills.
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2009 10:57 PM |
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Quote:
Well, Draco I do not know how WoG is, but I accept your word, that it sucks. But I do not want to create an imbalanced or overpowered feature. Just a little boost to a few stats once in a while.
Let's for instance say that there are three achieveable creature levels. Then I would suggest that the first is achieved quite early, normally in an early game play. The next, perhaps in a midgame state, and the last I think should only be achieveable a few times. the creature levels has nothing to do with hero levels, but let's say a normal creature level-up is when you hero is level 5, level 15 and level 30.
Did I make things a bit clearer?
Okay let's say there were three achievable levels per unit. it doesn't really matter how long it takes to get them, but they can't be so strong as a normal army can't kill them.
The WOG method works like this (correct me if I'm wrong as I turn it off normally) you get some XP every battle and after a certain amount you go up a level, your troops gets a '^' (for 1 level or a sword for 5 levels) on their icon. if you right click on your portrait then it tells you what your bonuses are. thats all fine and dandy, I believe some of the bonuses were a little extreme, I think Black Dragons got no retaliation at some point.
If this were to be implemented I would like to see it done similar to Fantasy Empires where after a certain amount of fights your troops become Elite, or you can have them 'Veteran' like in the Civilization/Colonization series'. It has to be something that you can see on the map otherwise you have no idea what you will be fighting.
I suggest you install WOG on your computer, and play around with the creature XP, see what you like about it, and what can be improved.
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